What PvP game has the highest skill ceiling?

are you trying to imply cs doesn't have a skill ceiling so it's a very high skilled game and you can improve at it indefinitely

Playing against organized teams is a completely different game than PUGs

Anon, that's just you being a sperg.
People generally actually do get better at a game they play.
You are trying to excuse not being world champion at every game ever because you envisage everyone else being a sweaty tryhard that nolifes games.
Because that's the only way you can cope with losing; belittling everyone else.

cs probably has the highest skill ceiling of any game but it's team skill

I can't play hunt showdown anymore because the game thinks I'm 6 stars after 1 good game and make me play against actual autistic sweat lords for the rest of the night. I hate MMR based matchmaking.

You won't gaslight me shill

skill based matchmaking work. just play like you want to instead of being a btich

Splatoon, unironically. It's a shame that it's made by Nintendo so they're going to keep marketing it as the kiddy shooter where you paint the floor.

bump

Team based games don't rely on personal skill

What a retarded statement.

Rust

poker

CS is retarded garbage that only became popular because Anton and the other turd world trash could play it on their potato PCs.

Gartic

CS has been popular for decades for good reason.

Quake 3

Somehow none of them worked like that when I was a kid we just button mashed

When you were a kid you probably weren't such a salty little bitch, could take a loss without throwing a fit, and just enjoyed playing the game.

Rust, hitscan games are for pathetic casuals and the other mechanics give it enough depth to really do some insane tactics.

Dota 2 is a wide margin ahead of every other pvp game ever made. I'd say for FPS probably The Finals for RTS aoe2 and for fighting games it depends on what you consider difficult, long combos, hard inputs etc would drastically change the answer

every fps game is full of cheaters

some videogames are like sports. if we take your comment and put it in a sporting context, something like
"i played a lot of basketball when i was younger just kinda fooling around, moving, shooting in a mediocre kinda way, and i was pretty good. now i'm older and still want to play basketball and find that my adult competition actually plays seriously and has honed skills that i didn't. i wish everyone was still playing at an elementary level"
we'd see how ridiculous your statement is. it wouldn't hold up. in real life, if an adult male lapsed out of a sport they enjoyed as an kid, they usually aren't super salty. i guess some of the time they are, but it's a rarity.

So you're upset because most people are better than you at videogames?
Actually, why does that even anger you? Do you feel like you're entitled to a high rank?

Wise post.

Only two anon got it right dota 2 deadlock then cs after you got league starcraft valorant any of those can be considered as the highest skill ceiling

Quack Champions (RIP)

It's funny how people play at average MMR and cry that everybody there is some sweaty tryhard with 10k hours using all sorts of obscure tech. Then you ask them for a replay and every single time the other dude is barely any better than they are and at most just isn't spazzing out as hard. Niggers literally can't imagine a scenario where somebody beats them fair and square. They must have thousands of hours in the game and be playing like their life depends on it while Anon is chill, just wants to have fun, and doesn't even care about winning (that's why he's fuming over the other guy playing to win and insulting him for being better at the game).

Tf2 and Nintendo slop aren't sports but games like cs and dota are more like real sports then anything

trying_to_ambush_Brazilians.webm

I'm kinda curious about about the hardest fighting game series. I grew up playing Tekken and I'm horrible at every other series I've tried.

esloid championing assfaggots

Pottery

Nah, 25+ years ago, the typical competitive community really was just that ignorant (not in an insulting way, but literally unaware because fundamental concepts were not yet understood, but now they're basically entry level knowledge).
Fighting game circles barely understood most properties, didn't truly have a grasp on let alone access to convenient frame data, and would come up with misconceptions like "priority" to describe what they thought was happening. It would take them years to even discover very effective techniques that make everyone wonder why they didn't think of it sooner, and to discard misunderstandings.
RTS and FPS competitive circles were a little more in touch with the mechanics since it was a PC-focused genre with lots of modding so they could dig into the code and watch demo replays, but even then they mostly relied more on consensus and strategies slowly developed.

Nowadays, a game isn't even out of beta and people can lock in on objective best characters/weapons/strategies that dominate the "meta" with an almost absolute certainty, and it will only get disrupted by the devs outright changing the parameters, or someone who is so good that he wins with a new strategy and everyone starts to copy him. The only notable late disruptions come from someone using a weak thing in a different effective way, and it only goes unnoticed for so long because nobody used it.

