So the genre is literally just memorisation? Why bother with shmups, I'll just play rhythm games...

/thread

You could play like an autist But you could also focus and remember where the hardest sections start and prepare yourself for that

To me there's a difference between a scrub and just a new player
A new player will die, constantly, and learn but improve, maybe getting mad at the game, or himself, but realising that was salt talking
A scrub will never improve and constantly blame the game, never look inwards

Memorization also isn't the only skill you need in shmups, movement and bullet pattern reading skills are transferable to other games in the genre, like if I wanted to - I could get a quick 1CC of any Touhou on Lunatic[spoiler] within a few days simply because I've played a lot of bullet hells.
If you're just going for a 1-ALL on the normal difficulty equivalent of most shmups - you'll hardly have to learn more than the basic mechanics of the game. I think a better question to ask regarding how people feel about the genre is, is the game absurdly difficult and punishing?

fucking spoiler fuck

ok so it's pac man with extra steps big whoop

/thread

What went wrong?

Cave didn't come back to make something even worse after she was defeated.

Meme post but how many video games, or really activities in life, don't involve memorization? Especially difficult ones.

isn't all vidya just memorization?
action? just remember which moves you can dodge and when you can attack
rpg? just remember which damage type is most effective or which status effects you can use
shooter? literally just practice aiming until you can remember how to point at some dude's head from any angle or distance
puzzle? just remember the solution
fightan? just remember frame data and overheads
party? literally don't even have to remember anything, just press buttons until someone wins
visual novel? just remember the story, dumbass
sandbox? you don't have a goal in a sandbox game so you're up to your own imagination to have fun. Imagination, by the way, is just the collection, adaptation, and reassembly of all the things you remember
roguelike? just remember what items are good and which enemies can spawn in which rooms

games for dementia patients when?

Pacmans great so what's that supposed to mean?

Writing doesn't require memorization beyond knowing your language, it's otherwise mostly all straight from the top of the dome.

I mean quality writing involves internalising a lot of technique and theory

Kino.

Why was there a girl in the fuselage

easy mode

ikaruga's just that hard man, it should be renamed to normal because it feels like normal itself is fuckass mode now that i have to keep track of revenge bullets on top of everything else

They're anime android girls meant to enhance your ship functions.

I think internalizing is not memorization, especially when you consider that everyone and their mom loves to say that meme of "learning theory so you can break the rules". But most great writers aren't going to start a paragraph and actively think of how they're supposed to structure what they want to convey.

Esprade chads where we at?

Is it any good?
store.steampowered.com/app/1913680/Elevator_Action_Returns_STribute/

*mogs cavetrash in your path*

SHMUPS ARE BAD BECAUSE OF LE HECKIN MEMORIZATION!!!

Ikaruga. the most memo game to ever be made, is the best shmup of all time, btw

What did normalfags mean by this ?

No.

rhythm game

literally one, one set path to get through things right, every player will end up playing the same

shmups

massive room for improvisation, players can do whatever they want

Shmups are also much less memo-ish than shit like platformers, run 'n guns, etc. because they have autoscroll so you can go to whatever screen position you want, as opposed to platformers where you're always forced in the same place

Yes I'm sure the people saying the first part are also holding the second opinion, that would be a very convenient strawman

ikaruga

best shmup of all time

Anon I...

I dont understand quotes

Anon, I....

Yeah I like games you memorize naturally from playing multiple times for fun. Routing is something you do when you reach the point of attempting the hardest difficulty or challenge. If you have to route just to be good at the game at a normal level, that's work. But some people like it.

anon I...

Anon I...

You have to autistically optimize the fun out of the game to 1cc, there's no dynamic gameplay

You only have to autistically optimize to get a WR high score, 1cc is the beginning of proficiency, the most an normal person needs to aspire for is 1 miss and even that doesn't require "autistic optimization"

1 miss

**no miss

No,

This is the best shmupfags have to offer? LMAO

so mad he had to reply twice

doesn't even make an argument

lol
why are anti-shmup schizos so retarded?

think two people are the same person

calls anyone else schizo

Schizobro?

Anyone can inspect element.

The schizo has broken out, I repeat we have schizo containment breach

EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS A SCHIZO

why are obsessed anti-shmup fags like this ?

literally thinks two people are the same

Schizo

OP is taking the piss, but for pretty much all the dancing games, positioning is absolutely fucking vital. Fastest way to see feel this is any double play on DDR.

I think it would be better if the shmup crowd didn't have such a weird complex about shitting on each other and difficulty.

