THIEF

is it possible to bring Thief to a modern audience without ruining it?
Will realistic graphics ruin it by making things in the environment to hard to discern?
They'd also need to add a progression system that will ruin the early and late game difficulty balance

I remember being a child and booting this up then closing it immediately because it was so dark.

gamma settings

Not being able to see anything is good because... it just is, ok? Le old game good.

modern games don't have good spatial audio, so no

is it possible to bring Thief to a modern audience without ruining it?

you just play the game

realistic graphics

progression system

no

Reminder that Nu Garrett sound like a fag even when Stephen Russell was voicing him
youtube.com/watch?v=6ZDHZyThW1M

Nigga Black Parade already brought Their to modern standards. It arguably features the gold standard for level design and environmental storytelling.

realistic grafix

Dark Mod

nu-thief will have map/radar and yellow paint everywhere.

I unintentionally almost completely ignored the progression system in Thi4f, I think I just got the lockpick upgrades. Thief really doesn't need it since it relies on the stealth detection being finely tuned and consistent throughout the game.
Also if the progression system is tied to the money you have then the player just ends up never using their tools so they save money for the upgrades

The main problem is slow pace. Zoomers with adhd have no patience for games like this. Turn based games like BG3 and Expedition 33 gat away with this by constantly showing bright flashing stuff.

They did years ago and no one liked it.

They are not modern standards, The Black Parade is a love letter to Thief 1.

that sounds pretty close to his original garrett voice

Black Parade is pretty much a "what if Dark Project was made without budget cuts and late 90s memory limitations". It's probably the last massive game with audacious levels full of secrets and verticality made by humans, as in the future level design will be offloaded to jeets and AI.

Why do you keep talking like there won't be good fan missions for T1/2 after Black Parade? You could make it yourself. Plus there is always hope for indies.

yeah but he talks like a fag

the night?... I own the night...

When will they make a Thief game where you play a non-verbal autist that sniffs panties?

Plus there is always hope for indies.

Gloomwood ain't it, that's for sure.

I doubt we're gonna see any more full campaign FMs. BP took a team of people almost a decade, sure they went extra mile with cutscenes, voice acting etc but ultimately building 3D levels by hand is a long and painful process, and future creators will start utilizing AI slop to speed it up.

How much could you get away with copying the original series? Can you do whatever you want as long as the names aren't the same?
Could you hire Stephen Russell and call the main character Gareth?

Thi4f had white paint on ledges

ultimately building 3D levels by hand is a long and painful process

E to extrude, S to scale, G to move and so on.

it's bird poo from all the ravens people keep

Thats what Dark mod creators basically did. They copied Thief universe 1:1 and then renamed everything to sound slightly different

Garett walks the night, Garett owns the night.
youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=zXyALtP85fY

not giving the player a loud, unsilenced weapon in a stealth game would be the first step. That's not even really a copied idea from it's influences, unless you count resident evil. But the fact that both thief and resident evil are influences is probably a big part of gloomwood's problem since those two series don't really mesh well when you combine certain aspects of both together.

and it's far better for it

It would be cool to see a proper stealth game making use of modern tech plus shaving off the few quirks of the original Thief. But if by "modern audience" you mean the mass market then the answer is obviously no. Stealth is niche, always has been. There's no way to bring it to more people except diluting down the mechanics, but then you risk making something that nobody wants.

Thi4f was THE example at modernization and they won't go past what was attempted there. It was basically Dishonored. And yet Dishonered fans, some of whom pretend to be Thief fans also pretend it screwed up in a completely different way, everything other than being the game that they like.

is it possible to bring Thief to a modern audience without ruining it?

Yes, it's called tfix.

few quirks

like what?

I could forgive most of the stuff in Thi4f, it's the shit rope arrows and level design that really fucks it up for me, you can turn off focus and that improves the experience a fair bit since when it does get a bit difficult you can't just focus your way out of it

Not him but stuff like that awkward zone when a ledge is too low to mantle but too high to jump comes to mind

it's the shit rope arrows and level design that really fucks it up for me,

I could forgive it it had been a good stealth game in general. I gave Deadly Shadows a go with no impressions from people telling me what to think and i liked it, despite noticing the flaws. It was far better at being a non looking glass philosophy game, but a fun sneaking game. In that instance the levels being less open didn't bother me as much.

