Why was TLOU2 so dishonest?

Was it the bland 3rd person shooting or stealth for five year olds that was good?

just let some random nutjobs run crazy experiments on your daughter bro

yeah she's gonna die, yeah people have died in our crazy experiments before but who cares right lol?

if you come in between us and your daughter, we'll kill you

w-what are you doing bro? ignore all the blood on the floor bro!

bro why are you shooting at us!!! we dindu nuffin!!!

Joel apologists actively lobby for a dumber story because their fragile emotions cannot handle moral complexity

Problem being is what was shown in the first game was less morally grey. There is no evidence that the Fireflies could actually do it, most things shown reinforces that these people are actually whackjobs.

A narrative with moral complexity, TLOU2 is not.

Show me your full game permadeath grounded completion screen if it's so easy, bro

Its called a retcon. Its when you want to make more money but the story is getting in the way, so you just change the story and hope nobody notices

What the fuck are you talking about? You want the fireflies to be wack jobs who have no idea what they're doing because you WANT Joel to be an unambiguously heroic character saving his daughter from the evil Nazi Doktors who were cutting up a teenage girl for no reason. I bet you think there were other immune people too lmao

Then show me evidence that they actually knew what they were doing instead of being crazy people who have already butchered innocent people for no results.

Why was TLOU2 so dishonest

cause Neil is dishonest

the whole discussion is erroneous because, like the treasure hunter indiana jones whatever games, all the ps3 moviegame shit is gay as fuck. it was always gay. thats why you were in the hands of druckman to begin with, you were already being gay assraped, and now you are complaining about how gay it was. lol

I would, but it must of been the wind because I didn't see your post

No timestamp? Based. Let me google one real quick and change it in ms paint so it won't register as itself if you Google image search it.

You really think they were going to get a cure from her? They were desperate idiots grasping at any straw they could.

have already butchered innocent people for no results.

This is literal headcanon repeated by Joel apologists who refuse to engage with the trolley problem at all

Apologize

They literally did though. This is stated in game.

If the cure is impossible, the entire story has no point and it's just another capeshit tale about epic hero man killing the bad guys

That's what it is.

In what way is the hero's journey "capitalist" when it has existed before capitalism as a concept came into being?

Correct, it's about a man getting his humanity back after seeing retarded barbarians doing anything for survival, even when it's for nothing

No, it isn't. I know both games chapter and verse and the "past cases" the doctor refers to are past cases of infection in general. His next line is literally "we have never seen anything like this (Ellie) before".

I won't get through to you though, because you self-insert as Joel and your feelings don't care about facts

If the cure is impossible, the entire story has no point

Just like The Walking Dead it was never about finding the cure; the shit world they live in now is the new standard, they have to survive.

Do male vidya anons seriously have no media literacy? GOD! That's the most inattentive read on what happened in TLOU1.
No wonder people hated TLOU2 if that's what they though. You're meant to think Joel DESERVED what he got at the start of Part II, not that he was "uwu poor miserable souls, mistreated by a POC and her Fireflies". He killed them all when they were gonna save humanity, so he could play the abusive father for his not-daughter.
You remind me of why my own dad is so terrible and why I never talk to him. I bet that's why you all identify so much with Joel, while jerking it to R34 of Ellie at the same time.
Fucking nonces.

The point is that love is both the great redeemer AND a selfish emotion that can lead to the worst atrocities imaginable in protecting one's own. Joel's love for Ellie saved him, but it also made him decide to.let the world die to save the one person he cared about more than anything.

Again, Joel apologists lobby for a dumber story because their only engagement with stories is self-inserting into epic hero man saving the day and ending rewarded.for being the most specialist bestest boy who ever lived

what is the Unreliable Narrator trope

Then think about it.

"we have never seen anything like this (Ellie) before"

Their first thought was LET'S CUT HER UP. Who the fuck does that? They could have done dozens of tests with her before going for that option but instead they just decide to kill the one immune human for potentially zero gain.

It's dumb writing if they wanted to frame it as Fireflies actually having a chance.

There was no retcon other than the color of the skin of the doctor Joel shoots, which was random in the first game.

The world is already dead. Nothing the fireflies could ever, EVER do can change that.

people actually played this crap?

The game does a SHIT job at explaining the fireflies having a chance if this was the case.

Every version of that stupid scene cleans up the room little by little. It's actually bizarre.

I think it's because Neil Druckmann really wanted to tell a story like what anon interprets it as and regretted the original take on it.

You know you have to actually explain how the fireflies can keep the world from dieing when you say that right? Nobody will take your word for that when the games themselves say they can't.

