Was he right about combos?

TrvthNVKE. Combos are shit gameplay and should only go for few seconds at absolute most. If a fighting game "meta" is just being the first to land a hit so you can cutscene another player for 80% of their health its a shitty game.

No that's still bad, the only games with good combos are ones that are still interactive for both players mid-combo, like in Melee where DI leads to mind games that can end or extend combos at many points.

No. You have to memorize different combo's which is difficulty, you also have to be able to know when to use those combos.
t. gets his ass kicked at fighting games

HADOUKEN

That's just rote memorization, it rewards neet zombies who can spend 12 hours per day memorizing sequences over players with better fundamentals, mental etc.

non-refutation

You argue like roastie retards

amazing fundamentals and game sense but hasn't played enough to get over the combo barrier

Name some players

Yeah, but they have more skill than I do. I haven't memorized any of the combos so all I can do is positioning and basic attacks. They have memorized the combos but they also have to be able to sense when there is a gap or opportunity to input the sequence without being punished. Fighting games are unironically giga-brained and I can admit I'm outclassed.

sounds like it's the same issue
matches that are too short and heavily favou the person who lands the first hit

that's literally every player when he switches games.

killing more than one player on a single life in an fps is bad gameplay, instead after each kill everyone should be teleported back to spawn so the shitters can walk more before dying.

I can't name noticeable players because obviously top players need to be excellent at both to succeed, my point is that they shouldn't have to be good at combos because it's a worthless ability that says nothing about their ability to outplay their opponents. Rote memorization that is rewarded with making the game less interactive is shit gameplay.

The only post of value ITT

Rote memorization

I keep seeing this term thrown around, but it's a core aspect of all video games. You have to memorized the control scheme or you can't execute any kind of motion. Games with complex combos, not even fighting games all the time there's god of war and devil may cry, simply have a more complex control scheme.

combos gave new life to fighting games and at the same time killed them in the long run. it chased normies off and it kept the weirdos in . people watching for exploits and frame blocks or whatever is gay and not for people who are well adjusted and cool

combos should be like 3 hits max

the starting hit, dependant on spacing/standing or crouching/how punishable the enemy is

the middle hit

the final hit, where you choose a move based on what you want more, damage/meter/knockback/etc

more like reddit nvke

Sure but learning the inputs of a game enables you to perform a more complex array of actions, complex controls can expand the scope of interactivity a game has.
Combos are difficult to learn purely for the sake of, as the OP put it, execution masturbation. They don't make the game more interactive, interaction stops the moment you land your starter and only resumes once the combo-cutscene is finished.

Yes. Juggleslop is shit

New players don't have good game sense or fundamentals. Game sense involves a ton of memorization and fundamentals involve routine execution of them. Take any random character on a roster

ok he has two bars and is x distance away what can he do to you here an how do you respond with what your character has

uhhh I am good at reading people uhhhhhhh

Not even getting into frame data or wakeup or punishes or delays or....
There is not a single person on the planet who has played a game long enough to learn it but been held back by memorization of combos, which is not even the hardest rote memorization you need to do. This is hypothetical hogwash.

desu the anon who said combos are your respawn timer was completely right. you niggers don't cry about getting headshot and then waiting 30 seconds to play cawadooty or getting stunlocked for two minutes in dota.

Respawn timers make sense in team games because the amount of people active at a time affects the course of the game, a respawn timer in a 1v1 fighting game is literally just a waste of time.

guns should be 1 hit KO and respawn timer should be half a minute with the entire map having a single predictable respawn point that is easily camped

fixed that for you

"every player that switches games has good fundamentals but doesn't have all the combos memorized yet"

random gibberish about someone playing the game game for a long time

dude, you are actually intellectually challenged

memo is the ultimate shitter cope. it's literally their first response when being faced by an actual skill wall for the first time in their life

a more complex array of actions

That's what a combo is.

Combos are difficult to learn purely for the sake of

There's also the difficulty of properly executing the combo while under the gun. I don't know if you've ever played guilty gear but doing a quarter turn back up B is easy in the dojo, but it's a different think all together under pressure.

They don't make the game more interactive

Except they absolutely do. Even in God of War I can do 20 or so more moves with Kratos than I could if there weren't any combos. If I added a simple combo to Dark Souls, (Light attack, heavy attack, light attack for example) I would have one more ability which moves my weapon abilities from 2 to 3. That's more interactive.