Why copy it precisely though? There are many settings that could utilize Thief stealth system.

You can knock out anyone in open combat as long as you kite them to a dark area.

If you got all the people who worked on the Dark Mod and the people who made the Black Parade, maybe some inexperienced modders could come together and be competent indie developers to create something modernized? I believe The Dark mod did try to modernize in such a way that it is possible. They'll just never have the budget to achieve such a thing. Triple A considers the Adam Jensen games of Deus Ex to be 'too niche' therefore you have no hope of even getting anything close to Thief at a professional level. Even Warren Spector has announced an upset/trash game that is focused on co-op multiplayer rather than a singleplayer stealth experience.

Personally I want to see something that leans much more heavily into fantasy

Thief 4 did that and it didn't turn out so well. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the game. The core gameplay was fine - sneaking, hiding in the dark, finding stuff to steal, finding alternative routes so people won't see you etc. I liked some of the new mechanics too like throwing a glass bottle to distract people instead of relying on noisemaker arrows. What I didn't like was that getting caught and cornered wasn't nearly as dangerous as it was in the previous games, they definitely made it a lot easier to fight the guards. I also didn't like the new background music. The BGM in the old games contributed so much to their atmosphere and tone. They should have had Eric Brosius compose it again, or at least they should have tried to compose something similar to his work. I was also not very pleased with the new Garret. They made him talk like Batman, all serious instead of sarcastic and witty like the original.

If you want a modern Thief game that's more similar to the OGs, try the Dark Mod.

Stealth and sneaking was always a part of DnD settings, but there is a pitfall of magic that could turn your game into Dishonored and trivialize stealth.

You could make it so only certain bloodlines have access to magic and as a result they end up richer and more powerful, it would make the missions in richer areas harder too as a result

It can be when it finally releases in 2028.

Gloomwood is already more of an action game than pure stealth. Personally I think that blackjack is overpowered even in the original games. For my taste enemies must be more scary and difficult to remove.

Custom difficulty that lets you choose the knockout limit and more guards with helmets could fix that, maybe even guards wake up after awhile

The other guys already pointed out some, but I'd add awkward ropes (sometimes too close to a wall, sometimes you just bounce off), enemies being able to literally get stuck on you without noticing if the area is completely dark and you're blocking their path, dropping down from a low height like a bed causing inexplicably loud noises and so on. Also there are hidden mechanics that, while neat in theory, result in a lot of confusion, like enemies literally getting eyes in their backs when alerted to simulate the guard getting jumpy and vigilant. The effect persists for a while even after they give up and resume patrol.

is it possible to bring Thief to a modern audience without ruining it?

Yes with awesome UE5 demake made by jeets!

Well at least there's these two games to potentially look forward to, as far as indie games go.

In that sense, yeah it's not a Thief style stealth game. I still have high hopes for it. I also like the blackjack because Thief is about being sneaky, not being afraid of enemies. Guards that are supposed to be unremovable already have metal helmets.

And last clone i remembered that isn't Gloomwood was Filcher. It's an okay but flawed experience.

Dromed doesn't even have vertex manipulation.

There's an anon making a Thief-like game where you play as a wizard's apprentice and use some magic. It's really early, but it looks cool.

I wouldn't say it's flawed, it's just short and missions are small. One man project. And sadly it doesn't look like it sold well.

I liked hedon a lot and the guy who made that is working on a thief clone
maybe it will be good

hold spacebar in front of slightly high wall

instead of mantling, Garret stomps his feet loud enough to alert every security guard in universe

I quicksave before mantling in dangerous areas specifically so I don't get fucked by that.

Thief as a AAA super polished modern game will not work, as is the case with most immersive sims, you'd need to heavily change the game to make it palatable to the modern gamer, i.e. retards. A modern Thief will most likely come out of the indie market, like with Fletcher, which I haven't played so I won't comment on how successful it was as a spiritual successor.

the black parade is the best thief there is, and will ever be

Fletcher

Filcher*. I've been playing too much Morrowind lately.

Why does it need to be brought to the "modern audience"?

Can people not play the first two?

If they complain about the gameplay, then... they can just not play it. Not every game has to be made for them.