Naraka: Bladepoint

come up with misconceptions like "priority" to describe what they thought was happening

Button priority was absolutely a thing in a fuckton of fighting games, hell they can still be a thing sometimes

Yeah, I've seen what anons consider cheating.

Easiest genre to cheat in lol

Yeah, enemy is always cheating and im always losing because of bad teammates

fpbp
Only someone who has played modern dota can understand why that is

Because you have to babysit brazilians?

wow arena
bloodline champions/battlerite

fuck no, the matchmaking heavily dictates if you're gonna win or not. its either get timmies on your team and lose or the other team is full of timmies and you get a free win

Runescape wildy

Is dota really that much more skill intensive than league?

This does not matter to the average player. The average player in a fighting game still barely knows what's going on. You can easily mash with Honda and do well without knowing a thing. People were losing to an Eddy bot in T8 that literally just mashed one button endlessly. You don't even really get anti-aired in SF until master rank. You can still button mash. Just don't expect to be the next Daigo doing it just like you wouldn't have been decades ago.

Brood war

blc was great. br not so much
wow arena was good in uh, mop i guess? theres too much imbalanced classes/specs for it to be taken seriously tho

Micro wise no, with a couple major exceptions most heroes are pretty easy and mechanically simple. Knowledge wise significantly more, there's way, way, wayyyy more shit to keep track of and objectives and when to take them are not nearly as clear cut as league. Most of Dota's difficulty comes from decision making which isn't really intuitive to learn, you can't just lab combos or practice aim and be good to go.

Siege

Because the game is retardedly bloated by how flexible the gameplay is and the fact all top players have played that garbage for like 20.000 hours, and every couple of years the gameplay gets more bloated with more content
The amount of characters and what they can do with their skills, talents, facets, items and neutral items(over 200 items) makes everything autistically hard

perfectly said

thats also a good one

dead by daylight. i have 50 hours in the game and i still get my ass whooped when i play survivor but when i look at youtubers with 12000 hours played they either whoop the killers ass or throw the game for a meme build

Quake and Unreal Tournament.
We lost real competitive a long time ago for counter strike click on head keep crosshair level in one place garbage.

Honestly I'd say sim/simcade racing games like Gran Turismo 7

Starcraft / SC2.

Wear wrist weights. Play VR shooters.

Somehow TF2

TF2 demonstrates it isn't a bad thing.

TF2 was fun when I was just getting into it and it was fun to jump, shoot rocket, repeat, and it the fact that thousands of hours later I start learning about trimping, caber crouching, etc.

Those little tech points don't make the game unplayable for new or casual players, they make it fun for people who need depth.

I can't imagine CS having a higher skill ceiling than PubG.

Any hero shooter that requires game knowledge of how each hero works is objectively harder than a typical military shooter.

its higher than pubg based on grenade lineups alone

Our maps are so small that people are able to game theory throwables across the whole thing.

Meanwhile, pubg has more throwable options, and single maps that are the size of your entire map pool combined.

Requiring more rote learning=higher skill cap

Not that simple. That reasoning leads to making an unfun and convoluted game.

pure technical skill? StarCraft Brood War
teamwork skill? I would tie DOTA2 and CSGO

yea and the lack of size proves my point: cs is much more optimizable and players at the highest level need dozens of pixel precise lineups per map
pubg is more of an improvisational thing which makes it more inaccessible to beginners

It'd probably be better to differentiate skill ceiling vs breadth of skills required

Worms Shopper

Damn dude, you're incredibly retarded.

Fewer game states means more skill

Reducing a game to rote means more skill

Improvisation isn't skill

It would seem you are a brainlet.

if you are that well informed why dont you compare the training process of pro cs teams vs pro pubg players and also elaborate that shroud, a guy hyped for his incredible pubg skills, couldnt cut it in tier 1 cs

Agreed

Street Fighter

tac shooters aren't even the highest skill ceiling in FPS lol

1.6

*elegant not bad*

Not the highest but Build filtered billions of people.

GunZ the Duel. Too bad if it was brought back you'd have AHK fags making scripts for all the moves and doing some other minmaxing bullshit to ruin the game and meta fagging it to the point of it being unfun

street fighter/brood war/quake are the holy trinity of high skill ceiling gaming

every other game that also has a reasonably high skill ceiling dumbs down fundamental elements and bloats the game up with a fuck ton of knowledge checks instead

That's fair, I mean I actually like playing this way too and enjoy these games because of it.

brood war probably

Good morning sirs. Pubag amazin super duper skills games westerners cant play like us hindu gods yes

it's deadlock and maybe splatoon

Compare the training of a game that's pro-scene is more than a decade older with a larger audience to a newer game with a smaller audience.

