Why do classictrannies always try and pretend that WoW wasn't always all about the raids?

Why do classictrannies always try and pretend that WoW wasn't always all about the raids?

forgot to add - classic andies always talk about "exploration of the world" - what the fuck are you exploring nigga? shit's been fully explored since 2005

Vanilla (not Classic) WoW had a thriving leveling community. Loads of people never made it to endgame.

Classic was unable to replicate this because it simply didn't have the constant influx of new players that Vanilla had throughout its life. Vanilla WoW was a game that was growing so brand new people were joining every week and the entire leveling band was constantly being refreshed. Classic had one big surge of players all at the start and when they dried up nobody new came in to replace them and the open world fucking died.

so what's the point of leveling if not raids?

Hey op, you gonna menstruate about Warriors some more?

Why would I? I main Rogue - and I ONLY play for raiding, because that's the only reason to play WoW

because it takes like 5 months to reach 60 at the abysmal dogshit rates the original game expected you to level at so they tell themselves they had fun in that time

i main the discount warrior

el oh el

part of me thinks they're just parroting what e-celebs say about the game. I've heard retard streamers say it's about the world and they're probably just copy/pasting it

the other part of me thinks it's because they don't want to admit it the real reason they enjoy the game so much is because it's just a more involved version of cookie clicker

To experience a living world with other players while having direction in your activities.

no need to pretend when it's objective truth that back when 'nilla came out raids were just an afterthought. plenty of fun to be had doing anything else. there were more players not doing raids than actually doing them. Naxx is an even bigger case in point
nowdays though with how hyper optimized everything is, you can get to 60 in no time and then live in battlegrounds/do raids once a week. nobody cares to do any of the other social shit that was a novelty back in the days

discount warrior

why the fuck would I play the gay brown class that has to roll against 10 other players for my loot and sucks dick in PvP/at leveling? Absolute retard take here

naxx wasn't mean to be cleared or even entered by most people. It was meant to be a prestigious thing. They wouldn't wouldn't spend months making a raid like naxx if it was an afterthought

why the fuck would i play the best class in the game? i'm retarded

we know

I remember there were RP spots in goldshire or some shit, and people spending all day on auction like it's Anon Babble

the game is totally all about the raids bro

uhm actually you weren't even meant to step foot inside it

why not go play fucking VR chat by that logic?

It's meant to be a lot of effort to enter the final raid in the progression and naxx can takes months of playtime before you even step foot in it. What I said isn't a contradiction

game all about one thing

but it's just for prestige

think about what you type before you type it

you know there's more than one raid besides naxx right?

reaching complete BiS is a journey too

questing

brainless, easy, just a means to reach level 60, doesn't count as content

open-world pvp

no such thing, you either gank someone or get ganked by someone. There's no structure or large scale battling over control points.

dungeons

again, leveling content meant to give you XP to reach max so you can do the raids (real PvE content)

battlegrounds

Ok, I'll give you that one but they get old fast

I can tell you never played classic beyond level 17

Its part of a journey, not one on its own.

The journey is everything you ever do within the game. Every item looted. Every item crafted. Every fight won. Every fight lost. Every piece of gear equipped. Every person met. Every point of experience gained and every gold earned.

All of it.

Boiling it down to HAHA I GOT BIS I WON LOL is reductive and insulting to yourself. If all youre doing is wanting "the best gear" go play PoE or Diablo or something cuz loot is all those games are about.

This nigger is clearly trolling. Reductive contrarianism at its most obvious.

stop coping and parroting what faggots on twitch say retard

people do care about the items in classic, it's one of the main reasons people prefer vanilla and TBC over retail. Vanillas items are just much better than retail cause they're all hand-statted and have interesting and cool effects

use a trip, you were doing this low effort bait posting shit yesterday

They're blinded by nostalgia and addiction. Simple.

I love female tauren.

Still upset from yesterday's thread?
If they were all about the raids then there'd be no open world. The game would just be a lobby where people wait for LFR queues to pop.

Is WoW an RPG or action game? There's your answer.

where's the RPG part? +3 strength on a fuckin sword?

U stupid nigga

I was pvp undead warrior, i did the absurdly long AV sieges where sometimes one match went on for days. did it for the love of killing noobs, but i'm not a kid anymore and can't go back, plus blizzard sucks now

Why do zoomers pretend to know about things they weren't alive for when people who were alive back then say something they don't like?