Not him but it's definitely flawed. The way guards are 2D and snap to 8 directions means it's really hard to tell how they're moving, and they'll just snap to looking right at you sometimes with no warning.

I think a neat way to solve the blackjack being overpowered would be for guards to notice their buddies are missing. Consider an area with a patrolling guard and a door guard, the patrolling guard expects the door to be guarded and the door guard expects to see patrols. Both of them could get more alert if they don't see anyone in a while, but an observant player could neutralize them in quick succession without alerting anyone.

we have to pass on our legacy to the next generation otherwise the world will become shit

Funny people shit on Deadly Shadows when it already did that. Guards notice missing patrols AND blackjacking is much harder (you need to stand directly behind and wait for animation prompt)

You cannot endlessly replay the same game, no matter how many custom missions people make

You could just make it so knocked out enemies wakeup. As it stands, killing guards is a completely useless feature.

Why not make it so that only civilians are bonkable and you need gas for guards(due to the metal helmets)?
Thief 2 already has this function

This would just cause players to drop unconscious guards out of bounds or in places they can't get back from. An easier solution is that once a guard is noticed to be missing, they are replaced with reinforcements. This means blackjacking is still effective, but players no longer habe the luxury to slowly and methodically clear out the whole map

I don't remember Deadly Shadows guards noticing other people missing. But they did notice open doors and missing items so maybe I just didn't notice. But that's also a problem in Deadly Shadows, there are no consequences to guards noticing stuff. They give up and go back to completely neutral a lot faster than they did in the originals where they remain twitchy for a long time.

Is it set in dwarf kingdom?
Hedon was pretty horny. Is it a dwarf porn Thief game?

Modern engines like Unreal and Unity can fix that.

Yeah you can. Finished black Parade a a fews weeks ago and binged through around 20 fms. And thats just Gold, assumingly Metal Age modding scene is even better

Dude 20 fms are nothing, everything is still relatively fresh

It's dwarves and shit yeah
it'll probably be horny but I think it's still pretty far from being released

And what's stopping players from just knocking out the reinforcements? Knocking out is no different from killing right now, since it permanently removes the guards from the level. You could change how body carrying works, where you have to drag guards instead of Garret throwing a fully grown and armoured man on his shoulder with ease.

I guess the idea is that dead guards can't wake up even if someone tries to wake them up, so in case you're expecting someone to find the body eventually, you "should" kill them to neutralize them for good. That's not really how people play these games, though, so the system isn't very well thought out.

Reinforcements could be larger and more alert, maybe equipped with unbonkable helmets and funny guard dogs from Black Parade

the last update was the research update

Man, I wanted the bank level. I thought a dozen people are working on the game now but the updates are taking forever.

In my head it would be more like

Knockouts temporarirly remove a guard from the level and is clean, but guards awaken in an alerted state

Kills permanently remove guards from a and is messy, so you have to use water arrows to clean up the scene

That would just make knockouts worthless, since the enemy you knocked out would be replaced by tougher enemies that can't be knocked out.

You could just make it so knocked out enemies wakeup.

I don't like this because that would essentially be a timer until you're royally fucked, because the guy who woke up is going to go alert everyone. The idea of added reinforcements if someone finds that his buddy has gone missing would be more fun I think.

you could add an option to choose the limit to how many guards you can knock out, lets players who want to bonk everyone do so and for others it means you either bonk nobody or need to save your bonks for the perfect moment

That would just make knockouts worthless, since the enemy you knocked out would be replaced by tougher enemies that can't be knocked out.

This isn't worthless, it's a tradeoff. You could always take a harder route and ghost past the guard, or you could take him out and face tougher opposition during extraction. You could take out guards in places you don't plan on returning to. Plus, like I said, it should only apply to guards that are noticed to be missing, like patrols or key officers

There's actually a mission in Thief 2 that does this.

I don't like this because that would essentially be a timer until you're royally fucked, because the guy who woke up is going to go alert everyone.

Exactly. Killing guards would be a viable strategy and have a purpose now. There could also be a hostage kit item that allows you to permanently disable knocked out enemies.
In all my years playing Thief I have never had a single body found, because guards don't patrol every nook and cranny. That wouldn't fix the problem of effortlessly clearing out levels

you could add a dual purpose to the rope arrows, trying up guards doubles the time it takes for them to wake up

Again, that wouldn't fix the problem. You'd just knockout every guard in the area before they could report the missing guard, turning knockouts into an all or nothing situation.