The entire premise of TLOU2 is structured around revisionism toward TLOU1. It relies on inconsistent themes to tell a very particularized story. I don't know much about the behind the scenes development of 2, but as someone who really enjoyed the first game, even the queerbait DLC, the 2nd game felt almost maliciously designed to undercut a lot of the themes and concepts in the 1st.

hack writer who insists his story is better than the one people already bought & enjoyed

ignore your eyes and ears joel is axtuallly an unreliable narrator

fuck off

bioshock was wrong you should actually butcher little girls for a stat boost

idk if you saw the part where someone develops immunity moron, are you supposed to kill the golden goose? chopping someone up for a chance at running a full medical development of an anti-fungal medicine in the middle of the apocalypse isn't a morally gray question, it's just stupid.

Random?

It's a contrivance because the story requires Ellie to remain unconscious so Joel can lie to her at the end. It's a little ridiculous if you stop to think about it but if you're the type of person who wants stories to make "le sense" first over emotional inspiration you're beyond saving

Reminder that Days Gone is the superior PS4 zombie game

There's only two reasons to play video games: to be the greatest hero or the worst villain. There's no other reason. Everything else is fake and gay.

In context with regards to the conversation of whether or not Joel's actions were justified or morally grey, discussing the fireflies and whether their methodology makes sense or was feasible is 100% relevant to it.

Listen bud if we are discussing the actual science behind a cure the entire story can't happen because cordyceps doesn't turn people into zombies

Jews.

We're not discussing the actual science, we are discussing whether or not cutting ellie up when she is the first and only known person with immunity to the virus is a good idea when there are hundreds of other medical experiments that could be done.
This wouldn't be so much a problem if we haven't seen before that fireflies did this type of stuff for shits and giggles on innocents.

I don't find the retcon the fireflies being able to make a vaccine being a guarantee and Ellie wanting to die for literally nothing an emotionally satisfying experience. Especially if it vilifies Joel to her.

british

thinks you should sacrifice children to make the harvest bountiful

otherwise you're stupid

this is why the romans made you people slaves

murdering 1 innocent life for a gamba roll at holding off a bloodborne disease is morally incorrect actually, isr*el is not in the right here no matter how much you or druckman wants them to be.

The HBO episode last night proved they went out of their way to make Joel look worse, despite the fact they'll also try to act hip and say he was right.

Joel's actions hurt a lot of people AND he only did what any father would have done

TLOU2 shows that both Abby and Ellie made themselves miserable by letting their hate for Joel fester and they should have just gotten the fuck over it and moved on with their lives. Gamers are just babies who can't emotionally navigate characters in a story not liking Joel for valid reasons that aren't portrayed as villains

This is what I don't get. Literally everything written after the OG TLoU is trying to reframe Joel as wrong in it. When in the context of TLoU alone, it was a dodgy situation and you could make the argument either way.

It's amazing how you morons haven't yet pieced together that TLOU1 is Joel's retelling of events, making him an unreliable narrator. The events of TLOU1 are his idealized fantasy. In reality it's more than likely he murdered Sara because she'd be a burden in a survival scenario.

It's amazing you just came up with this delusional take.

le unreliable narrator

Gotta be one of the worst writing tropes in history.

He also raped Ellie
Multiple times

I bet you still think the bugs launched the meteor across the galaxy in starship troopers too.

Game 1 is pretty open shut

Game 2 tries to recontextualize as "le unreliable narrator"

The fact I can think of multiple examples makes me mad. Unreliable narrator works within a singular work, not as a retcon of an original work.

What's the point of these threads? Cuckmann created Joel because he hates his father and wanted the world to hate his dad-Joel along with him. They sided with Joel, loved Joel and thought he did the right thing. So Cuckmann mad a mockery out of Joel, from all the sniveling about what he did, his introduction to Abby to getting beaten upside his head with a gold club, people still sided with Joel and Cuckmann has never recovered. He grew into being extremely woke after his "toxic masculine" father beat him as a child and believes a good story only comes from a strong female lead, which is why he tried to make Joel so weak and Ellie seem so strong along with Abby

almost certainly, she is a lesbian in the 2nd game after all

so what about all the story segments that don't include joel, especially the part were you play as ellie?

Neil Druckmann early life section on Wikipedia.

Why shouldn't you kill the fireflies after they show having no issues with bombing civilian centers less than an hour into the game?

Joel did nothing wrong, in the literal sense, figurative sense, and moral sense. Abby killed a man who saved her and Ellie hates the man that saved her.

Joels imagination, hence why he almost always appears at the climax of them as a heroic savior, like in the burning restaurant with the cannibal rapist

Nah that'd be the Rule of Three.