The arcade version was great. Keep in mind that it's centrally an arcade experience.

1cc is the beginning of proficiency

That's the point isn't it? Proficiency in these games is closer to what would be considered mastery in a typical console game.
Beating a game without continuing is something that's like an end goal after finishing it multiple times, not the beginning of understanding it.

That's the impression I get when I play harder console games with arcade-style design, it feels like I need to become an expert just to be decent at them.
I am the first reply, not the guy you're going back and forth with.

literally thinks anyone who disagrees with him is the random boogieman he made up

Schizo.

I think it would be better if the shmup crowd didn't have such a weird complex about shitting on each other and difficulty.

Without it, no one in the scene would improve. Competitive games need competitive spirit in order to push players to chase higher and higher scores, refine their skills, and overall git gud. Those who can't rise up to the challenge should be filtered. Steel sharpens steel and all that, but if you aren't even willing to shake the rust off then you need to fuck off.

Wrong Retard, they are the best when its 30% Routing 70% Gorilla dodging.Best 1ccs of my life
youtube.com/watch?v=MZSaV9VewuA

Why? Because the nerds who only respect 1cc will make fun of you or will wall themselves off onto some obscure forums and ignore you? They're the equivalent of bemani players who ignore anyone who doesn't FC songs. It's possible to be complete shit and still have a great time.

start video

some guy in the corner

some random text on the left

Clicked that shit off, what is this zoomie rubbish

troonhoe

Play a real shmup

I don't play shmups but I listen to their OSTs a lot. You guys have a lot of good fucking OSTs

mork is a faggot that just asks boghog what to say

Ocarina

I like Mushihime and Natsuki chronicles too

God king Mark could dumpster you, 1cc your entire family and steal your woman. Twig twink fuckass

Mork can't do shit without boghogs approval
We all know who's pulling the strings

Alright bros going to get G-Darius, Ray'z and Darius Cozmic Collection in the sale
What other shmup kino should I get?

mork is a faggot

No. He's a father and married.

he just asks boghog what to say

Yes. He refers to his opinions quite often.

He's a faggot
He can't play games

Alltynex Trilogy

he's a faggot

factually false. he has a wife with whom he's had multiple children with.

he can't play games

youtube.com/watch?v=u6e8pveFOa0&list=PLMDuVHl1iOH-h67muE61DUeHumoHcAP22

nu-chan thinks being married is relevant to whether or not you're a faggot

Being a faggot is to do with mindset and personality

For me it's nazi tomboys fighting the america imperialism

I think the point is to have fun.

I don't accept that shmups MUST be competitive to begin with or that being full spectrum with a bushido mindset is appropriate. There's plenty of other games and genres with more robust crowds that have fierce competition while still having plenty to do for the casuals. They could go head to head PVP or uncap the end point to unlimited difficulty if they wanted to really test things at the high end.

You have taito covered with that buy. How's your library for anime girls or cute shit?

The autistic rank and scoring turned me off this

Recs for run n guns?

metal slug

Not slowdown slug

because ikaruga is the only shmup most casuals have ever heard of besides maybe 2hu

Here's what I have so far on steam
I do have a PS4 if there's anything exclusive on that besides the Ketsui port

I think the point is to have fun.

I mean the point of the thread. 1cc'ing a shmup requires memorization beyond what's common to every genre by just playing, and as you say it's the beginning of proficiency in shmups.

Mushihime is immaculate kinography

did dangun feveron get a switch port?
i think most of the other m2 stuff did

Terminator 2: No Fate

I think the point of the thread is to shitpost. I enjoy autistically pretending to be a super hardcore SHMUP egoist, but being JUST wrong enough in not obvious to casuals to get someone who's really serious mad at me enough to demand that I post playthroughs.

I also enjoy pretending to be a completely clueless feeder who's just having a great time learning all these really hard games.

I think that's just arcade as a whole.
If you want to 1cc you will replay more times, and eventually remember what happens in like 6 stages even if you aren't actively trying to. But comparing it to rhythm games is retarded since you don't have a literal input sequence to follow, there will be multiple ways to beat a stage, some are better than others but for 1cc it doesn't matter as much as it would in a score run.

I'm partial to Broforce, which is stupid fun.

Why is it so inconceivably impossible for arcadefags to realise there might be flaws in the model and games?

Because nobody ever points any legit flaws, they just complain about being bad at the games.

