What's behind this phenomenon?

Arcade games are hard because they want more of your money.
Roguelites are hard because they want more of your playtime (grinding runs to unlock stat boosts and other features that makes the game easier).

those STUPID fucking chud developers made these games too unfair for me!!!! (im trans btw)

explain in full detail how every single one of those games are unfair.

Usually roguelikes have more variety in character builds, different item/skill combos and playstyles compared to arcade games that encourage mechanical skill in a single playstyle

You didn't even try to refute my argument.
Arcade games just are not compelling enough on their own to be worth playing again and again at home, especially since 99% of people will just credit feed their way through the game, or will drop it the moment they encounter anything that's even slightly challenging.
Roguelite/like rewards coming back to the game by giving the player more options in accordance with their played time/effort/achievements. People lose on one run, but gain new ways to possibly win for later runs thanks to innovative progression systems.
Arcade games ONLY reward player skill, which is not sustainable for long periods of time as each player has a skill limit.
Rogue adjacent games reward both player skill AND persistence which allows both sides of improvement to feed into the other, which keeps the game and the challenge relevant for longer.
Arcade sloppers are just mad that their shit has been obsolete for nearly 2 whole decades at this point.

They're quarter munchers that are explicitly designed to force you to stop playing the game as quickly as they possibly can. It's literally the business model. Someone who can hog an arcade machine for hours at a time is bad for business, so the difficulty HAS to be there no matter what the means - that usually means that unfair shit/unavoidable deaths/impossibly strict timers are present.

Your bottom is easy

i've probably spent like 30 hours playing enter the gungeon over the years but i've never managed to get past floor 4 and i maybe reached it like 3 times in total i get bodied by lvl 1 bosses 50% of the time i just blow dick at bullet hell

What if the machine doesn't allow continues?

Don't engage with the bullets at all, just take cover. Dodge as little as possible

there's no cover in boss arenas

Shmups aren’t fun.

What's behind this phenomenon?

People don't understand it, but the consumption of art/entertainment products is a social thing. The vast majority of people don't just take the objective quality of things into consideration before buying/experimenting.
That's why you see Western games inspired by retro stuff with thousands of reviews on Steam, while the real retro stuff is abandoned to small niches. "But these games are better", that's not true, UFO-50 is definitive proof of that, none of those games survive on their own, none of those games would sell if they were a real Taito collection or something, but it's a social phenomenon, it's what people who supposedly like retro games play, and that's what people consume.

Note: this same argument also applies to products made exclusively with artificial intelligence. If AIs make entire games, people won't consume them in significant numbers because they won't have a social meaning within the logic of consumption.

It's slow and a time waster.

most people who play the games on the top consider it complete when they 1CC it.

Is that even possible with games on the bottom? It seems quite often a lot of luck is involved in terms of RNG, and that is without factoring in progression systems.

You can have a 100% win rate in arcade games if you keep feeding coins.

But I can still get huge dophamine surges for doing runs with low amounts of coins like only 10 quarters for one run.

there are definitely bad coin feeders but for the most part, you can get good enough at these games to beat them on a single coin.

What's behind this phenomenon?

Someone thought of editing wojak to make someone else look silly

You get permanent upgrades in the roguelites so even bad runs make it feel like you're making some amount of progress

Then you must be really good and have practiced a lot.
Or you don't play the same games I do.

You are mentally ill.

Bottom is rng based, so it's "fair"

People are all addicted to gambling now because every website which is used to mediate all sociality outside of work is based on the same style of psychological manipulation.

Isaac is bad because it is popular. I do not like popular games.

Top is boring and repetitive to me because it's just you using the exact same moves against varied enemies across locations, ultimately Level 2 and Level 5 are basically the same gameplay wise with enemies only having slightly more complex movesets.

Bottom is the top expect your moves actually change ever time you play and you're required to strategically engage with how your moveset evolves.

Beating arcade game is mostly rote memorization.
Beating a roguelike is application of learned skills and knowledge, which most people find more stimulating.

normalfags cannot and will never actually get good. Roguelikes actually works for them since they don't have to actually git gud themselves, the progression system will take care of it for the most part.

I've never heard anyone say this. At most people don't talk about the older games because all that's been said has already been said.

It’s a desperate morkfag trying to drum up a rousing intellectual discussion

all that's been said has already been said.

Honestly not at all, especially considering how misunderstood that whole genre is.

Stop making bait OP.
Anyway, you playing some shmups?

Bottom is top but with gambling.
And gambling makes everything better.

Now mods, execute OP and ban every single poster in this thread including me for replying in earnest to a basedjak image thread.