Why not throw those CS players into a Halo tournament and see how they do?

My game with much more limited play options and maps 1% the size is surely more difficult!

Pathetic, honestly.

what a retarded angle to hold this guy is probably bronze

You know, Bobby Fischer, the greatest chess player of all time, said that when chess was reduced to memorization and lost any novel problem solving, that's when it pretty much lost its appeal?

halo is more complex than pubg as well, nice goalpost move btw

GOOOOOAAAAAALLLLL!!

well there is more of a wildcard factor to a real time video game that simply makes it close to impossible to always carry out your strategies as intended

nice goalpost move btw

Confirmed for non-sentient.

Nevertheless, having a game boil down to trying to perform a script is clearly far lower skill than a game that requires you adapt everytime.

You don't know what weapons you will find. You don't know what the drop path will be. You don't know where final circle will go.

Rather than memorizing some perfect grenade throws for a game, you have to actually be good at throwing grenades.

this shit is why i don't touch fighting games or RTS anymore, they were fun when i was fucking around as a kid but now it's just no lifers who spend 500 hours in training mode for a single combo or cunts somehow build an entire army within 3 minutes while i'm still trying to get my first barracks up

I know im going to get shit on, but unironically Fortnite Battle Royale (Build mode)
Sure the shooting is quite basic being a nothing special 3rd person FPS, but the build mechanic adds an entirely new skillset never seen in any other pvp game, alongside some of the movement tech per season / chapter and you probably have the highest skill ceiling in any game

You have to be 18 to post here.

Siege due to wall banging and noise. At the higher levels it turns into a pure mind game.

you can't say one game is harder than the other because you're competing against humans, the difficulty comes from how many hours pros put in

so in that respect it's probably counterstrike, millions of people have been playing the same maps for like 20+ years

More options doesn't mean more skillful. More options often means that the best players can't take everything into account and the skill gap actually decreases. As an example, the CoD devs (masters of dumbing down games and catering to casuals) made their maps bigger with more angles in 2019 and outright said it was precisely to benefit bad players so they had a better chance of getting the drop on a good one.

Kind of a poorly constructed question because “highest skill ceiling” is too broad without qualifying what kind of skill is being measured. Do you mean mechanical dexterity, strategic depth, decision-making under pressure, team coordination, etc? Then there's how genres prioritize different skills making comparisons across them vague at best, that's not even to get into the sub-varieties that exist which'll just have people flinging shit across the river about 2 different FPS games that aren't even the same things at their cores

see current thread

uh im better than plenty of people with more hours than me. being good at something isn't linear. i can wipe the floor with 99.9% of slavs who banged their head against a a wall for 100x the amount of time as me

Planetside 2
Ive managed to hold points 1v10 just off aim skills. Plus you feel like a god while you do it

you were arguing for pubg having a higher skill ceiling and moved to halo when i replied

those grenade lineups are basically the prerequisite, not an exceptional feat. after that come dozens of site executes, strats for reacting to the possible outcomes, late rotations to other sites based on the judgement of the in game leader, clutch situation being entirely reliant on improvisation. i missed some stuff but thats already a bit more than "stay inside of the safe zone, wait until you get a smaller safe zone and adjust accordingly" (i am not saying pubg is easy to master but this is about the ceiling)

t. HA gauss saw faggot

Orion 4 lyfe nigga stay seething

pubg is more of an improvisational thing which makes it more inaccessible to beginners

More options often means that the best players can't take everything into account and the skill gap actually decreases

The contradiction exposes your real motives behind your arguments. You don't believe CS is higher skill, you like the fact it doesn't give a player with fewer hours the chance to beat a player with more hours.

You are like a chess player that thinks he's great because he's memorized the optimal lines to 100 turns, then gets fucking bootyblasted losing to a 10 year old in Fischer random.

You are so delusional that you think only your playstyle is skillful, which is why you think that a player capable of winning in different scenarios is lower skill.

fpbp
and the crazy thing is they've made the game harder over time

more heroes

more features, mechanics per hero

larger map

more map mechanics

more items

etc

they aren't afraid of change, and difficult change

Quake 3 arena

Or StarCraft brood war maybe a C&C title

you were arguing for pubg having a higher skill ceiling and moved to halo when i replied

You mentioned taking a pro player from one game and seeing him not succeed in a different game is an argument about the skill ceiling. I made the same argument about seeing how top CS players adapt to Halo, but it's clear you cannot adapt, just like you cannot even argue.

stay inside of the safe zone, wait until you get a smaller safe zone and adjust accordingly" (i am not saying pubg is easy to master but this is about the ceiling)

Way to demonstrate zero understanding of the game.