In all my years playing Thief I have never had a single body found, because guards don't patrol every nook and cranny. That wouldn't fix the problem of effortlessly clearing out levels

You've missed half of the conversation. It wouldn't be about guards finding bodies but guards getting suspicious because another guard is missing. There's a lot of potential there that no stealth game has really exploited.

Sure if you can/want to pull this off it should be a viable route.
I'll give you an example from one of my favourite steakth games that already kinda does it - Desperados. There are 3 types of guards found in it - idling niggas, local patrols who guard a small area, and global patrols that slowly walk in a large circle that encompasses most of the map. There are also civilians who move randomly and might tattle on you. If you properly take out a chain of these connected guards, you remain unseen, but if, say, patrolman notices that 5 of his pals went missing, he's gonna freak out, shoot in the air, and call for reinforcements that will start pouring from nearby buildings.

Yeah. but Instead of increasing the timer, I'd make it so the strung up guard wakes up, but can't move, so he just flails around calling out for help. That way you can permanently remove him from the level if you take him to a secluded area and sacrifice a precious rope arrow.
And that would just lead to you knocking out everyone in the area, especially since a lot of guards don't have overlapping routes in stealth games.
Didn't MGSV have something like that, where guards would report missing soldiers over the radio?

And that would just lead to you knocking out everyone in the area, especially since a lot of guards don't have overlapping routes in stealth games.

I don't see that as a bad thing. This would make the blackjack weaker not by nerfing it, but by adding more depth. I think that's always the more fun way to balance things.

In that scenario, wouldn't you just prioritise knocking out guards in a specific order? So you start off the global, then the patrolling and finally the idle? That doesn't really solve the problem of clearing out levels, which I think is the biggest problem with the stealth genre.

the biggest problem with stealth is people being methodically sneaky and clearing out maps

You don't want stealth, you want semi-horror stealth with super enemies that you HAVE to run away from or ghost.

no it is not possible. a huge part of what made thief enjoyable was the organic way you navigated levels with landmarks and a compass in lieu of having a precise map. navigation as a gameplay mechanic simply is non grata in modern games, they aren't going to do it.

Not really much of a nerf since it doesn't affect the effectiveness of the blackjack. It just leads to

I already knocked out one, I might as well knockout the rest

moments
No, I want stealth, which is why I hate perma knockouts, since it removes any need to be sneaky after a certain point.

you were an ignorant child. og thief 1 and 2 didn't have the tech to display actual low visibility dark. every 'dark' space you go into is low contrast gray, even with gamma turned down.

Imagine psycho Garett skinning guards and leaving their skinned body hanging on a rope arrow like the predator to freak the others out. He would hang them and hide in shadows nearby to see the reactions of others.

school-shooter-coded

No, I want stealth

No you don't. Reinforcements with some metal helmet guards stops systematically fully clearing maps. You just hate the idea of making any levels any more "safe" at all.

Go play Mark of the Ninja, it has a fear mechanic and hanging enemies is a feature.

Does Fortnite have a map though?

And what's stopping the player from knocking out guards that are going to call for reinforcements? What about levels where heavily armed reinforcements would make no sense, like a pagan level or some low-class district?

You just hate the idea of making any levels any more "safe" at all.

No, I hate the idea of making levels safe via knockouts, since it makes offensive options useless. If you want to make a level safe, you should have to get your hands bloody, if you want to make a certain part of the map safe, you should have to use your limited resources.

Didn't MGSV have something like that, where guards would report missing soldiers over the radio?

bahman has this as well
Hitman Contracts does it and it's great

I already knocked out one, I might as well knockout the rest

It's not that simple, because you now have limited time to knock out everyone in that area once you commit to blackjacking even one guard. Or, depending on the level design, you might even have to find out a way to knock everyone out in quick succession, which might be harder than just ghosting the mission. It forces you to think about whether knocking out one guy is worth all the hassle.

guards waking up

if your game has ragdoll physics then this is really difficult to get right, it's incredibly easy to put enemies into places they can't stand up or can't get down from, you could heavily nerf the dragging mechanics so you can't actually lift someone off the ground though

off topic but thief thread. wasn't it kind of careless to just randomly have hammerite priests that could throw fireballs and other blatant magic? like their entire thing is the rejection wicked earthly power in favor of the absent divine.