Rewards practice and knowledge of the game

All of the bottom games reward playtime more than practice or knowledge, you just play long enough to unlock the free win items and get lucky enough to get them on a run. They just play themselves for you eventually, that's why more people like those games, especially "journalists".

appeal to nostalgia

was he stupid?

top = shit games

bottom = good games

it really is that simple

It's not just a question of skills. In arcade games, the progression in your skills is not affecting the game other than changing the ranking of best scores.
In roguelikes, this idea is included in the progression of the game itself.
Normalfags don't see much point in playing the same arcade game for 100 hours until they get good at it, but they do see a point in playing a shitty ass roguelike for 100 hours until they complete a whole album of achievements and feel that they've accomplished something.

gameplay loop

Whenever I read that term I imagine the person using it to look like this

Metal Slug

Near infinite replayability

Where? I love the games but once you've taken the different routes in each stage the game remains the same. And they really don't have that many routes.

beat em ups

infinite replayability

Explain how.

You can do a run with higher score

Top just sounds like a job and most people already do them, I can see why it would appeal to people without jobs though.

If that is your bar for replayability you might as well say every single game in the world has infinite replayability since you can just speedrun them.

that’s literally all arcadefags ever mean

kek!

man videogames are fucked if devs actually assume each players have a skill ceiling they cannot break through at all, like you do.

top is not infinitely replayable, its the same game every fucking time.

Japan

Speedrun is arbitrary and very often makes you play by skipping content.
Score is intended by the game devs and there are mechanics you are supposed to engage with.

lol what a retard

bottom as well.

lol what a shitter

tranny speedrunner mindset

Most scoring systems aren’t fun and certainly don’t make the game more replayable unless you are the same type of autist who enjoys speedrunning. The minor semantic differences don’t really change what’s going on.

Score was created by game devs as a lazy way to encourage someone to put more quarters into a machine they beat and come from an era before people could play games at home which figured out better ways to encourage someone to replay the game. High scores appeal only to someone with extreme autism AND no other options. It's for a kid who has literally only one game to play.

Replayability for 99% of the population means that the game offers a different experience each time you play it. See CRPGs, Deus Ex, etc.
Just replaying the same game again but a little better this time isn't what it means.

This word has no effect on those who don’t pretend to like shmups, sorry.

So you're a tranny if you try to finish DMC with S rank?
Tranny speedrunning is ridiculous because it's a meta competitive ruleset the devs didn't account for. Scoring is and troons don't do it usually.

theoretically and practically incorrect. the games on the top are all about memorizing the exact attack patterns and item drops and enemy spawn locations because they'll happen at the exact same time in the exact same way every single run.
bottom games are randomized every time so it's always a new experience.

Holy shitter cope.

the games on the top are all about memorizing the exact attACK

Opinion discarded

OK? Who cares as long as the bottom games are fun (hint: they are and for longer than the top ones)

there definitely isn't meta knowledge on how to get the highest score

Nah he's cooler than people who say that.

So mad he started mass replying with a one-liners

Absolutely butt blasted lmao

because they'll happen at the exact same time in the exact same way every single run.

Way to out yourself

Stop with the morkshit dear god, he had an episode where he talked to the guy from STG Weekly who is both a wr holder in many shmups and also a speedrunner and he just looked at him like he was a retard when he tried to explain how score is like so checking different from speed running.

devs didn't account for speedrunning

you know save files show playtime for a reason right?

Using the game's mechanics, yes.

muh trannies and speedrunners isn't an argument, cope.

Again I don’t care about gay arcade bullshit or being a “shitter.”

???
Lol, tranny

Most game mechanics can be exploited, so I assume you're going to move the goalpost into "well it's about good faith playing the game". But you could say the same thing about speedrunning, there are speedrun categories strictly about playing the game right.

Normies would have a brain aneurism trying to figure out the scoring system of shit like Battle Garegga or DOJ

DUDE THAT OPINION SOUNDS KIND OF LIKE SOME NO-NAME E-CELEB'S OPINION THEREFORE IT DOESN'T COUNT!!!!

I've thought this since well before that retard came onto the scene. The only difference is that he has a platform and an audience while I've been shouting the same shit into the absolute fucking void for over a decade (so my opinion basically does not matter)

I'm sure you entered this thread and wrote posts specifically to show how much you don't care.

You know what I’m saying, you’re literally copying his quotes on scoring word by word. ???? Fucking retard lol

Bottom has randomness. When you play top, you play through the exactly same first level, exactly same second level, etc, etc, and by the time you get 1cc half of the game is autopilot you're just numb to. Roguelites are the logical evolution of arcade games, people just haven't realized that yet.

That’s correct. I really just hate you people the most of anyone on Anon Babble because you’re stupid.

If it increase your game's score it's legit. Speedrunning is a whole other thing the majority of games don't give a shit about. I guess in DMC you ARE ranking for time but it's not the only metric.