No
Also if you want that then play Samurai Shodown. You won't pussy.

if combos werent there to stop you from mashing for 10 seconds you'd lose every round in 5 seconds.

Mastering a combat system to perform combos is mentally engaging, offering a high skill ceiling and precise execution.
See: DMC3 AND 4

There's also the difficulty of properly executing the combo while under the gun.

that's just spending dozens of hours in training mode until your muscles do the combo on their own with 0 brain input. there is no difficulty there.

fighting games are skillful fags when 2 hour player who only knows how to mash wins the "pro player" tournament for the 1000th time.

Exactly why killer instinct is the only good fighting game in existence

t. never played a fighting game
I can execute a combo just fine in the dojo but when it comes time to do it against an oppenent they aren't just standing there waiting for me to think about it. It's mentally taxing. It takes practice. You literally have to git gud.

Sounds like oldmw2 hardcore to me and that was still more fun than whatever warzone is.

3 or 4 hit combos are fine. There is a certain skill worth testing in being ready to hit confirm and be optimal in a punish. Big long anime combos not so much unless you enjoy how flashy they can look.

i've actually played them for a few thousand hours. that's why i know that combos are literally just muscle memory, even during a tense match. the only way you can fuck up a combo is in the first 2 hits where you actually still have to think about what combo you want to perform. with the 3rd hit, all that is left is going through the motions.

addendum:
unless you are playing a classic fighting game where a lot of combos require manual delays, combo route adjustments depending on enemy character weight and current height in the air and adjustments several hits into the combo depending on how much distance there was when the first hit connected.
but all of that gameplay depth pretty much died several years ago. any modern fighting game that has enough players to get through matchmaking doesn't have that anymore.

literally just muscle memory,

Maybe for you they are now, but you had to git gud to get to that point and against a new player you have the advantage because they haven't developed that yet. It's skill, it's interactive, it's difficulty. I know because I'm a shitter who noped out of fighting games because I can't do shit against people who learned the combos. I barely made it through Bayonetta on normal. Combos are absolutely difficult.

How is it interactive to get juggled for 30 seconds with literally no out?
I can understand saying that you respect someone who put in the hours to learn them, but to say that it's interactive gameplay is nonsensical.
The only real purpose of combos is to lock people into playing a game for longer and not quitting it due to sunk-cost, they don't enhance complexity or interactivity in any way.

How would it be more interactive if that was removed? How would removing combos make the game more complex?

Maybe for you they are now, but you had to git gud to get to that point and against a new player you have the advantage because they haven't developed that yet.

great, so i wasted my time learning extended combos in other games just so i have to waste less time learning them in a new one.

It's skill

it's dumping too much time into muscle memory

it's interactive

it's literally just doing the same thing for hundreds of times. it's basically being a factory worker on a conveyor belt.

I know because I'm a shitter who noped out of fighting games

you have been gaslit

If the game resets to neutral quicker or has an interactive punish game like Melee with its DI then the entire match is active gameplay where both people participate and have to outplay each other at all times, long combos in regular fighting games literally just pause the game for their duration.

Call of Duty SBMM does this but unironically btw

This is why platform fighters are more interesting to me: emergent, creative combos that come from a complex series of offensive / defensive interactions involving both players. Most true combos in platform fighters are actually only 2-4 hits, but what are called combos are actually resets strung together, that the opponent had multiple chances to escape through their own execution checks or just not getting read the fuck out of.

great, so i wasted my time learning extended combos in other games just so i have to waste less time learning them in a new one.

Yes, your skill transferred to another game, how is that a bad thing? It's a skill based hobby.

it's dumping too much time into muscle memory

All video games have some degree of this, I don't have to look at my hands to play Mario. Combos just add more to learn.

it's literally just doing the same thing for hundreds of times. it's basically being a factory worker on a conveyor belt.

You could say the same about every single enemy I headbutted in Spyro.

you have been gaslit

I can recognize when someone beat me through superior skill, I sunk the time into gitting good at dota, which by your logic is just rote memorization. It's not strategy, game sense, game knowledge.

long combos in regular fighting games literally just pause the game for their duration.