MMORPGS are dead. They were only alive because social media didn't fully take off. It filled that niche void but no longer does that.

It was about fucking around in a seamless virtual space with people from all over the world at a time when this was a new concept.
Raiding wasn't something that people took seriously until TBC when it was not only made accessible (despite the attunements) but the gear was more clearly defined. People forget how good the vanilla pvp sets were and how the epics were basically equivalent to AQ gear. Nobody did Naxx anyway.
Arena was your only shot of getting purples from pvp so you kind of had to raid if you wanted them.

That combined with the same out-dated game formula being repeated over again, with broken leveling systems...everyone kept praying for a WoW-killer but all we got were fuckin WoW-clones

maybe "all about" is too strong but I'd say raids are more of a focus than the open world, yeah

Raiding wasn't something that people took seriously until TBC when it was not only made accessible

Most people didnt care about raids. Raids was a forced meta by blizzard. Most people played casually doing 5 mans and world pvp / battlegrounds.
Wow vanilla raids had like a 1% completion rate if that, i think only 1% even botheed stepping foot in nax. Before classic everyone seemed to think its because classic raids are super hard, turns out they are pretty easy, and you can pug MC/BWL. The real reason naxx was only like 1% completuion rate was because you had to raid A LOT, like 2-3 times a week to clear all raids in vanilla, this is on top of farming before the raids. Back in the day people didnt use world buffs for raids very much because it was common knowledge you would win or lose based on your raid teams ability to do raid mechanics. Given like 80% of people were only showing up to raids to get gear to PvP with and hardly paying attention to raid leader this could be hard to pull off. I remember wiping in MC like 4 times because mages couldnt seem to get the memo they needed to focus on decurse.
Raid retention was a huge issue, many people just wanted to show up to get gear for PvP then quit raiding. A VERY small minority of people were ok wtih treating the raid scene like a second job and putting in the work.

Classic meta is nothing like it was in actual vanilla. if you want the actual vanilla experience, back when a raid would be out for months before anyone cleared it, you would have to release all the raids at once, and then have 90% of the playerbase not even try for raids or to immediately quit raiding when thy get a good weapon for PvP, because thats what it was actually like. Guilds would be trying to push AQ40 but it would be hard to get raiders willing to die in raid and learn the fights, most would just want to come to MC for easy loot.

t- played in 05 and was in a hardcore guild, or wannabe hardcore guild we had serious problems getting regular raid members and had problems with people just coming to get PvP loot.

Because for a period in vanilla raidsloppers were forced to do PVP for their bis, which was less bad back in the day because it was a small group of giga autistis that did that vs today its like 85% of the players meta chasing in a solved game

how can you say it was made accessible when there are literal bosses that gatekeep you from the rest of the game till you git gud enough to kill them

stats dont lie bro. EVERYONE raided in tbc. at a minimum kara was their most successful raid ever that the most players turned out for because it was 10 man and more classes could do more things. also reducing the raid size down from 40 made it more accessible too

more spec viability and smaller raid size
also the access to online material was more readily available. people had better internet in TBC than in 'nilla

I think people take the stat of most people not clearing naxx and act like no one raided in og vanilla when that's not really true. MOST of the raids were done by the average player. MC runs happened regularly. Naxx is the outlier because it's hard to enter and even harder to full clear

vanilla was meant to have more viable specs but vanilla is unfinished and they didn't get around to giving most classes more than 1 viable spec

smaller raid size

smaller raid size means less room for error. I'm pretty sure the only boss that came close to the low clear rate sunwell and vashj/KT had was kel'thuzad

by the way this is one reason DKP was so popular back in the day. Raid retention was such a huge issue everyone used a loot system that rewarded regular attendance because thats the best system they could have used to get people to willingly show up and put in the work, they knew as long as they showed up to enogh raids and were willing to bid high they could eventually get the items they wanted.

the game didn't release with battlegrounds so it was not part of the intended leveling experience

isn't classic even more about parses than retail? Like retail has actual content outside the grind hamster wheel.
Also I'm pretty sure there was some drama about one of the sod raids and gatekeeping people with bad logs.

Why do classictrannies always try and pretend that WoW wasn't always all about the raids?

Because nobody played the raids, they all quit before raiding.

Fun. A concept you parsetroons fail to grasp.

God I love talking about Vanilla WoW, but every time I play it again it's just not the fucking same, man. It's over.