Get an original meme PLEASE. Get creative. The jak shit is so fucking overused and tired it's unreal. It sucks and the only good developement from it was when the chud meme got upturned and made full schizo. It sucks. You have a website of your own for this trash.

Exactly. Speetrannies can only live within their own world, where they set their own rules. Look how they have zero interest in racing simulators which are "speedrun games" par excellence, but they love trackmania and all kinds of racing garbage where they break the natural rules of the game in the same way they want to break the natural rules of human biology.

"No you see me replaying the same game over and over again to get a higher score is not the same as speedrunners who replay the same game over and over again to get a higher score(completion time)"

Do scoretrannies really think their mindset is different?

Imagine if EA released the new Battlefield, and while you're playing multiplayer you run into a guy who's got quadruple the normal health and his bullets do double damage. If you pay $.99 you can quadruple your health and damage and make the game easier.
That is how fucking retarded you sound when you defend arcade games and "muh NES hard", AKA infinitely respawning enemies and frame perfect jumps that have you do something fucking stupid like crouch in a corner for five minutes before jumping.

Correct!

Whatever schizo your're not making any sense so I'll just ignore you, troon.

Play Tyrian and get back to me.

Feel free lying pussy

It is absolutely different, speedrunning trans.

enemies in beat em ups always spawn in the same spots and bullet patterns in shmups always come out the same. people don't beat touhou on lunatic with quick reflexes and fast decision making. they beat it by drilling the same fight over and over again into their skull until they memorize where exactly they can position themselves safely.

If it increase your game's score it's legit.

There are obviously ways to cheat the score or rather meta knowledge of what actions generate the most score in most games, so dumb criteria and of course completely discounts what different people think is fun. I, for one, would rather get paid for doing repetitive bullshit.

If you rephrase it a little bit they think it becomes something different because they are dumb.

somebody mentions you can play for score

SPEEDRUN TRANNIES TRANNIES TRANNIES REEE

Absolutely malding

Niggas would tell you that it's all about memorization and mindless score chasing, but will go suck Billy Mitchell's cock.

DK is less about memorization than shmups.

that's literally roguelike perks. Why is the game throwing you a bone for being shit? Why are good attributes rng? Score is more reliable and closer to sports

Repetitive behaviors and obsessions are a sign of autism by the way. If you like when your games play the same, you should get a diagnosis and receive benefits for your condition! Love yourself, Anon Babble.

And shmups aren't?
Memorizing is one thing, but just because you know where bullshit comes from does not automatically mean you're winning, you have to react to same incoming shit.

woman moment

Stop acting like you play these games when you clearly don't.
Here is an example from one of the games in OP of a boss fight where you cannot memo exact positions
streamable.com/ws18uv

no you shouldn't like something that changes how the game is played

the games on the top do not have near infinite replayability because every run is the same. they also charge money per play, where rougelites do not charge you money per run

Metal Slug has one of them most degenerate scoring strategies ever.

rng is good actually

This game gave me an irrational fear of ice cubes.

Tranmaku games are so fucking soulless.

I'm aware lol

Yes actually. And funny, because earlier someone said beat-em-ups aren't exactly the same which implies there must be *some* rng unless you're about to argue that the best beat-em-ups are deterministic.

yes. if you don't like rng you're a shitter who can't deal with things potentially not going the way you want

DDP series is very sovlful wdym

I mean the aesthetics and gameplay are anti-soul. Reminds me of a slot machine or something else similarly tasteless.

gameplay loop

density playtime

game knowledge

dopamine

runs

Actually kill yourself.

rng is for shitters and has no skill involved. It takes no practice and even a game journalist can win with it.

Zoomers glorifying arcade games is just really funny to me.

Did you perhaps throw fits as a child when your mom cooked you food that you didn't want to eat that day?

Okay could you post you playing a full run of Binding of Isaac on an unlocked save? Should require no skill to beat.

RNG means you can't just memorize what to do from a youtube video. It filters the genuine autists who enjoy doing the same shit billions of times.

food analogy

no u

playing around rng is a truer showcase of skill because it shows adaptability in the face of the unknown.

You can find shmups including danmaku ones for all kinds of aesthetic, military was in back then.
Gameplay depends

There's literally nothing wrong with practicing to win at something. Hoping to win at a lottery makes you a failure at life.

Alright, watch this: youtube.com/watch?v=X0myXMFpgAU
And then post your WR replay of this game, we are waiting.

third worldie can't relate?

Most people who play roguelikes don't only win easy runs.

There's literally nothing wrong with practicing to win at something

It is when you are a poorfag who should be doing practice at a real job that pays money.

There's literally nothing wrong with practicing to win at something.

If you spend hundreds of hours grinding out the same static sequence then there is definitely something wrong with you.

yeah game journalists play around good perks that carry runs lmao

Shmupfags (retards) be like

It’s not just memorization!!!!

rng is bad

You know there are also perks that make the game harder. Almost all roguelikes have an ascension mechanic which will filter anyone that needs specific items to win.

