Here’s the sprawling city I was telling you about

Here’s the sprawling city I was telling you about

sprawling city, home

This problem really kills me with these games. It’s pretty egregious in Skyrim but most open worlds struggle with this. Are there any that actually handle scale effectively?
In Morrowind it never bothered me because I just told myself Vvardenfell was a sparsely populated volcanic hellhole. Unfortunately this means I cannot enjoy Tamriel Rebuilt.

Todd really cucked Skyrim

this is the grave you chose

unfortunately "good" and "smaller" are on the same slider

Not my problem

What quality landmarks and activities did Skyrim add that Daggerfall cities lacked?

what do you even need more than one house for

That's not how I remember Vivec

the issues is content. you can go the Witcher 3 route, where cities are huge and filled with people, but buildings are just facades and 90% of the people cannot be interacted with. or you can go the skyrim route, where cities are small, but you can go in every house and touch everything.

The problem with scale is movement speed. Walk around your house and time how long that takes. Now imagine that your giant city has a hundred of those houses and you need to walk by all of them, then through uninhabited area at least as long as the city to another 100 house city, do a bunch of stuff, then return the way you came, get interrupted by events or bandits... It takes forever and most people are not that patient. You can either make your character run at 60mph or add fast travel, but each has its own drawbacks. Cyberpunk has an actually at-scale fleshed out city with some surroundings and people complain all the time that you can't enter every building.

Im of the opinion that Cyrodiil should never have been shown. The idea of a massive sprawling imperial city which spans multiple islands is much more powerful than what was shown.

bethshill strokin out love to see it

Are there any that actually handle scale effectively?

You can't make an open world to scale. We currently have maps in the 5-10km2 and they are akready a chore to cross, imagine if they were 50-1000 times larger.
If you want proper scale you need "scene" maps, slices of city where events happen. You cross the space inbetween through a loading screen.

how did you remember Vivec, anon?

hey fromtard, elden ring obviously doesn't fit in to this as there are no npcs living a simulated day to day routine you could roleplay as being a part of. Imagine thinking of Rpg cities and a fucking fromsoft game comes to your mind.

good sidequests, nigger

Elden shitter brings up his empty background nothing city

Fromdrones are a blight

was mostly just a background. very little interactivity

It can't be that hard to make a few hundred interiors, especially with like 10 developers
I bet me and a group of my modding friends could do it in a weekend

A lot bigger, colossal even. From this angle and lack of fog it just looks so small. Also what I thought was a mod settlement looks to be Ebonheart, right there, a stone's throw from St. Delyn. Trippy.

blight

Fromsoft lives rent free in your head

Without the obviously modded open canton between the foreign quarter and the ascadian countryside

I love Morrowind but are we really going to compare Vivec to anything else. It's five copy pasted Cantons and there's no one outside, it's a big fucking "city" of loading screens to different cells.

Are there any that actually handle scale effectively?

literally the only way you could accomplish this is through procgen, but bethesda will never try procgen again after starfield's failure

guy whose only seen boss baby watching his second movie be like

Oh? Whats your favorite radiant quest in Whiterun?

the virign bethesda design team

the chad morrowind mod project

Starfield failed because it couldn't even reach feature parity with launch NMS lmao
Imagine having a spaceship and not being allowed to fly it around a planet because Bethesda doesn't know how to make videogames

Lets not pretend that if Bethesda did this you fags would just switch gears to "ugh why so much copy paste, random generated content" like you do with dungeons.

But you can fly your ship around planets in Starfield you retard. You can even fly between planets. Not sure but may even be able to fly between galaxies.
It would just take a very long time to do so.

this is either really good bait you are are truly a braindead fromdrone

You're getting shit on but you're right. From levels have great design, smooth and realistic transitions, sprawl, etc. They feel big and every little bit feels like it matters and belongs there.

Either end up with a giant city with too much stuff to talk to for the autistic person who likes to talk to every NPC, or filled with 90% un interact with NPC‘s.

Maybe if AI tech gets to the point where it can be used in games, and you can have a sprawling bustling city, where all the NPC have at least something they can do, even if it’s mundane.

Beth fags will look you in the eye and tell you this, oblivion and even starfield is acceptable because you can stack buckets.
Yeah really good trade off. I just to enjoy the shitty city so .01% player can' some silly shit once

I think context and speed of gameplay matters a lot.
It works for kcd. Almost every town feels about right

Novigrad has enough to do for you to get sick of it twice over.