Blizzard started removing attunements because not enough people raided, it wasn't worth the effort making raids with how few people were actually engaging with them

MOST of the raids were done by the average player.

no lol. Most people who wanted to raid could clear MC and the 20 man catch up raids ZG/aq20 with some difficulty but thats where it stopped. BWL and AQ40 was for hardcore raid guilds only. Naxx was the elite of the elite sweatlords with no life.

no the attunements in original TBC were there the entire time till the sunwell patch (except the SSC and TK ones). Blizzard removed all the attunements early in classic

It's better to remember playing instead of playing. Took me a long time to realise this.

they were there the entire time

except they weren't

good argument bud

blizzard removed the SSC and TK attunements early in original TBC. They removed them all early in classic TBC. What's hard to understand about this?

the game is fun when its you and your friends discovering it for the first time and brainstorming/debating what you think is going to be in the next big content update while you run around enemy territory to troll enemy faction. Its soulless as fuck when you have everything figured out and are just going through the motions trying to "win" at endgame.

You're just explaining my own point back to me I don't understand what you're trying to get out of it

Here's the truth that the hivemind doesn't want to accept:

Retail WoW, in it's current form, is the best that WoW has ever been. There's a ton of stuff to do, plenty of gearing paths, the gameplay is engaging, there's tons of shit to collect if that's your thing, the graphics are improved, and the game is just fun.

Classic was a product of its time, and compared to modern WoW, it sucks cock.

India has an average IQ score of 76.2, ranking 143rd in the world.

Good Morning Saar

WoW was about the World PvP.
I would play a current version of WoW again if it made the world matter and act like a RPG again, with ground mounts only, no layering, PvP flag always enabled except Santuary zone.
For me, as a 20 year+ WoW player, I only played the game for the PvP and the PvP community. I never cared for raids, PVE, mini games or events, etc.
I think Blizzard should've made a PvP only MMORPG when icefrog offered to help them do it years ago, but they shot down the idea and said PvP wasn't relevant.

just because you care only about pvp doesn't mean everyone does

i played wow for 3 years and barely raided

okay?

fucking based

Which is exactly why Icefrog and other arena top pvpers in the 1% yeaes ago, proposed to blizzard to make a PvP mmo seperate from WoW because PvE changes to classes was ruining PvP balance.
They didn't care to listen.
I'm not saying PvE doesn't matter in WoW. But for me, it doesn't really matter to go kill an end game boss for an item that won't be relevant 1 patch down the road.
PvP gear you would earn over weeks of effort and that gear mattered in the world for a long time.

an item that won't be relevant 1 patch down the road

that's true in retail but not a thing in vanilla and TBC

hows retail pvp?

Raiding is actually a minority event in WoW landscape. Go look at the top viewed WoW content the past 15-20 years.
Its all PvP videos with 100s thousands of views, some, like Reckful 3, Millions.
Meanwhile, the devs and their top 0.1% guilds all jerk each other off every new raid tier to see who can beat a mathematically impossible boss fights scenario raid that no real player even does, just to enflate each others ego.
Raiding is a casual event for 99% of players, where you join a raid with strangers (pug) or a guild, get loot then don't talk for a week.
Do you use that loot for anything in the world? No. You AFK in town until next week reset. Better open your vault. Do your weekly chores. Fill a bar.
WoW was never designed to be that. It was Warcrafr, PvP oriented.

1-2 classes have CC chaining capability, which is ruining PvP balance. Shadow Priest, Ice Mage, etc, can chain CC stunlock you out of a match of arena, and just dps you down.
I was watching Venruki play monk only yesterday, now granted, this guys top 0.1% player in the world, and no matter what he did, he just couldn't play the game.
The issue with modern WoW PvP, is its about burst damage and CC, and thats literally it.
Old WoW PvP arena and arguably BGs to a degree, was about player skill and their class toolkit.
Now every class can do everything.
Its why Rogue as a Class in both PvP and PvE has become the joke of the WoW community in retail, because it does piss poor damage and is worthless in PvP now.

Because some of us actually played vanilla and know a huge portion of the playerbase, if not most of it, didn't raid at the time. Raiding is simultaneously really cool and really dogshit. The best part of vanilla was Azeroth. Traversing the world as you leveled, going into all the different dungeons, and engaging in pvp (especially world pvp) was what made vanilla wow so loved. Raiding was just there for 60s to have something to do besides pvp, but the most fun was had while leveling. It's still the part I enjoy the most. Deciding to take a break while leveling a rogue to run to a zone of similar or somewhat lower level to kill opposing faction members OR grabbing a group of friends/guildies as any class to go camp an area in neutral/hostile territory for a while before fucking off to go do a dungeon is peak WoW. No expansion ever came close to that experience because Azeroth got left behind.