But flaws are constantly pointed out, then deflected with "lol filtered get good"

ALL OF YOUR GAMES ARE WORTHLESS GARBAGE, YOU STUUUUUPID FUCKING CHUD!!

ermm.... arcadebros.... why wont you accept my constructive criticism of your genre?

kys

M2 are releasing the Toaplan catalogue at a truly glacial pace. I'm honestly worried they will never get to the games I actually want to play (except Hellfire, we did get that one).

things that never happened

I don't see anything ITT that doesn't amount to scrub talk

while still having plenty to do for the casuals

There's plenty for casuals to do in shmups - like subsidizing the game for skilled players by credit feeding.

This happens in every shmup thread however

OK, take Sunset Riders, a game I played the other day
There's a very tough guy with a whip, now how are you supposed to learn how to beat him, learn his attacks, his tells etc, without credit feeding but without dying?

Not a shmup but you are allowed to credit feed to learn the game before attempting a 1cc.

The great thing about that is that practice modes, save states, etc. are free nowadays. You do not need to waste money to learn how the enemy works. You have nothing to complain about.

BUT I NEED TO BE ABLE TO CLEAR THE GAME 100% ON THE FIRST TRY!

No.

But then the second fundamental problem happens
Say I can do the stages before whip guy fine, but die to him
So now I have to credit feed my way to him, just to get one more attempt at him, which I'll probably die at
Then I die, have to do it all over again until I beat him

save states

Not part of the arcade

Does anyone have that comic which goes like

I have problem

heres the solution bro

NOOOO I DONT WANT A SOLUTION I WANT TO COMPLAIN

I 1cc'd Mushihimesama on the easiest difficulty. Am I allowed to post here?

1cc is a thing because you need it in order to score. You lose your score if you continue. You don't need to 1cc a game in order to play it. For most oldschool arcade games, the home console ports gave you 3 credits. Later games often do give you a true ending for the 1cc though. So as far as "intent", it depends. Shoot em ups are only made for hardcore players today, because that's the only people that buy them.

We're talking about the arcade
That is the situation that happens in the arcade, and one of the fundamental problems with the model

Only if you have jerked to the bug. Not the fairy, only the bug.

No one in this thread is advocating for retvrning to playing games in an physical arcade
We are discussing playing arcade-style games at home
Are you legitimately retarded or something? This should be obvious

ask me what the problem with the arcade format is

i lay out an example

"uh that doesn't count retard"

This is why arcadefags are laughed at

Arcade is dogshit, every shmup needs a high res pc port with 5 starting lives option and stage select to even make survival feasible
I tried playing Saidaioujou on Mame and the blurry as fuck 240p kept getting me clipped
Cave would still be alive if they made PC games and not garbage ,restrictive, low res Arcade dogshit

That's how people practiced before savestates yeah.
But you aren't getting the whole picture: getting to the whip guy consistently without dying first is also practicing the game, and progressing by feeding is practicing what comes next, you are always learning something.

More like

describe a problem with a system that literally no one is asking people to use

pretend that this is some kind of silver bullet argument that will btfo everyone

get called out for being a retard and the fact that no one would disagree with that

pretend that you still have a point because you still want to believe that you're smart

I just don't like bullet hells.

literally no one is asking to use

is the system that's present in arcades

You sound like you've never actually set foot in an arcade before

I get that, but it's every time I want just an attempt at him, I have to do all these parts I know already, and that costs real money per attempt
That's the issue

No one is asking you to go to a physical arcade and spend money there
We are talking about playing arcade-style games at home using features like practice modes, save states, etc. where you pay for the game and those features all up front for a one-time purchase
No one in the history of all of Anon Babble has ever advocated for people going back to physically playing games in an arcade
You are arguing with your imagination
Not replying to you again. If you still dont get it after this, there's no helping you.

Does anybody elses dick not work and STGs are the only way for you to get hard? My doctor said I might be patient zero for this shit

As I suspected, you have literally never entered an arcade in your life
Besides, saying "uhhh just save state lol" is not actually a good defense

It's not an issue, it was the intended model.
You keep playing until you want to play it, you keep getting better and your score grows, eventually you will get to beat every stage on one credit, then you do that again but with better score than everyone else on the leaderboard

might as well play simon says, tardo

Post your simon says clear
You can't, because it's the game so hardcore no one has ever beaten it

captcha: prawn

Do any of you fucks even have arcades with shmups anymore? I'm fortunate enough to have a round one, and we had some "show me your playthroughs!" kind of asshole be a COMPLETE dickwad to some noob feeding the Red Katana machine. I think it's the only place in 30 miles getting new shooter machines in, not counting D+B's Top Gun, and I bet they'll all be gone.