It's a reward for the player who pulled it off and a punishment for the player who let it get landed on them.

having complex combos and NOT having 10s cutscenes where the opponent cannot do anything are not mutually exclusive.
you can give a game enough depth where combos require minimal adjustments mid combo depending on certain factors. if the player does not adjust, the combo drops and the opponent gets to recover and counter hit. it forces both players to keep paying attention during combos because something COULD happen.
the problem is that modern fighting games treat these two options like polar opposites because developers have streamlined the games so hard. you rarely need to adjust anything. you only have to go through the motions.

The other guy is right
Acting like combos and setplay are assumed before fundies makes it sound like you've only ever gotten good at one game and have no experience switching into a new title where you have core game sense but lack esoteric knowledge

I keep seeing this term thrown around, but it's a core aspect of all video games

It's inevitable that there is a burden of knowledge for any videogame and that can't be removed without making the game simplistic beyond the point of being interesting. But there is a lot to be argued about just how much a game should lean on raw knowledge accumulation vs other aspects of player skill. You have to choose what you want to reward

Melee unironically created the perfect formula for what a fighting game should be, but nobody has been able to make anything that lives up to it since and its own community is so infested with psychotic trannies that the game has become unenjoyable.
There really is no worthwhile fighting game left.

emergent, creative combos that come from a complex series of offensive / defensive interactions

this describes pretty much every comboslop game that's not hnk. even mahvel is like this when zero or doom aren't on the screen

not fighting game fag but this looks much more interesting and engaging than 2 niggas playing combo war on a completely flat plane so i think you won

I don't think that's the point of combos that end in long animations. The point is:

It's a reward for the player who pulled it off and a punishment for the player who let it get landed on them.

You get to put your hands behind your head and be like yup, eat it. I have to sit there and watch in horror. It's fun.

Yet this series has final smashes, which is just a custene that plays if you collect the ball faster than anyone else.

people who complain about memorization act like they're being asked to memorize every prime number between 1 and 5000 when actual game memorization is more like remembering which sign means you can cross the street

"Melee unironically created the perfect formula for what a fighting game should be"

melee

the perfect formula

wave dashing and L-cancelling are even worse than learning fighting game combos. they're retarded inputs that prevent you from actually playing the game properly until you've wasted a few dozen hours.

You get to put your hands behind your head and be like yup, eat it. I have to sit there and watch in horror. It's fun.

you're actually the execution masturbator from the OP image. holy kek.

itt: OP sucks

t. never t bagged
most honorable samurai

I can't tell if this thead is one samefagging scrub or there is genuinely this much people arguing that clearly dont play fightans. Not that i think the picrel point is completely invalid, i fucking despise sitting there for 20 seconds when Seth gets a combo on me in UNI2, but usually stuff is a lot shorter, more freeflow or you have actual ways to defend yourself.

Rivals of Aether 2 scratches my Melee specifically Project M, the game is seriously just Project M itch even it has its own flaws. It's still the only non-Melee platform fighter that I actually, actively want to play. Like right now I'm unable to play and all I want to do is boot it up and attempt to hit some sick shit on ranked.

series

No one is comparing Melee to post-Melee Smash.

t. guy who never tried to properly learn a fighter where defence relies entirely on learning fuzzy timing OS's for every one of every character's offensive strings before you get to play the game

Nobody who I can tolerate the smell of plays melee.

no out

And here is the real problem. People who play games like to play games and being combo'd doesn't let you play the game, if you are bad you simply can't do anything. That doesn't mean combos are bad, since they are rewarding for those who pull it off. Diminishing dmg isn't enough because it makes the combo less effective but doesn't do anything to counter the "you can't play now" time. So instead of removing something that's fun because people are shit fightan should let people play the game. So just give people a combobreaker that refills with successful blocks and active parrying while be in hitstun instead of diminishing dmg. Now the combo'd has to play the game, too and problem is fixed. Removing the reward for the better player won't fix anything.

Well sure you could argue that the initial executive hurdle is too high in Melee, but the core gameplay formula is amazing and clearly the direction that fighting games should've been inspired if they didn't want to devolve into dull comboslop.