Dota's skill becomes so intuitive and condensed that high level players automatically or have pre-emptively calculated the best move. "This hero wants to do this, I want to do this, this needs to happen, we're strong at this, etc". with 10x people all doing it at the highest level trying to one-up each other. It's a conceptual rock-paper-scissors.

skill ceiling thread

look inside

skill floor arguments

Put those halo players in a quake 3 or tribes 2 tournament and get back to me

So rote memorization = skill now

Lol try doing some micro in StarCraft broodwar multiplayer and get back to me

try doing some micro in StarCraft broodwar multiplayer

But does a game having clunky outdated controls and mechanics make it high skill? Or simply too tedious to learn?

rote memorization

Memory is a type of skill, yes.

i am not talking about people with lower hours at all, what do casual players have to do with skill ceiling when they are nowhere near it?
defining a skill ceiling should include the various stuff that you have to have in your back pocket in order to be able to improvise on the highest level. hence me bringing up shroud tearing people apart in pubg while not making a dent in games requiring actual in-depth tactics. theres a more pronounced psychological aspect to games like cs, siege etc as well with teams often being seated opposite of each other and crowd pressure.

You are so delusional that you think only your playstyle is skillful, which is why you think that a player capable of winning in different scenarios is lower skill.

there are no solved maps in cs, if you only work by learning the meta you wont stay at the tops. thats why teams employ people solely focused on developing new strat

its simplified, just like you simplified cs. which would be fine if you and that other guy had delivered any other pubg specific skills than "improvise"

Correct. It’s refinement culture and there’s no going back sadly. Boomer targeted games or games with RNG mechanics can actually solve this and bring the CASUAL back into the game. But people seethe over randomness because they want everything to be le high skill ceiling sweat fest.
Sure most games should be that but we need some casual games too.

Start designing your own casual game

old games had god players too, faggots who could 360 noscope and walk away epicly

not sure how this is a defense for pubg players lmao

that football is getting removed because of this lol

There aren't any players for quake 3 or tribes 2 tournaments poser.

I'm inclined to say no for dota and maybe for cs. You have the same tools in cs and both teams change sides eventually even if one gets less defend/attack rounds arbitrarily that can be factored in the competition
In dota there's a catalog of characters and you're locked after choosing at the start. It also changes too frequently, you don't see basketball suddenly change the rules so this season dunks count 4 points because "we want to see more dunks in the meta!!"
Rules make the game but in games like mobas they constantly fuck up and have to micro adjust
The most sports like game out there is rocket league and it also has a quite high skill ceiling

WoW arena

Hugging pillars and running in circles is so much fun brah...

i am not talking about people with lower hours at all, what do casual players have to do with skill ceiling when they are nowhere near it?

Serious question, are you a chat bot?

As an example, the CoD devs (masters of dumbing down games and catering to casuals) made their maps bigger with more angles in 2019 and outright said it was precisely to benefit bad players so they had a better chance of getting the drop on a good one.

Quite literally, "If it's easy for a high hr player to kill newbs that's a high skill cap"

Whereas I would say, a high skill player adapts to the conditions and still wins. Basically you are just complaining about getting sniped here.

It's clear there is no use talking to you. You're a moron desperately trying to justify your inflated ego.

you just quoted two different guys and topped it off with one conclusion, bit paranoid innit?
why dont you prove your non-chatbot status by writing your definition of a skill ceiling just so i can make sure im not talking to a moron

Only game you can play and tell that people aren’t cheating
Dota2 played the long game and won

its simplified

No, it's wrong.

just like you simplified cs

never did, just replied to what you called high skill in cs.

which would be fine if you and that other guy had delivered any other pubg specific skills than "improvise"

What, like not being able to script out your games? I mentioned many, your inferior mind forgets them before it even comprehends them, because you don't argue for the sake of truth.

woah guys its a Anon Babble cs thread let me gues:

loool cs takes no skill

hey guys i played quake back in 99 i am very smart

every pro player is a cheater

haha let me know if i missed anything guys

Oh, your ego has been so bruised you're resorting to semantics over the basic concept we all are discussing.