Was thinking about resubbing. Nvm

The best part of WoW was leveling for the first time when absolutely nobody had any idea what they were doing and wikis didn't exist so you were incentivized to ask for help ingame
Raids were only cool the first time and should have been phased out of the game entirely instead of doubled down on

play turtle wow

does everything classic did right and adds more of it, including exploration

It is so depthlessly funny how a bunch of russian nerds and troons can make a better game than blizzard

The issue is retail WoW has to make every class feel like they are a winner. No one is unique.
A jack of all trades, but master of none.
Every class has tons of AoE damage abilities, thanks to mythic+, and these AoE high damaging abilities also ruined PvP.
Every class has a burst damage CD or a proc of some sort, to do absurdly more damage in burst windows.
This is where the game balance PvP wise, breaks apart.
The stradegy for Arena or BGs, is to chain CC the biggest threat, then coordinate passives proccing, CDs, into suddenly front loading MASSIVE damage into one target, pretty much instantly defeating them = you won the game.
Its no longer about player skill or class design or idenity.
Hydramist, a rank 1 priest player in EU for decades, described this the same way I am.

Its about the journey. Not the destination

How's turtle wow pvp again?

crickets

I'm sick of these classic fags. All they rave about is muh exploration muh community but if you login to a classic server all you see is advertising for gold buying and boost services. If it's such a good experience then why do these things exist? Oh that's right, cause it's shit but people wanna cope

Its why Rogue as a Class in both PvP and PvE has become the joke of the WoW community in retail, because it does piss poor damage and is worthless in PvP now.

I remember in dreanor a lead dev, holinka, hated rogues so he made it so an item everyone could get would basically just counter a rogues toolkit in PvP. It was stackable to like 100, easy as hell to get and basically gave the rogue faeri fire, so you couldnt go into stealth. Not that you could be seen in stealth, you literally could not go into stealth which completely hard countered an entire rogue spec which was about going into and out of stealth. Stackable to 100, lasted 1 min, and had no cooldown.

This same dev designed the PvP event farm thing and it was one of the most poorly designed PvP events i have ever seen, maybe worse than AV, the whole thing was designed in such a way the 2 factions had no reason to even see each other, you just ran around in acircle doing PvE events and by that i mean you would stand in an area until something happened and would get honor then run to the next area to wait for the PvE thing. And that was the expansion PvP outside of arenas.

Draenor was the expansion that made me realize the wow devs actually didnt know what the fuck they were doing but were also making personal decisons about game design to make the classes they liked fun while screwing over other people. Total shit show. The guy wasnt even really a gamer he just got out of buisiness school then started working for blizzard and somehow got to design a bunch of stuff, and it all sucked ass.

I could design a better PvP event on a whim in like 15 minutes. Its actually mind blowing how bad they were when i played.

All they rave about is muh exploration muh community

because they are speaking about the 2005 game, not the modern game.
it once did have a community without bots and toxic tryhards.

Sounds fucking gay to be honest. MMOs with good PvP are dead I guess.

that's why I like vanilla and TBCs class design the most. In TBC you wanted one of every spec in a raid cause they all brought something useful and different

it really is amazing how could blizzard lose the lgbtq2ia+

They made an entire server entirety for "world pvp" and its all

crickets

Turns out, people don't think getting ganked by level 60 rogues is "pvp"

Those are all banned on turtle. Gold buying, gold selling, boosting, multiboxing, even GDKP so it feels actually like vanilla. They even disabled world buffs in raids, so raiding is not about whoring goddamn songflowers in Felwood. Again, so fucking hilarious that a bunch of faggots know more about what makes the game work well than blizzard.

survival crafting sims like Rust have taken the spot for MMO with PvP. and before you say rust isnt an MMO you have servers with 1k people and they are all playing on the same map, thats more MMO that a battleground in wow with 80 people who dont even PvP each other.

But why won't they let it go? You literally cannot, no matter how hard you try, make the game feel like 2005 again.

I hate those types of games. Full of fags and weirdos. They're usually buggy as fuck too.

But why won't they let it go?

would you?
pshero, a streamer, plays wow classic every single day, even though its dying/dead, because he loves it. he even went into autistic detail about he only likes classic pvp and modern pvp is garbage compared to MoP/WoD PvP.
the info is all out there.
have you ever asked a classic wow player why they wont leave it and play something else?