They're execution checks that prevent frauds from effortlessly stringing together shit that would be inherently fraudulent without them

That's actually mind game. If you can't tolerate my stench you don't deserve to win. Git gud.

gets comboed for half his hp for one mistake

thanks for proving him right

Never forget the legend who shat himself mid-match to throw off his opponent

he's right
that's why every reasonable person plays with scripts

Yeah, combo heavy games are just as boring for me as they are for the person getting juggled.

good combo design

Xrd Jam hits CH 6H against a lightweight. now you have to instantly make the decision to either go for a double puffball which will drop for a close hit or go for a safer route which will lead to a bad outcome. the opponent can pay attention and try to recover after the puff ball to get a counterhit and turn the tides.
this is good combo design. it incentivises using your brain

bad combo design

Guilty Gear Strive Ky hits f.S. he will proceed to do the exact same combo on every single character no matter at what distance the button hit. there will be 0 interaction between both players for the next 10s and the opponent has no way of getting out.
this is bad combo design. it is only doing the same thing over and over again with no brain usage.

best combo design

GGXXACPR Holy Order Sol or Slayer. you basically have to adjust constantly and can't just shit out the same button combination every single time. i am too much of a shitter to actually talk about that GODgame

How would a 2 player game be more interactive if both players could spend more time interacting with each other

lol

Crouch cancel and related stuff is honestly an even bigger barrier to me. Especially if you play a character that gets absolutely raped by it.

I play FGs, and he's right. Combos can look pretty cool, feel good to execute, ONLY if they're implemented right. It needs to look cool, sound satisfying, and feel good to pull off.
Even then, the game can still feel like a slog to go through if the average combo length is long as shit.
I've seen enough combos, I'd rather just go back to neutral right away after getting hit.

grab nigga grab

Maybe they should make combos hard again so that it'd actually be cool to watch someone pull it off.

JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Heritage for the Future is the only good fighting game

Luigi is yipeeing across the stage spamming Dsmash how the fuck do I grab this fucker

Combos are unironcally are more complex in Smash than in many fighting games. A combo might be true at some percent range, require a read at a higher one, or just not be useful at another percent range.

>bad combo design

This but Blazblue

that's exactly the point. combos have gotten too easy and it has hurt the interactivity of fighting games.
and it's not about having combos that you just need to waste more time to learn. we need combos back that can actually drop so there is an incentive for the player getting hit to look for an opening.

skill issue

you don't need to be daymendou to play literally any fighting game. every single game has a ryu equivalent with ignorant reversal options AND sesame street combos. not to mention every single game where people cry about combo length has magic series combos that any shitter can learn.

before you get to play the game

sounds like you just have shit neutral anon

doesn't let you play the game,

things to do while being combo'd

think about why you got hit and come up with a new strategy

think about what you are going to do on wakeup

look for a window to tech out/ burst

look for reset attempts/drops/tech chases

things you actually do while being combo'd:
Setting the controller down because you exactly know when the next useful input can be made unless your opponent fucks it up which is rare nowadays since they fell for the "make combos easy" screaming ppl did a few years ago.
I say it again, combobreaker that recharges on block (maybe gives an opening when done in blockstun) and instead diminishing combo dmg have parry inputs that lower the dps of each hit (maybe also charge combobreaker). Also remove all mash autocombos or build in obvious counterframes.

sounds like you've never played VF or SC and can't visualise what I'm talking about
SF managing to break away from SFIV's defensive OS and mostly boil the game down to generic options like block, reversal and delay tech should be considered a good development for the series, if they hadn't also ruined neutral in the process with meme slime

as someone who has suffered the cock and ball pain of playing with a top Luigi player, i remember his advice being to not over-respect Luigi fishing with wavedash. grabbing is not the answer in Luigi's case because he'll either cross you up with a weak hit or be pushed out of your range by shield pushback with a strong hit. depends on your character, but tl;dr you just want to keep him out on the ground and try to lame him out in the air as much as possible, since that's where he struggles to do anything if you're not in hit stun.

oh and try to stuff him with multi-hits or moves that specifically break CC. bait wavedash approaches and go for multi-hits / grounded spikes.

NOOO THE COMBOS ARE TOO LONG

How much time do you need to sink into this genre for that to become a problem lmao.
Just play worse?

op is not playing virtua fighter anon and iirc only taka and jacky have any combos that you could even consider 'long'

No.

we're talking about knowledge burden here, that applies to a lot more than just combo routes

I think any kind of game where even a shitter could put up a decent fight against a more skilled player is probably (but not always) more balanced.

There's something about certain anime fighters, Souls PvP and Smash where the worse player just gets completely abused and barely is able to put up a fight if at all.