My definition of a skill ceiling is the highest level the game can be played at. The more skill(s) it allows at the highest level, the higher the skill ceiling. Chess has a higher skill ceiling than checkers, and 5D chess has a higher skill ceiling yet.

Most of the aspects of CS gameplay are present in PubG, but pubg has a lot lot lot more aspects CS does not. Vehicle play, destructible terrain, not being able always get the weapon you've invested the most time into, etc. etc.

Quake and other arena shooters.

youtube.com/watch?v=DKtLa2pFlPo

Probably Chivalry 1. Games like Chiv/Mordhau are literally bottlenecked by ping. The server simply can't keep up with your 10 ms reaction time and doesn't register a last millisecond parry that you hard read.

That's when you not just get to the top of the ceiling, but climb way past it with a 180+ IQ.
There reach a point in which you memorize all the viable plays and openings and know how to play against them perfectly, a point at which memorization and having enough IQ to process the turns fast enough won't help you anymore.
Since things like reflexes are limited cap, and aiming or speed are also severely capped past a certain point, if you're a genius like Bobby Fischer and hate the entire world and even other geniuses chess players since they're not real geniuses and just autistic savant fucks who probably carry less spaggheti in their pockets than you do, and probably don't carry sauce in their other pockets since they're just useless fucktards, add to that you're a salty bitch you do get tired of it once you have reached the top.
Man I only have a 138 IQ and I get somewhat salty at people like Fischer, I'll never get to be smart enough to reach that level of bitterness, true loneliness and depression.

Boomer targeted games

You mean like the new doom? Slow af projectiles and a red light green light parry minigame that gives you a time dilation effect when you hit a successful parry. Boomers would probably love those.

Probably Starcraft 2

hehe

when i was a kid we just button mash

no wonder why you are bitching, you are just bad at video games

"More options often means that the best players can't take everything into account and the skill gap actually decreases."

As an example, the CoD devs (masters of dumbing down games and catering to casuals) made their maps bigger with more angles in 2019 and outright said it was precisely to benefit bad players so they had a better chance of getting the drop on a good one.

That's because they're playing in a freaking controller and they're all shit, in PC giving players more angles would just raise the skillcap since sweaties are fucking high on adderal and probably grow eyes on their scalp, making the balder ones have a massive advantage.

Agreed. RTS tournament players are nuts.

Halo babies pretending their game is real hard

It's 2025 I never thought that would happen, yet here we are.

Note how he says something that affects all players fairly, and which can be adapted to with different play, lowers the skill ceiling.

He's a twitch run and gun player that thinks anyone playing cautious, sniping, camping, etc. cannot be skilled.

I really wish Deadlock had casual matches because Dota 2 is the only MOBA I played and I had no idea what the fuck I was doing and stopped playing after like two hours. CS2 is fun casual still, I'm too old to be a tryhard, but any time I try to play Deadlock online it's just a bunch of MOBA freaks complaining for 40 minutes that I'm trash at the game. I just want to be Holliday and blow shit up with my barrel. The only time I've had fun is getting friends to play matches against bots.

Man I only have a 138 IQ and I get somewhat salty at people like Fischer, I'll never get to be smart enough to reach that level of bitterness, true loneliness and depression.

You really envy that state? Because I'm pretty much there.

my peenus weenus of course

make DOTA into a shooter with 500 items, denying creeps and shit

gotta learn all that, the meta, hero abilities and what to expect from zero

I'm curious but learning all that shit after people have been at it for months seems worse than getting back into DOTA after 8 years of uninstalling WC3

CoD tourneys literally ban snipers and smokes because holding angles is stupid strong

it has a pretty high skill ceiling but there's no way it's the highest

it's probably some jank bugged up the ass game like gunz the duel or melee where you have to autistically exploit the game's broken code to get the upper hand on your fellow unemployed sex pests

you anchor too much on what traditional sports are and how they implement rules, that's not a foolproof way of proving it's better.

basketball

you are in a chinese cartoon forum sir

now i'm older and still want to play basketball and find that my adult competition actually plays seriously and has honed skills that i didn't. i wish everyone was still playing at an elementary level

You can no longer play horse as an adult, only organized play exists.

Nah, you're just retarded.

I'm there and I'm almost to the point I'm going to shoot someone for using the exit of the bus to enter or using the wrong lane in the market since I'm an autistic misanthropic fuck, I just wonder how much worse it would be with another 50 IQ points on top of that so I could also shit on 135-150 IQ tards and not just on normies and even asians.