I'm unironically not autistic enough to enjoy memorization. It's just no engaging unless you have the tism.

That's how life works, loser. You aren't randomly rewarded a good perk so you can advance.

notice how the youtube annotations are giving precise instructions on what you should be doing at all times lmao

It only takes 20 mins per loop.
Surely if it didn't take any skill, you could at least reproduce the first loop in the video right now?

Bottom games have pleasant, if mildly autistic fanbases.
Top games are mainly associated with some of the most degenerate failures in history, among the likes of TF2 and MLP.
Games do get judged by their fanbase.

Actually most good things in life require some luck, that includes the right person noticing you at the right time. Sometimes literally the person you need to be convince can actually be randomly in a bad mood.

How mundane and autistically regimented is your life that there is literally zero spontaneity?

Go do that and post replay.

Good games vs shit games. There. I solved your mystery.

DOJfags are literally braindead

No one said it isn't a skill, the contention that if you can memorize anything you can beat it.

skill

Nobody is impressed you can recite the exact humiliation ritual some microdick came up with. That skill is completely useless.

Do you know how one of us would go about doing that? Memorization you STUPID FUCK HOLY SHIT

Actually most important things in life require repetition and memorization. That includes job skills, studying, and sports. You aren't granted anything good just relying on chance.

Yeah, I'm sure telling me these attacks are hard and random will be very helpful.

Sorry, no. If I wanted to study during my free time I'd be in university.

GAME BAD BECAUSE ROUGELIKE

I'm more puzzled about this more common phenomena I see.
What started this?
Streamers complaining that they can't just stream wordslop for content?
Perceived entitlement to win every time?
Being a sore loser?

All things require chance and you'd know this given the a common gripe from most people "I worked for 10 years at my job grinding and I never got a promotion". So no, just showing up isn't enough for most people.

no one is impressed you randomly throw a tantrum because you got a bad attribute at a videogame you clown

More cope.

lol thanks Jam ears, I didn't figure that out from the fact I always need to bomb this shit or get very lucky. And he is playing the easier version.

You will never even see this boss so it doesn’t really matter retard

If you're just going to do memorization it's more impressive to do something like DDR or Guitar Hero.

I have literally defeated that boss in a single credit.

I’m genuinely baffled how fucking retarded you are

Alpaca friend is cute.

I doubt most shmup "fans" even enjoy playing them. It's literally the same level of excitement as doing homework. I know some absolute dorks find that kind of thing fun, but not most people.

What's the cope? Do you believe it's not memorization? If the game is exactly the same every playthrough then the only thing you can do to win is to memorize to the point where you don't die.

Can Anon Babble posters really not comprehend the idea of playing a game you like multiple times for fun? Either you're an insane psychopath for doing it or you need a "reason" to do it like 1CC or achievement hunting

No, you didn’t.

Explain how you memorize If you say so.

Can Anon Babble posters really not comprehend the idea of playing a game you like multiple times for fun?

This goes way beyond that. We're talking tens of thousands of times grinding out the exact same thing for asspats on Discord from other insane retards.

I like metal slug I like isaac

Can shmup retards really not comprehend that most people think shmups aren’t fun to play over and over for any reason?

I think it's ultimately boomers or autists upset that their genre is dead because it's objectively inferior to several new game genres: like memorization and git gud? Soulslikes. Like replayability and semi-repetitive levels? Roguelikes. Like a static ruleset and engaging gameplay for hundreds of hours? Every modern multiplayer game.

You can play more than one genre you know.

roguelike

Stop using words that you don't know the meaning

Don’t tell shmupfags this

It's a pattern, retard. If it was truly random then there would be bullet patterns that would be impossible to solve.

All things require practice and repetition considering humans can write and play music and go to outer space. Why is it a nightmare for retards that they need to study to accomplish anything

All the shmupfags I know including myself already do that.

All the shmupfags I know

Not beating the Discord allegations.

Why is it a nightmare for retards that they need to study to accomplish anything

because they were raised on instant gratification

no you can't use a term that has modern meaning to everyone except pedantic historians except even you know what we mean so you're just throwing an autistic um acktually fit as it impresses anyone

ADHD

False
I am probably the strongest example of ADHD on this board and I much prefer shmups
Most roguelikes look and feel way too reddit for me

Bottom gives you stuff for failure.

It’s a nightmare to spend time studying for a video game instead of playing music or going to outer space which is why people think the genre is gay and sucks.

Video games are supposed to be fun, the word "study" can never be used the context of something fun.

tetris is still one of the most popular games of all times

Arcade games ONLY reward player skill

True. They're simply too based to be popular. Subhumans hate difficulty.