And I bet you are a moron who didn't understand the Starship Troopers book.

this is the single most dishonest thing druckman did with the re-write:

Joel did not lied to ellie, he hid the facts of what happened in order to protect her from the fact that
MARLENE LIED TO ELLIE.
Joel was a nobody to her, Marlene and the fireflies were literally Ellie's family, Ellie blindly believed in them. and they were the ones that deceived her. they were delusional ruthless charlatans that got everyone slaughtered with their good intentions and they would not even stop at dissecting kids.

Because the bombs are full of vaccination needles

yes, and the point is that Abby and Ellie were both wrong. You are just angry that the story depicts anyone being angry at Joel at all, because you are demanding that he be a mary sue beloved by all, because again, you are a manchild self-inserting into the video game character.

What book?

What's preventing someone from claiming the other points of view from the sequels are even MORE unreliable? Abby had a pretty idealistic view of the Fireflies, what makes her so much more reliable?

THREADLY REMINDER

fireflies didn't pay for the job

fireflies were about to throw Joel out into a zombie infested city with no equipment

fireflies are shown throughout the entire game to be retarded

even if they had a vaccine, 100x more likely they use it to make themselves the dominant power over any humanitarian concerns (imagine being able to fungibomb settlements, wait a week, then waltz in to mop up)

no tests, no consent, straight to prying a little girl's skull open and scooping out her brains

Joel did nothing wrong

He doesn't know

Fucking knew it, moron.

They adapted the movies into a book?

The Federation simultaneously claims that the Bugs are capable of launching an asteroid across interstellar space AND that they're not intelligent enough to be aiming plasma at the ships right above klendathu orbit. Something doesn't add up

They did. They launched two, but we didn't get the first one in time.

haven't yet pieced together that TLOU1 is Joel's retelling of events, making him an unreliable narrator.

oh boy, fresh cope just dropped.

Not spoonfeeding any further.
Have a look when the OVA came out and you figure it out.

Frankly I find the idea of a bug that thinks offensive.

I'm feeling some pent up anger here. Did Neil touch you anywhere ABOVE the belt?

I have a copy on the shelf right next to me. The movie and the book are completely divergent works. Just because you're too stupid to understand Verhoeven's implications in the movie doesn't mean any knowledge of the book is going to give you an edge.

also nta

The movie isn't linear. We see and hear about what they can do before we see them do it.

I liked the OVA, it's a neat little companion piece to the novel. Since it lingers on a bunch of action sequences that Juan really speeds past in the novel, like the firefighting incident with the aliens, or the training mission interrupted by a real alien attack, etc.

reminder that Part II is not canon. the director of the first game was fired.

That explains a lot.

joel is a mary sue

you people literally just hear arguments being leveled against you and try to use the big words without realizing they have meaning and you can't "no u" your way out of the argument

Nobody loves joel because he's powerful, they love him because he's a good dad. Mowing down a bajillion zombies wouldn't make people like him more, saying this when Abby and Ellie kill just as many people & zombies is insane

That explains a lot.

when MG Survive was out everyone obviously criticized the lack of Kojima. When Part II was out no one actually noticed that Bruce Straley was out. because he was one of the nameless firings that happened years ago. Kojima was smart enough to make his name synonymous with his game.

Joel would never say "good" when told he's about to kill a pregnant woman, or pull his enemy down from a cross only to start fist fighting them. Get your head out of your urethra.

he was also left out of the TV show credits.

I don't know why people can't concede that yes it's a retcon but the story is way more interesting if Joel actually did a bad thing to save Ellie. I feel like if the first game actually ended the way the second says it did and Abby was a little easier on the eyes Anon Babbletards would like this game.

You can't go back and rewrite something to make it more "interesting" and NOT expect people to be a little pissed off.

make more money

more like push a woke agenda

Maybe. Though I also like the idea of Ellie having regrets even if Joel was 100% in the right. I'm all to familiar with the feeling of 'what if'. She's upset because it wasn't her choice to make. To me that makes it interesting.

If everything bent it's ass backwards to make last of us 2 good, it would be good I avree

but the story is way more interesting if Joel actually did a bad thing to save Ellie

Joel Joel Joel... the one who lied to Ellie was Marlene and the fireflies. that's literally the big twist of the game, they are the one big hope that keeps ellie -and by association Joel- going and they turn out to be ruthless murderers.

part ii is Neil doing an embarrassing job at re-writing the first game.

fandomwire.com/the-hate-is-so-irrational-the-real-story-behind-neil-druckmann-allegedly-pushing-out-amy-hennig-after-the-last-of-us-success/

eventually Sony will fire druckmann, it's just a matter of time, money talks and the suits won't tolerate another multi million flop

LMAO laugh at this blind-ass nigga

Druckmann got hubris and fucked with his original creation.
Really, the fireflies deserved it for fucking over Joel so hard. He'd killed for far less. They had promised to PAY him when he completed his long and arduous mission for them; he was risking his life constantly for months to be their savior.
Instead he gets beaten, treated like pure shit, suddenly told they're gonna kill his best friend and daughter figure without much thought, and seemingly is going to be taken outside to be summarily executed in the gutter like a dog.
For these needless slights alone, he was righteous in killing them to take back Ellie.

and yet Neil wants us to believe that Ellie felt betrayed by Joel
AND NOT MARLENE.
WHAT THE FUCK KIND OF DISHONEST RETARDED WRITING IS THIS.