Informationpill me on Darius

I can't even spell 虫姫さま in english, and they can't stop me from posting here.

No one in this thread is advocating for retvrning to playing games in an physical arcade

I am, at least when it's possible. The home experience doesn't have the same energy.

This is the thing, how is the kid supposed to know what comes up, how to play, strats to use etc without credit feeding to learn the game?

My previous job had a multi-board with a bunch of early 80s stuff but also 1943 on it. Gave me some appreciation for it. It has the common 80s trend of powerups being also a hazard taken to the extreme of needing to manually trigger the right one or you're fucked.

No one in the history of all of Anon Babble has ever advocated for people going back to physically playing games in an arcade

LOL. Will my eamuse, and banpas card do, or do you need to see paselli?

I fucking wish.
I mean yeah, there are arcade places around here but it's mostly gambling, dancing and racing shit. Not a single shmup in sight, no fightans, no big classics like DK or Pac-Man, no puzzle, no fun allowed. Around a decade ago we at least had a mamecab with multiple ROMs loaded in and I remember that did include shmups, sadly it was eventually taken down.

I know I'm responding to a bad faith argument, but credit feeding 3 bucks into a game was literally several dollars cheaper than a rental was. How is this even a "flaw"?

You are supposed to credit feed to learn the game, it's intended, that's the entire model. If you could just walk there and easily 1cc everything with maximum score, it would be both boring for the players and unprofitable for the owners.

I don't get it, how do I play her game

If you're supposed to credit feed to see the game, then decide you don't like it after you've seen it all and don't want to spend the time going for a 1cc, why does that make shmupfags cry and shit and seethe? If the game was good you'd want to master it
I credit fed Raystorm and saw how utterly bullshit it got at the end, and with no extends, why would I waste my time on that shit

I played a game and I didn't like it enough to want to play it further

No shmupfag cares about this. You're obsessed and think that shmupfags are thinking about every single thing that you do because you are mentally ill.

wah wah I got filtered

Ok, go play something else. You are allowed to quit, and we are allowed to correctly define you a quitter.

What is this schizo gibberish

See how shmupfags don't have an actual, coherent point to make? Just "heh filtered shitter scrub quitter shitter", just absolute meme comments instead of engaging with the substance

What is even your argument?

I played the game and didn't like it enough to keep playing it

why?

because it gets too hard

Ok cool, filtered by definition, now fuck off and go play something else.
That's not an issue with the games, they don't have to hand out a free 1cc to make you feel better about yourself.

one minute apart

anti-shmup schizo alarm!
youtube.com/watch?v=DiZHPCJY0IU

he thinks all difficulty is equal

I see the problem, you're retarded

What is the substance?
You literally just said "I played a game and I didn't like it enough to want to play it anymore. I bet the shmupfag boogieman hiding under my bed are SEETHING about this right now!!"

LOL.

What, it's pretty self evident.

I'd never played it before, and I was expecting something like cute anime fun instead of the complete rectal reaming I got.

mgsfag

retarded

Makes sense

You don't have to like it, accept these games aren't for you and move on.
There are many people who did like it that way and that's why the genre was both popular enough back and devs didn't want to change their core design.

....and the attitude towards the lightweights and casuals and semi shitters is why the genre is all but dead now.

There's a difference between seeing a later challenge, dying, thinking you can beat it with practice etc, and seeing what is obviously bullshit patterns so you feed more coins in
Besides, coin feeding is quite literally baked into the games design, as they wanted players to have fun, but not for so long they hogged the machine, so they had the first two stages be easy then ramp it up fast
That's not even getting into the nonsense Yagawa pulled

Whatever attitude hardcore fans have has nothing to do with it, the genre is "dead" (non mainstream with frequent high quality indie releases) because normalfags simply do not care about shmups. Shmupfags could prostrate themselves before normalfags on mass tomorrow and that wouldn't change shit, they just dont fucking care and never will care, dont pretend like theres some way of helping that, retard.

on mass

En masse

Shmupfags could prostrate themselves before normalfags on mass tomorrow and that wouldn't change shit

COMPLETELY missing the point. And that attitude is even more toxic than the fighting game crowd and the speedrunners.

doing x is why y happens

but even if we didn't do x, y would still happen

UHH YOU DIDNT GET THE POINT

kys

Yet people 1cc these games, so clearly the challenge can be overcome with enough practice, you can see how they dodge the "bullshit patterns" yourself.
Also I'm not advocating for never credit feeding, but only ever doing that and never attempting 1cc at very least won't make arcade games very enjoyable, hopefully I don't have to explain why.