Cause it wasn't. It was glorified IRC where people would just do random shit like dueling, leveling alts, playing hide and seek in Stormwind or farming mats while chatting with their online friends in guild, party or general chat. Elitist raiding trannies used to be ridiculed, especially since arenas were way harder.

That game officially died when discord came out. Everyone went mute while blizzard slowly conditioned players into becoming toxic minmaxing cunts by slowly cranking up difficulty and adding timer rewards in MoPs challenge runs and m+. Crossrealm and realm hopping bullshit killed whatever was left of the social player.

Full of fags and weirdos. They're usually buggy as fuck too.

yeah they are filling the MMO spot all right

its like people who still play and love old school runescape.
nothing else exists in the current market and no one dares to try repeat what wow classic did again.

raids are the only good content in WoW

Nah there is no good content in wow period that's why it would never work as as single player game

I'm sick of these classic fags. All they rave about is muh exploration muh community

You are potentially confusing people talking about what they loved about vanilla with actual Classicfags. They're different games. That said, I do still love the world in vanilla/Classic. I'll probably never stop enjoying leveling entirely, even if I do need lengthy breaks in between.

gold buying and boost services

These are in every single fucking MMORPG on the planet. There will always be people who are impatient or endgamefags who want to skip the ride. You see so much of them in WoW because nuBlizzard doesn't give a fuck about them.

They even disabled world buffs in raids

Based. Fuck the buff gathering meta and everyone who enforces it.

diablo 2 is pretty close to what a single player wow would be

Pshero is a high rank pvp player and not the kind of player anyone was in 2005. People these days play for a purpose, a reason, a goal. That's not how people played back then and this mindset was not meant for the classic game you can clear the content very fast

pshero has been playing wow since 2005 dude. it was like that in the og game, world pvp, granted not as optimized, but it was a massive part of the game.

Wow as a genuine cultural phenomenon and not a niche activity was entirely propelled by pvp from early content like world of roguecraft to blizcon and rekful streams etc straight back around to monkeynews clip videos for promoting vanilla private servers. No one ever got the same hype for the raid content it is just not a thing.

yep, and its ass

diablo 2 is pretty fun for a while

My rule of thumb is that you haven't really played vanilla WoW if you didn't spend at least one afternoon doing nothing but chatting in that secret valley west of Stormwind with a small house and fallen tree trunk.

Old WoW PvP arena and arguably BGs to a degree, was about player skill

t. Rogue/Mage/Priest who confused having 1.5-2x as many options as other classes as having skill

Don't worry, TBC Classic is bound to happen and you get to play your precious "balanced" arena again.

I thought TBC classic again was already confirmed?

WoW was about the World PvP.

play wpvp

lose nothing

gain nothing

?

play wpvp

lose time

gain fun

truly groundbreaking

wrong but whatever, no use arguing about a game with someone who never played it

Why would Theknife do such a thing?

tbc arena will always warrior druid in my mind

They get buckbroken by rogue/mage.

but then you have lock druid

The only people who truly experienced WoW are those who played it right when it came out, when nobody knew anything and it was truly a big, mysterious world to be explored. Now that it's a solved game, it's just repetitive, boring slop.

t. parsetranny

Maplestory Classic had it right, there should be absurd leveling grinds and max level should be a pipe dream only enjoyed by the sweatiest fuckers that play 24/7 for an entire year. Make leveling impossible again, make leveling long again. Make leveling have content again. Make leveling have raids. You are not entitled to max level. It's high time levels started meaning something again. To many times have I seen in even anime that a high level is some far off concept that few make it to even with effort. The journey should be better than the ending. Endgame ruins video games and gets rid of the point of a level counter.

Make leveling impossible again, make leveling long again. Make leveling have content again.

again

We're talking about WoW here.

Wow should have 0.25x exp rates

Make leveling have raids.

Man, I was so fucking excited when this was revealed about SoD. Too bad about so much else in SoD. The phases took forever; the balance was even worse than expected (especially for PVP when I was playing); and it was too easy outside of the new raids.

Make leveling impossible again, make leveling long again. Make leveling have content again.

again

That said, I would be interested to see a take on Classic with slower leveling and harder content alongside some of the SoD stuff (particularly leveling raids, accompanying items, and new crafted gear (and more crafted stuff)) to give those things more value without the phases.