Is it?

Knockout stationary guard

Sit in the room and wait for the patrolling guard to walk past

Knock him out

And done, now nobody is going to report anything. Guard patrols would have to cover a lot of ground and constantly overlap to even make such a feature an actual deterrent.

what if knockouts can't be done if guards are looking for you, only when they're not suspicious or only slightly suspicious

Hitman Contracts does it and it's great

Was it in Blood Money too? Last I played I don't remember enemies waking up.

is it possible to bring Thief to a modern audience without ruining it?

but why? Zoomers can still find and play the original if they want to, the only purpose of a remaster/remake would be to make the IP owner some money

Impossible.

Wheres the issue? Those are clearly builder fireballs

It doesn't sound as hard
Merge all 3 games into one, reworking Deadly Shadows to be like 1 and 2
Make it possible to select every mission separately and customize it's difficulty
Improve AI and add new gimmicks to it
Improve graphics obviously
Game would run without issues on new hardware
Add new features, gadgets, physics interactions, try to rework disliked missions etc
Passionate team could do it

guards coming to a halt at ledges a quarter foot high and just shaking their fists at you

Hammerites aren't anti-magic, they are anti-pagan. There is purity in the Builder's Fire

And done, now nobody is going to report anything.

What about the other guards that have static posts elsewhere on the map, expecting to see the guard you just knocked out patrolling the area every now and then?

Guard patrols would have to cover a lot of ground and constantly overlap to even make such a feature an actual deterrent.

And? Thief already does this.

And what's stopping the player from knocking out guards that are going to call for reinforcements?

The fact that Garret isn't Sonic and can't outsprint 3 guards running in 2 directions. The other patrols could also walk by and see an unattended post when Garret isn't there. The hypothetical you're against is players camping out in one area and taking out waves of guards (that you're assuming never wear metal helmets) which makes no sense.

since it makes offensive options useless

It's not a combat game. Sword is for monsters, not gyards.

It would be weird if it was anything but fire. But the Builder is associated with fire. It's what you use to refine raw materials into something useful.

Hammers are a lot of imperium in 40k. They consider themselves rational supreme gentlemen but tolerate magic when it comes from cool saintly people by framing it as builders blessings. They also abhor necromancy but somehow have entire crypts full of undead haunts

Can anyone tell me why there is a Hammerite Cathedral in Thi4f? I didn't want to play it because I thought it didn't continue the story in anyway

What about the other guards that have static posts elsewhere on the map, expecting to see the guard you just knocked out patrolling the area every now and then?

What?

And? Thief already does this.

No, they don't. They have pretty simplistic route where at most you might have two guards with overlapping patrols, and said patrol routes are usually restricted to a small part of the map.

The fact that Garret isn't Sonic and can't outsprint 3 guards running in 2 directions.

Would guards not investigate the area first, or would they just do extremely cheap shit like break out into a sprint the moment they pass an unattended post.

The hypothetical you're against is players camping out in one area and taking out waves of guards (that you're assuming never wear metal helmets) which makes no sense.

Yes, because I was applying it to the whole game. I assumed guards would investigate before reporting and that guards from low class areas or pagans would not have metal helmets.

It's not a combat game. Sword is for monsters, not gyards.

So why does the game give you a sword, broadhead arrows, mines, fire arrows, frog beast eggs, etc on missions with no monsters?

Yes, because I was applying it to the whole game

Then there's nothing to argue about because the scenario you've cooked up ignores actual game mechanics, guard routes, and solutions people have proposed that work within those mechanics. Knockouts are a thing. If you want a hide and seek game, go play Amnesia.

They also abhor necromancy but somehow have entire crypts full of undead haunts

In Thief 1 you're disturbing their resting places, and in Thief 2, the haunts could be restless because mechanist heresy makes them so. Doesn't mean that hammerites are using necromancy to summon their dead brethren, just that their sense of justice makes the dead rise up to protect the place once more.