It's not about prostrating, it's about telling those fags who want to change and casualize the genre to fuck off. Shmuppers were successful at one thing many other vidya communities failed at, you all wanted to gatekeep whoever wanted to change your hobby and even made a funni meme image about it.

OK, then explain why Raystorm would have zero extends and patterns like the stage 5 bosses, the lasers and the final boss

shmuppers were successful at one thing many other vidya communites failed at (gatekeeping)

Its not even about that. Shmups gatekeep themselves by just not being appealing to normalfags.

Cause shmuppers like it difficult.
Are you acting like nobody ever 1cc'd Raystorm before?

No, I'm saying that only the most hardcore of autists would bother after seeing that
Of course shmupfags completely ignore my point about Garegga and how they designed games to get people off, because it doesn't fit the le epic hardcore narrative

But shmuppers like high difficulty, so what's the issue?

It wasn't always that way. It used to be one of the stalwarts. A must have for every arcade. It's own section in Electronics Boutique.

If they REALLY wanted epic hardcore, they'd lean into pvp and unending difficulty, and accurate ranking of game difficulties based on ELO.

That was back in the day where normalfags had very few other options so they were forced into playing arcade-style games like shmups. When the 5th gen came around and non-arcade games became more and more prevalent, shmups became niche as hell right then and there. No one played them except the real fans, and that's how it should be.

pvp

hardcore

lol

A high score is eternal and can be chased as long as you and the game exist.
PVP is ephemeral and you can never go back to fight (player) in their prime.
This is why shmups and beat em ups will forever reign as the pinnacle of the arcade.

Playing shmups doesn't mean never touching any other genre, in fact it seems rather common for them to also enjoy fightans.

I really don't see what's the problem with a genre that challenges memory, but I take it that the complaint thats here is how shmups have peaked and stagnated in their design.
I mean, crossword puzzles, sudoku, and other brain games are one and done in their design but are still made because they're fun.

Don't think too hard about it, it's cope used by filtered casuals.
Also memo plays a part, but these games aren't just memo. Feels like that only applies to stuff like Psikyo second loops, so not even the main game.

anyone daring to criticise shmups is a filtered casual

There's more of that excellent good faith discussion

...which is to say the design patterns ossified, and the current concept is so weak that they got humiliated by the Bullet Hell steam sale.

Eh, not quite that simple. There are people who really fucking love the genre, who feel that it's correct and imperative to be assholes about it. They have a sustainable, but probably shrinking niche.

Maybe your "criticism" doesn't hold under scrutiny

All criticism against shmups is invalid because shmups are always perfect you filtered casual

Nice cope

...which is to say the design patterns ossified

Not at all. You're just doing your faggot little "you HAVE to water it down for normalfags!" shit again, fuck off.

the current concept is so weak

Literal meaningless sentence, there is nothing I can gleam from this

that they got humiliated by the bullet hell steam sale

That is up to the steam tagging system being done entirely by worthless normalfag cattle

heh where's your clears

Here, I did 1-ALL DOJBL

uh t-that doesn't count

And this loop continues, it's not worth getting good because it never counts as a real clear to these retards

Your fault for playing the games for validation.

LET'S MORKING GOOO

Deathsmiles

Didn't that fag complain about lolis?

it's his favorite cave game regardless

He doesn't complain about them, he just says that it might not be everyone's cup of tea and thinks it wasn't a great angle for releasing the game to the Western mainstream.
What he rightfully complains about is how DS2 fucking sucks cock and is ugly as sin.

Fair enough for DS2.
And yeah sure, objectively speaking lolis are kryptonite to most westoids but personally I respect CAVE for doing what the fuck they want in their games. Wish they tried VS shmups too

He had a whole virtue signalling part about how heckin evil the fictional drawing was
Never mind the amount of real life rape and trafficking, no that's fine, but the heckin drawings

All right, show me the exact moment when he did this. Post video link with timestamps, screenshots of a post of his saying this, etc. I'll wait.

Watch the deathsmiles video

Shmupsisters, btfo once again
Regroup in morks discord

Why do shmups always have the weirdest lore?

Which ones are you thinking about?

God this game is so fucking stupid
It's in like a way that's very cleverly designed and fun to watch experienced runs of, but damn I sure hate playing it

Deathsmiles is absolutely impossible to play on keyboard. This alone makes it a 0/10