Many bullet hell games have RNG patterns.

interesting, I have the same opinion of genres that you like

write and play music

comparing it to play a video game

You know anon, if this confuses you, experiment to see which thing impresses people more. People recognize that playing a shmup flawlessly is a lesser skill that even an 8 year old can do.

The spreads themselves are simple patterns, but they will overlap randomly.
That attack is genuinely one of the worst in the game despite how basic it looks, all you can do is praying it doesn't come out nearly undodgeable when you have no bombs.

You don’t know them.

Wall of cope

You already have a name for your shitty genre, start using it

Post a 8 years old clearing some shmup.

of course I do, they're gay and suck

Too late retard you can’t control it

theres nothing fun about rng and that's why savescum and resets exist

sounds retarded and lacks ability to retain information

Not true.

people don't beat touhou on lunatic with quick reflexes and fast decision making. they beat it by drilling the same fight over and over again into their skull until they memorize where exactly they can position themselves safely.

any above average players can lunatic 1cc completely blind retard bro

i prefer top though, zoomers are just retarded and dont appreciate anything older than them

I would except no one plays shmups anymore because they suck for the reasons already addressed. They're a dead game genre from an era where people didn't own home consoles.

Tetris is a solved game though. The game literally tells you exactly what to do since it lets you see too many pieces in advance to actually be a challenge.

No they can’t.

very true
you spend time playing games that I personally don't like instead of making music and going to space

theres nothing fun about rng

You have autism. Not even in an joking sense, just genuinely.

You will always be inferior to roguechads
Don't forget that

are you retarded? even I have been able to do it for all games past 15
you dont even need to be a superplayer

using your own retarded argument to make me sound retarded

kek

objectively false

What's behind this phenomenon?

To the original quest, luck. Roguesharts or whatever you want to call them give you the roll of the dice to overcome the challenge, and you can win no matter how shit you are. Retro arcade type games force you to learn the game and not be shit.

No you haven’t.

no proof and more cope

Ok then

retard nonplayer.

your own retarded argument

I think you're confused, I'm not the one who posted

Good thing the game gets faster as you play, so you have less time make decisions.

Yeah I don’t play those bad video games that’s true

Retro arcade type games force you to learn the game

But memorizing a game and repeating the same sequence is not skill. Coming up with ways to deal with RNG and overcome seemingly impossible odds is "true" skill that is innate, something that cannot simply be practiced or grinded.
I get it if you're not talented enough to understand this and get filtered though.

Yes let's compare olympic athletes to a random schizo spouting random babble and see which one the general population is more impressed with. Being spontaneous and random is for cowards trying to cover up they lack skill and substance.

so you admit you have zero clue what you're even talking about? kek dumb nonplayer

I fundamentally dislike any meta progression system. If they don't have one they're fine in my book.

filtered

can’t remember what he himself said that led me to make that post

I guess athletes aren't really skilled then, look at how much they practice and grind to win.

You improve your chances of winning overtime by playing more I can clear hades on a starting run now same as I can 1CC zero ranger the term you were looking for is trivialization where they make the roguelike easier because they're scared theyll quit after 2 runs

I honestly don't care what someone like you thinks since you think playing a shmup for 1000 hours is as equally impressive as playing a violin for 1000 hours.

what he himself said

???

I am 100 percent sure you are lying.

Being spontaneous and random is for cowards trying to cover up they lack skill and substance.

Yeah fuck variety and actual thinking, I just want to study and ace the test like a cartoon nerd.

now post every non-rogueslop on the steam top 10

Memorisation and being able to perform a sequence of actions well absolutely is a skill.

Yes you are retarded question mark spammer

I didn't make the argument that practicing music is the same as playing a shmup. Feel free to explain why it's not a lesser skill which you can't.

It’s a nightmare to spend time studying for a video game instead of playing music or going to outer space

how is that any different from any other genre? if you want to be good at a game you have to practice

this shit has become the cancer of videogames.

as soon as i see this 3 random upgrades screen i close the game immediately

He didn’t even say that tho he didn’t mean it like that bro please understand bro

It’s not but preferably the game you are practicing you would want to be good and not suck (like shmups)

yes, that's how a game is played. There are rules and win/lose condition and breaking free from the formula doesn't make it more exciting

weird that people like having fun and mechanic variety in playing games

move speed +/-10%

Automatically filters the shmups players that play on muscle memory.

Correct. There is a huge difference between a normal person, and a truly talented athlete who has an intangible x-factor that pushes them far beyond the limits of mere practice and repetition.
And this is why roguelike enjoyers are the true kings. It is one of the only genres in existence that truly helps to identify who those people are with that x-factor. People who can get massive win streaks on seemingly impossible stakes in Balatro. People who can beat Binding of Isaac no matter how dire the circumstances. These people didn't get as good as they are through practice, but through an innate talent that puts them a cut above the average human being.

how is that any different from any other genre?

