What's the more important aspect of making a good video game, programming or artistic vision?

Doom 3 is fun imo, and I believe it made a lot of money. It's a slightly slower-paced horror shooter, so it is a departure from the original doom, but hardly anti-fun

The later generally speaking, but Carmack is far more based than Romero and far more instrumental to what made Doom and Quack good.

It's funny how all of the old Doom designers went on to make something of themselves, while Romero hasn't made anything of note since Quake.

Romero was a visionary with a very narrow view. His big defining project was Daikatana and it was a joke of a game.

Daikatana was undercooked. I've read how those who stuck with it and learned to get around its flaws found some good in it too.
Either way he definitely needs to be part of a great team to shine.

Daikatana could have turned out alright if he didn't try to play catch-up with id's engine.

If you want sales? graphics and epic emotional story

Artistic vision. A lot of the best games of all time are janky pieces of shit.

Doom 3 vs Daikatana kind of helps illustrate what a stupid dichotomy people have tried to make between Carmack and Romero. Carmack is a technical genius, yes, but Romero is absolutely NOT an artistic genius. Technical issues aside, his artistic vision for Daikatana was fucking retarded and frankly so were a lot of his ideas for Doom and Quake that thankfully never made it past the drawing board. From a work perspective, he's really only notable in a positive way for having more visual cohesion in his maps than, say, Sandy. I'll even be a total triple nigger and go as far as to say his maps were competent but kind of boring. sandy's map were often a bit of a clusterfuck but he made way more fun maps. he also made some total shit maps that weren't fun at all, but still

To make games that are actually fun to play

The worst maps in Doom 1 and 2 are attributed to Sandy, but he also made the lion's share of Doom maps and wasn't programming tools like Romero.

Carmack killed the office cat.

Romero's ideas are goofy but they're exactly the kind of goofy schlock ideas that you want for a 90s shooter game that's about bunnyhopping and rocket jumping your way through hundreds of mooks while running diagonally at 40 miles per hour

they're both vital.

This. Programming is slightly above due needing to be good as a solid program but that alone won't suffice, neither of these can't live without the other.

This. First Alice McGee game

tom hall

no hes right half life alyx gave me an action high no game has reached since the real issue is game companies arent willing to risk VR titles and if they do they half ass i,e GAME:VR edition™ HL:A should be the standard for VR games and we shouldve gone passed it by now carmack just envisioned a better timeline not his fault

They started with the quake engine and then switched to quake 2 when Romero saw the colored lighting, right? However, idk at what stage they switched engines, or if they were trying to work with half-baked tools

implying this sells

Captcha ahaha

Artistic vision and it's not even close.

Artistic vision is the rarest thing in the world.

He took it to an animal shelter or something. It was his cat anyway. A sad story, but not as bad as everyone makes it sound

I was under the impression it was because his biological entertainment unit was deficient at work

The cat was crazy, ran around the office making messes and iirc peed on his new couch

John Carmack's technical prowess matched John Romero's game design ability. They were both as good at their jobs as someone could be. It was lightning in a bottle for them to ever meet each other and make games together.

You can bruteforce through shit programming with just pure work and manhours, tons of impressive games have insane levels of spaggetti code. But if you have a shit artistic vision no amount of work will be able to fix it.

From the Masters of DOOM book, page 104.

Romero should have never been considered a genius at anything. He was the reliable all-rounder, but the only real genius was Carmack.

no hes right

proceeds to describe in great detail how he isn't

That statement wasn't about him identifying what is better in quality, which is also only anecdotically supported by your data point. It was about VR being the next, closest big thing in the industry. Which did not really materialize. It sort of started but ultimately went nowhere. From a business standpoint he miscalculated. Which itself is an argument of how multiple suboptimal business decisions of significant impact did not ruin his fortune, proving him to be exceptional in the context.

This is a more iconic team than id's.

Cassali was hired by valve because of his work on Plutonia, a DOOM wad.
The Source engine was made based on the Quake engine.
If it wasn't for ID, there would be no Gayben.

Romero was at least a visionary and an extremely hard worker. And he knew *a lot* about games and programming. I think doom and quake couldn't have been made without him.
Who knows if Carmack would have even done anything notable with adaptive tile refresh if it weren't for Romero seeing what they had on their hands.
Also Romero has his weird hyperthymesia memory thing... I think he really is a very talented guy.
But with all that said, yeah, you're right for sure.

Mitzi was having net negative impact on my life

Carmack speaking about his cat like he was a corpo topic

ID team listing her as Carmack's couple

Romero telling him she was being put down in a cheeky manner

mfw

God, these fucking autists... shame he didn't take her to a therapists for behaviour correction; this is possible sometimes to animals

Romero was... an extremely hard worker.

For sure, those games would have never happened without either of them.

cuckmack just did stuff that wouldve been done eventually. they already had 3D rendering in the 70s. the quake thing everyone slurps him off for was an algo from the 80s

Valve cocksucker has arrived the chat

Truth

animal therapy for behaviour correction

This was the early 90's. The world hadn't gone gay yet back then.

unbelievably retarded post.