No, he's just a retard seething that he constantly gets shit ratings in action games.

There's a conflict of interest in fighting games due to an implicit property of frame data rewarding brute force playstyles.
Precisely because frame data exists all fighting games lose any and all skill requirements and become about mashing the "god input" that lets you win for free.
If frame data didn't exist fighting games would be 300 iq games, but because of frame data you have to just watch the equivalent of netflix as you get combo'd to death.
This is literally because frame data isn't just limited to attacks, but also every other in-game action. You literally cannot play the game if, for instance, all movement inputs are slower than a grab.

My solution would be to replace frame data with something else that isn't so directly insistent on booleans. Maybe add some kind of fleshed-out state system, so for example, you hit someone, they are stunned for 12 frames.
Add a state that says "If a player is stunned, these are their options" The way developers fuck this up is that they always make this option deal damage or turn it into a comeback mechanic. It doesn't have to do that. smash brothers for example, has the ability to manipulate the knockback effect of an attack that landed on you via directional inputs, this is basically instant and occupies a timing that's before something like okizeme, so you can get hit, influence the direction of the knock back, and then do okizemestff afterward. Multiple additional layers of skewing the outcome. Too much of this, and it becomes *more advantageous* to recieve damage than to deal it, but it's a step in the right direction imo. Find better ways to make the comboslop not be the equivalent of being in traffic.

The gap in Souls isn't that bad, I've squeezed a few wins out of legit tryhards before but i could never do that in Smash ever

okizemestff

*okizeme stuff

why does nothing come up when I google this pasta

/thread

yes, combos are like a solo minigame you need to practice for and has nothing to do with fighting.

The best combo is one that's a series of mixups that the opponent could stop at any time with the proper read or reaction

i know in tekken at least you can rely very heavily on generic solutions rather than strict memo and even fuzzy timings pretty much come down to early fuzzy/delay fuzzy which is a very easy adaptation to make even mid match

i only play FOOTSIES for absolute NEUTRAL and NO COMBOS

The gap in Souls isn't that bad

I haven't tried ER PvP, but DaS1 is unplayable due to all the glitches and exploits, alongside things like chain backstabs, 3 I haven't played in years, but I remember it just being passive-reactive cancer with extreme neutral dominance, and people exploiting shit netcode with bleed, poison buildup, I hear Murky has basically killed it.

Yes. That's why I've never bothered with fighting games. Combos are gay (and I'm a straight White chad).

Is this your first fighting game thread on Anon Babble? Half the anons in threads that complain about fighting games are either just retarded casual shitters who complain about everything (but then go into other threads to complain about video games being dumbed down for casuals) or smash players complaining about how fighting games aren't smash.
Still better than a decade ago, where the casuals weren't even trying to pretend that they weren't clueless retards.

Yup, that is why fighting games peaked with Street Fighter 2 Turbo

DMCsisters...? They're making fun of us...

DaS pvp is a disaster, never listen to any of the 12 people on a discord who will try to tell you it was good
DS2 and DS3 are fighting game footsies with easy and regular resets to neutral except there's no corner of the stage so you can go backwards forever
ER is people wiggling in each other's faces to animation blend unreactable animations and group pvp is dominated by jumping and L2s which cover the screen in shit

DS2

I wouldn't be so harsh on 2 since stamina management in it actually mattered, there was more recovery frames overall and you couldn't just abuse iframes forever.

The rest I agree with, I think Souls PvP would teach you extremely bad habits when it comes to actual competitive games.

Based. Devil May Cry is such a steaming pile of dogshit for focusing on a shitty "feature"

Depends on the game but it's partially true and why Bayonetta is shit with it's dial-a-combo and QTE gameplay vs DMC

I'm impressed people can still find novel ways to be retarded about fighting games on this board

The idea that performing combos is not a form of interactive depth or engaging gameplay is a fallacy in the first place. Performing combos rewards learning the game and being consistent with your inputs, both things that should be rewarded, as well as recontextualizing things - for example where does the combo end, what options do you have for a combo ender etc. all impact the game state when the reset happens.

If this guy wants to play a fighting game with no or minimal combos, he can. They exist. There's a reason no one plays them. They're not that fun to play or watch.

Truthnvke. Combos are what makes DMC such a boring game compared to other games of its genre like nu-God of War.