Most aren't so deterministic as to be literally on rails like a shmup.

I don't even like shmups but you sound like a huge baby

get good roll

suddenly start winning

yeah rougueslop takes no skill

RNG hidden content is just a time waster with a false sense of achievement

There are rules and win/lose condition and breaking free from the formula doesn't make it more exciting

You vill play ze game exactly how Takeshi Chingchong designed it. Remember to study for the test.

That’s okay. As long as you don’t like shmups you’re alright.

Yes, and most people who play those types of games beat them once and they stop. Your issue is you're trying to argue that a game which is more or less the same every play through is worth playing not only more than once, but for potentially thousands of times.

I think you misunderstood the question

ask the computer what a video game actually is (it's not what you said)

Explain why a shmup player cannot be more talented than another.

As opposed to score attacking a game? Why are you deciding what I find fun or interesting? I don't say you shouldn't find score attacking fun, I'm saying that you're not like most people.

no, it's not okay. please act like an adult.

Talent in this case is how quickly you can break your mind into doing an exact sequence. Even someone with no talent can do it though, it's just memorization.

yeah let's hope you randomly get good at shooting games or fighting games to start winning lmoa because momma will always love you even if you fail at everything

on 4channel

There is no talent outside of a min floor of skill:
- can you memorize
- do you have lots of time
- do you have basic motor functions

okay, keep making the board worse and then complain about it later

Binding of Isaac was a mistake.

NOOO IM SKILLFULL I KEPT ROLLING THE DICE UNTIL I BECAME A GIANT LIGHTNING FAST BLEEDING FART BABY THE SPEW 300 VOMIT PARTICLES A PICOSECOND THAT ONE SHOT THE ENTIRE SCREEN IT WAS SKILL!!!!

It's a shmup, not a rhythm game.
Many games have RNG elements both for survival and scoring.

Shmups are more memorization heavy than rhythm games.

hilarious when a rogueshitter needs none of these

Shmups and rhythm games are the same, sorry if you're retarded. If someone can play Guitar Hero on Expert that can absolutely ace any shmup you give them.

No they aren't. Your entire argument relies on your ignorance about both genres.

yeah because all they need is
- do you like playing fun games?

I realize this requirement doesn't apply to shmups so I apologize.

so you agree that RNG requires skill to play around

lmao, literal braindead retards
rogueniggers in shambles

yes all they need is to be retarded and gifted a good perk. Sorry it wasn't clear enough for you

Literally both of them require memorizing patterns, the only difference is rhythm games actually require more skill because you have to have dexterity and timing to input a sequence of 100s of inputs and not just the ability to read patterns and move a stick around.

explain to someone who's not really into shmups: why is this one of those genres that casuals get so sore over? most genres it they just move on from if it filters them but they seem really hung up on shmups in particular.

Nobody said it doesn't in a vacuum.
But there is semi-randomized boss attacks and there is shit like a random chance of steamrolling the entire game.

It's the same reason why classical musicians are literally nothing compared to even low-level jazz players.
Classical is rote memorization, playing something exactly the 1 prescribed way, and nothing more. There is nothing more to do once you have perfected a song, a suite, a composer's entire collected works.
Jazz is fundamentally limited to extremely talented individuals and quickly shakes out shitters. You don't learn how to play things "just the 1 way" because by default, you are not shit unless you learn every single thing you do in all 12 keys. Nothing you play is truly mastered until you can do it in a variety of situations, however adverse, without missing a beat. You can try to grind it all you like, but there are some people who simply do not have that higher level talent to play songs they've never seen or heard before in such a way that you'd swear they knew it for their whole life.
Throw a fake book at lesser players and they won't know how to survive when you tell them to play x song in y key. But top players do this every single day. Name any tune in picrel and they can play it so well, you'd think they were crazy when they tell you they've never seen it in their lives. That is talent and it's not something you can magically materialize out of grinding alone. You can fundamentally be too weak a human being to perform at this level.

semi-randomized boss attacks

Blatantly put in as a cynical move to make money off even the most ardent of autistics. Brutal exploitation of the disabled.

Because deep down they know their copes aren't true and the reason they didn't 1cc a shmup is becuase they suck dick.

because the genre filtered them so the sore losers just resort to calling it memoslop or such despite the genre being 90%+ RNG that needs actual skill and practice

Nobody said it doesn't in a vacuum.

rng is for shitters and has no skill involved

shmups dont have meta progression

All of those game at the top have good critic scores.

this, it's the same with rollslop or parryslop

You could have extrapolated that I also think shmupfags are retards by my disdain for 1CCs. I just want to get to the bottom of why both sides in this argument seem to be unreasonable

It's funny to mock shmuptards since the entire genre is speedrunner tier degenerate.