Sounds like the Mitzi was sick. This guy is a supergenius but doesn't figure out he should probably take his cat to the veterinary when it starts pissing uncontrollably everywhere?

What, when he found out his pet had been killed was he supposed to go on a rampage through hell or something?

Artistic vision of course.
We have enough soulless well-programmed games. It's time we go back to letting actual artists design cool things.

he's not your dad, stop getting emotional over him

But they aren't a new thing. Only got visible because of the whole wave of hipersensitive fags; animal tamers aren't the kin of dog "stylists" and pet hotel "workers"

Carmack is an unlikable autist

Nah he's likeable and a lot of people like him. You're just a faggot.

You mean the fast inverse square root function which he didn't even write? That was a tiny part of quake with little importance. It's to impress normies with youtube clickbait
For the most part, of course the stuff he created would have eventually been figured out. Although, he may have changed the trajectory of modern gaming by forcing gpu vendors to support opengl

We have enough soulless well-programmed games

That's before or after those poor performance games they make nowadays?

Don't care, won't cancel him, stay seething

That cat was obviously stressed, animals don't do that kind of shit if you raise them well and give them the attention they need to not go nuts from depression and boredom. Carmack was a shit owner

Don't call him cuckmack

RAGE would be a better fit for this analogy.

Artistic vision, the game can be a technical marvel from a programming perspective, and it means nothing if the game it's in service of is mediocre. On the other hand, a game that runs okay with no serviceable programming but had a clear vision in art, story and gameplay that work well together has the potential to be great

He's a (very) high functioning turbo autist.
I'm amazed he even had a cat.
This line comes right after the previous print paragraphs. He's busy being autistic, he doesn't have time to be a pet dad.
Daisy is a retcon.

he's been here for years

t. mitzi

Mitzi ain't wrong; pets take a lot from their owners

no VR shouldve been the next upgrade like the graphics card was with doom you not being able to extract that fact is a sign of mental retardation

I decided to go for the purer example, Doom 3 is just Carmack robotically making a boring whatever game for the sake of showing off the new engine features he wanted to make and Daikatana is a jank as fuck game that can barely hold itself together as it tries to express John Romero's crazy set of unique FPS weapons in a weird cyberpunk-medieval-weeb time travel setting.

Both are equally important.
Quake 2 was for a long time remembered as a mediocre game due to its lack of challenge but after the expansions and decades of fan content we know the game always kicked ass but the base game failed to show it.
Play the map jams from Map Center, Quake 2 was GOATED all this time.

Meanwhile Romero and Tom Hall ideas were solid but they did not have the technology. Daikatana is a case study for all that can go wrong in game development. Anachronox was a fine game limited by the technology despite being something a kin to proto-Deus Ex.

Or you know, it just had kidney problems. Irritability and pissing everywhere but the litterbox are classic symptoms of kidney failure and UTI in cats - they respond to chronic pain by lashing out violently, and they avoid the litter box when they associate it with painful pissing.

And he responds by getting rid of it? That doesn't sound like something a good owner would do

Well none of what happened to VR was his fault, if anything he came so damned close to making VR a standard but couple of things happened outside his control:

-Valve was pushing Occulus as a finished product back when the first dev kits were sold to the public. Occulus was not ready for the general public and first impressions were at the time underwhelming. This lead to an arms race.
-Facebook acquired the company only to internally mishandle the project
-Valve backstabbed Carmack and pushed their own brand without making any improvements on the design, disloyal competition harmed the project significantly.

We had like 5 different brands of VR headsets that were worse than Occulus and all of them fare better in the market since Occulus could not rival the production lines of Samsung, Sony, LG, Leonovo or HTC. Even HP and Apple tried and not a single of those companies improved on the base design of the Occulus to the point all the designs are close to triggering several copyright infringement lawsuits had Facebook cared.

By the time Occulus as a product satisfied Carmack standards, it was way too late and now we are in a shitty economy where even stock consoles might disappear.

That doesn't sound like something a good owner would do

Taking care of a pet with disabilities is a lot more taxing than you think, sometimes the only one option is to put them down. It might seem harsh and cold but it is the right thing to do.

Masters of Doom mentions this anecdote to cement Carmack's no-nonsense stance but from experience, let me tell you, it is an herculean task.

I didn't say he was. I think Carmack's a giant fucking asshole and a genuine psychopath, who doesn't care about anyone or anything but his autistic projects.

A glitchless game is not always a good one...

but a good game always has glitches.

and at that moment, Anon was enlightened.

He released the source code to all his engines for people to learn from though, that seems admirable

A glitchless game is not always a good one..

In fact, from the second statement it is clear that a glitchless game can never be good

and at that moment, Anon was enlightened.

That anon is either here to stir shit or has some personal grudge. Carmack was not very kind early on but he matured since.