Play as Ellie

vicious attack dogs that jump on anything that breathes and want to maul you to death

Play as Abby

look at these cute and wholesome good boys, they even all have cute names and personalities:)

People always get mad about Abby saying "good" when Abby literally has every reason to believe that Ellie murdered Abby's pregnant friend in cold blood, knowing full well she was pregnant

This can't be real, just how many nogs does this game have? I thought it was just the Angrboda girl

do you think police k9 dogs are kept in awful conditions and have to be kept caged or else they'll just maul everyone they see? It's trained behavior. Of course someone aligned with the WLF wouldn't be attacked by WLF dogs

APOLOGIZE.

who have already butchered innocent people for no results.

i like chuds bringing that stuff because it shows very clearly that they are a bunch of schizos

there was no retcon

The story literally does not work at all if the fireflies were incapable of creating a cure.

Why was TLOU2 so dishonest?

Because Druckmann hates TLOU1.

the first game's ending is already morally ambiguous and makes the player think about joel's choices. you don't need to go back and write it so "nope, joel is le evil white man nazi and the fireflies are the freedom fighter avengers who would've saved the planet" is the objective take

Okay, let's imagine that by dissecting the brain of the only immune person without studying her first for a few months, doing tests on her blood, etc., they manage to develop a vaccine. How will they mass produce it? How will they train enough personnel to deliver the vaccine to the survivors, find the vein, not inject air bubbles, etc.? Then who would accept an injection from a stranger in a post-apocalyptic world? Then, okay, let's say they succeed, they vaccinate 100% of the survivors, well, zombies are still dangerous, they can always just tear you apart.

Oh and btw, we were supposed to pay you in guns for bringing the kid across the country.

Well, you'll get nothing. We'll just take all your gear and throw you out.

Good luck surviving, lmao.

I don't think you were understanding the implication of my post.

His next line is literally "we have never seen anything like this (Ellie) before".

And his first réaction was "WE NEED TO CUT HER BRAIN BRO" ? instead of carrying out tests on his blood, bone marrow, saliva, try to make him have a child to see if immunity is transmissible, etc.? Well those retards deserved it

but it also made him decide to.let the world die to save the one person he cared

And yet in the 2nd part they have big city, with electricity, watch movies, they even grow weed

but if you're the type of person who wants stories to make "le sense" first over emotional inspiration you're beyond saving

Jesus fucking Christ. No wonder media is as hollow and worthless as it is now if there's retards like you who actual believe and say stupid shit like this.

The events of the first game are actually from the second game- Joel is justifying his behavior in killing the Fireflies years after it happened. What we see in the second game is how it ACTUALLY went down.

go away druckman

They needed to make their piece of shit story work somehow, they failed.

Even if they could have produced a vaccine they deserved to die for betraying Joel.

if you're the type of person who wants stories to make "le sense" first over emotional inspiration you're beyond saving

what disease is the opposite of autism because you have it

I want you to know you're responsible for corporations putting out garbage in media as if intention > a coherent fucking story

It's actually incredibly easy to write stories in which characters act & react with reason if you're not a hack trying to hamfist your new intention into an already established story

*kiss*

black vikangs

Why do they keep doing this shit?

Because it wasn't planned at all when they made the first game, it's obvious.

It's a little ridiculous if you stop to think about

not a little, and you really shouldn't need to stop and think about to realize how retarded it is. even the devs knew it was a crock of shit which is why they went back and changed anything they possibly could while still saying "that's what actually happened tho!"

a little

and yes Abby killing Joel is not the same as a retcon but saying people got "a little" upset about the supposed retcon is silly

How it actually happened

Posts the terrible remake

12 years ago

The original game is an absolute masterpiece. if you haven't played it, unironically get a PS3 or a PS4 and play it. forget the memes and the sitposting. there is no sequel. it's a standalone gem.
youtube.com/watch?v=W01L70IGBgE

Oh man I love how my thread resonated with people few weeks back

TLOU was written by a White woman
TLOU2 was written by a jew