Both sides and their extreme takes are retarded in this case, just having RNG doesn't say much about whether the game requires skill or not.

the entire genre is speedrunner tier degenerate.

how?

Classical is rote memorization, playing something exactly the 1 prescribed way, and nothing more

t. filtered by classical

A lot of classical, and especially romantic, music is all about emotion. You have to play by heart, not by memorizing the key presses. Otherwise, a Chopin Nocturne will sound pretty but lack any beauty.

The real problem with classical these days is that it's not progressing or challenging itself. That's why you have a bunch of Asian kids who will learn to play by rote memorization. Jazz, meanwhile, focuses on improv and experimentation which helps keep it more fresh.

FOMO/insecurity mostly, I don't really care myself as someone who isn't a fan of a genre but lots of people are insecure about stupid things and feel like their integrity as a HARDCORE GAMUR is compromised because they can't 1 CC toohoos.

It's 100% memorization of an on rails sequence. If you enjoy studying it's the genre for you!

how is that degenerate?

You need a sick mind to enjoy studying.

they can't 1 CC toohoos.

Absolute fucking state.
I could justify if they threw themselves at DOJ and got filtered out because it honestly does have one of the hardest 1-ALLs in the genre, but the toohoo are on the other side of the spectrum, assuming you want 1cc of Normal.

what's so sick about practicing something until you're so good at it that it becomes second nature?

It's 100% memorization of an on rails sequence.

No matter how much you keep repeating this, it won't become true.

Only trannies play Touhou, or shmups in general.

it's ableist and not pandering to the lgbt adhd crowd

must be nice not having to worry about that IP counter, huh?

A lot of classical, and especially romantic, music is all about emotion. You have to play by heart, not by memorizing the key presses.

Except this is bullshit. You can quite easily commit to memory a specific way to play each and every section of a song such that it elicits the emotion you want your listeners to feel.
Jazz, on the other hand, is literally composition sped up to an instantaneous degree. You aren't merely playing "by heart" based on the notes explicitly written on the page. You are creating actual music as you feel it in the moment and sending it to the listener in a way that literally cannot be achieved in classical.
The sooner you accept that roguelikes, roguelites, and such adjacent games are the Jazz/"American Classical Music" of video games, the sooner you can become enlightened. The sooner you can elevate your own skills as a gamer and discover new limits you never imagined you'd reach if you exclusively grinded shitty Japanese beat-em-ups and shmups for thousands of hours.

Guess you are confirming what the other anon said by replying to this reply chain.

When that thing you're practicing is a really shitty game instead of literally anything else, then there is something wrong.
I'd be posting like this even if we had thread IDs.

a really shitty game

oh so this just boils down to you not liking the genre personally, okay
honestly it seems like you've got something wrong in the head yourself

You can quite easily commit to memory a specific way to play each and every section of a song such that it elicits the emotion you want your listeners to feel.

Holy autism. When you perform, you're supposed to put your feelings into the song.

"We can make our own babies," "Our people and culture deserve to exist" "We should have the right to self associate" "I want protected rights and colorblind hiring, admission, and sentencing."

These are not extreme takes. The left is mutilating 5 year olds and protecting pedophiles and isn't sorry about causing 45k children to get raped in BSA and destroying the organization by pushing for gay leaders. Gay allies literally protected and covered for their crimes.The left is putting MTF serial rapists in women's prisons where their solution to even more rape is to hand out condoms. The left protests white refugee families fleeing an actual genocide, while telling us we have to take in millions of people from thousands of miles away from places that aren't even war zones and they deserve more benefits than citizens. And their solution to all the crime is to defund police, which led to 300% increases in violent crime. And they are doubling down on it. The left's forced lockdown destroyed small businesses and saw a multi trillion dollar shift in wealth to the wealthiest people. They have failed to govern morally, they are inside traders, they fund terrorism, their weakness on crime has multiplied it, and their corrupt embezzling has blown up the deficit and brought our civilization to the brink of economic collapse. They hate workers, outsource jobs, and flood the country with immigrants to keep wages low and housing high. Every blue city is a fucking disaster for the average worker.

No it really the fuck isn't both sides having extreme takes. At this point, wanting to let blacks kill their babies, is the most moral thing the left stands for.

Videogames?

Meds. Now.

agreed but wrong thread

Based but you're unfortunately about to go on vacation buddy.

Holy autism. When you perform, you're supposed to put your feelings into the song.

And you are missing the entire point of the discussion.
Jazz music performance HAS this and in a way that classical performance simply cannot compare. Being able to perform exactly as written on the page is such a bare minimum and not enough to hold your own in jazz play unless you never want to solo and never want anyone else to invite you to jam with them.
Now replace the above points with roguelikes.
Roguelikes HAVE the highly-skilled mechanical gameplay AND the improvisational requirements to a level that standard arcade games cannot compare. Merely being able to play the game in a prescribed way is not enough to keep your head above water in roguelikes - you HAVE to adapt continuously to new things and show that you're up to the ever-changing task demanded by the game.
Arcade sloppers will really try to discredit roguelikes because this high level of gameplay is so beyond their ability to fathom. It's everything their games ask, and much, much more.

yo this gameplay is fire fr fr

The answer to OP's question then, women in video games have largely caused this trend due to needing easier game modes. Arcade style Bullet Hell games with no saves are unforgiving and unpopular with people that suck at video games, which is disproportionately women. They get a louder voice because people give them attention more as streamers and they are more often writers who write hit pieces bashing such games.

Stop caring what they think and enjoy what you enjoy.

The difference is unlocking shit or getting better skills, depending on the game
I like em for the same reason I like RPGs

I somehow don't think this thread is mostly women, yet there is a lot of bitching.

I somehow don't think this thread is mostly women

The shmuptards ITT think they're women, but that doesn't count.

Shmup players aren't the ones complaining about difficulty.

God it's funny when a bot slips up and says something completely out of context.

Exactly, and we also can establish that a lot of people here suck at games.

The political link was my assumption because women are more likely to lean left. So there's a strong correlation between people that hate bullet hell games and people that prefer body Type 1 and Type 2 language.

And you are missing the entire point of the discussion.

Your point is blunted from your clumsy use of it. You're holding classical music to a different standard from jazz. You talk about classical in terms of the emotion "you want your listeners to feel," but jazz in terms of the "music as you feel it."

Being able to perform exactly as written on the page is such a bare minimum

And jazz is much, much easier to play exactly as written on the page. A jazz musician would take weeks to learn a Bach or Chopin at the same level as a teenager trained in the classical tradition.
And then you keep ignoring the fact that classical music IS expressive.

Honestly, you sound like a jazzfag seething about the fact he can't play simpler classical pieces rather than someone who has actually explored both genres. I bet the same goes to you playing roguelikes for hours but barely touching arcade games.

The first actual sequel to super mario bros is a bigger more creative game

nigger it was the most rehash of all rehashes nintendo ever released.

I miss Hina drawfag.
And threads that were more about the games than people whining about them.

Score attacking a game means you're playing the exact same game and can see your improvement at the game by the score.
RNGfest shit isn't you getting better at the game, but the game deciding you landed on the RNG seed that gives you broken shit early to make it baby easymode.
Most roguelikes have one optional "I win" button upgrade and people just retry until they get that, beat the game and say they mastered it.

Again, you're attempting to choose for me what I should find fun. First, your assertion is wrong, I don't know of a single roguelike that can be beaten without some skill as most game winning combinations requires you to at least half-way complete a run. If you suck at Binding of Isaac you can get Brimstone on the first floor and still lose the run, because the game always requires skill to beat especially resource management. But go ahead buddy, beat Monster Train on max ascension and tell me the game wins for you.

Muh memorizing patterns

all none RNG shitfest videogames have this.
There was that speedrunner faggot who beat super punchout blindfolded because it was all about memorization and patterns.
Just because you're stupid and only see the "obvious" ones for it doesn't mean it doesn't change that fact. What do you think speedrunners do? They play through a game and learn every screen inside out, where enemies spawn, the attack patterns, how to get past that screen and to the next in the quickest way possible with the least wasted movement.

Memorizing patterns is just speedrunner autism and applies to all genres of videogames

Roguelikes are just gacha.
Skill is outweighed by luck in what you randomly draw. Of course you still need basic motor functions to not be as incompetent as a game journo reviewer to actually complete a game but that's true of every game.

The bottom has more random unlocks and "synergies" that release more dopamine in your brain. That's literally it. It's comparing a slot machine to a basketball game.

Roguelikes aren't gacha because every single one of them can be beat even with terrible RNG, there's a reason why many roguelikes have a streak mechanics. And again, you're trying to decide what I should find fun, there is a reason why there are different gamer types, some people like the power fantasy, some people like when a run just pops off and they one-shot the boss. You don't get to decide if I should find that fun or not and I don't insult you by saying I don't feel the need to score attack a game I beat.

RNG scenarios and challenges being balanced around upgrades you have to grind for isn't "unfair" however a game simply being punishing but consistent is

Age. Most of the people acting like the bottom jak weren't even born until a decade after the top era ended.

What's with this dude and a totenkopf uniform getting shooped on him? He looks snappy, but still, is it just for fun or there's a bigger story?

Mario doesn't have an arcade philosophy. It was always a series (I'm talking about the main series) that prioritized openness and adventure.

He is a German goalkeeper, the Nazi uniform is just for fun