You can interact with more buildings in Novigrad than any city in Skyrim so your point is moot

you cant go orbit to surface. not even a shitty animation.
it sucked.

Such as

it's not empty, it's just that the remaining inhabitants are hostile to you

Ah just like detroit

I don't know why the kids are hating your post. I never played any of the souls games or else ring etc. but I think you make a good point

most of the buildings are just decoration with maybe a single chest that contains randomized alchemy ingredients that make 0 sense for a peasant house to have and the guards don't even care you're robbing them in clear daylight

Lets not even begin to compare the Witcher 3 houses have even 1/10th the attention paid to them as Skyrim houses

I was actually stupid enough to think ER had real cities and NPCs because a bunch of previews came out talking about "cities" in the game. It's wild how Fromdrones pretend From makes good RPGs despite the complete lack of actual cities.

those 3 huts could arguably house 50 people

i can see a comfy cave there, that's another 50

It's never been easier. I'm using unreal 5 and almost done. City has over 500 buildings each with their own unique textures. Using a pcg dungeon approach and every single building will have an interior when finished. Has taken me 2 years on and off because I was just beginning to learn how.

I like the way Gran Soren feels in Dragon's Dogma. You can't go into a lot of buildings, but that makes sense because why would every door be unlocked? The rest of the world really lacked settlements, but I did like how GS was set up. It had lots of working class houses and shops, a little market center, some fields, the slums and sewers, and then the nobel/richfag district. I'd say DD2 did city scale well but fuck DD2.

it's an ARPG and a very good one at that, the genre doesn't need huge casts of NPC's
it never pretends it has, and no game reviewers being idiots doesn't change that

FromSoft advertised very well what Elden Ring was and delivered on their promises

That isn’t randomly generated

who cares? even as set dressing its miles better than a couple buildings in the middle of nowhere

Only semi-related but how did you get started learning to do procgen in UE5? I want to use it for my first game to make procgen dungeons.

I hope TW4 will have a city at least as big and vibrant, if not even bigger

it's an ARPG

And? That doesn't mean the world design can completely lack any real settlements.

and a very good one at that

No, it sucks.

FromSoft advertised very well what Elden Ring was and delivered on their promises

Fromsoft talked about how ER was going to be their first big, full RPG with more focus on the RPG stuff. It's a shitty action game with the tiniest bit of RPG mechanics in the form of leveling.

TW4 will most likely be soulless so who cares

people who like TES games over TW games care, part of what people want and expect is an extreme degree of interactivity in TES games
Same way TES fans wouldn't be happy about being forced into a single preset protagonist with an incredibly limited degree of customization both in looks and gameplay, but TW fans go "who cares" about that

how ER was going to be their first big, full RPG with more focus on the RPG stuff

No they never said that, they said ER was going to be a big world, and they did create a world that is much larger than anything they made before

Anon Babble bitches and moans about it but Cyberpunk has the best city ever in a video game

looked and felt massive ingame

you see this and realize its barely 1/5th the size of central old town in any european city

Wonder what Novigrad looks like in that setting's 21st century equivalent

tes fans must hate skyrim then. it was already giving up the ghost of immsim by oblivion after all

i'd love a fantasy RPG that is pretty much just set in one big city

It is an undeniable milestone of videogame city design but the NPCs are so sparse and robotic it never quite captures the same illusion of a huge lively metropolis that Novigrad did
In fairness I suppose it's easier to do that with a small-ish medieval town than with a huge sci-fi megacity

They're a conjugate. One cannot exist without the other.

I will take it as a conceit of good game design that really, """cities""" shouldn't be much bigger if you want to maintain a fun to time played ratio at any sane level. Its gotta be a doll house, at the end of the day. Novigrad FEELS large, and has a lot of things to do and interact with. Its my gold standard for this.

Save for maybe like, GTA. But their focus is the city and its more of a sandbox and the entire point of their game so its not quite comparable in the right way.

You might be thinking of Morrowind.

Same
TW3 felt like it wanted to do much more with Novigrad but a lot of it had to be scrapped
Medieval fantasy GTA would be fun

it's the one thing the game does well honestly, just walking around is great

shame the setting ruins it because the GTA ads are fucking annoying after one playthrough

which people shitting themselves over the oblivion remaster, you can bet the future looks fucking grim. Both starfield and skyrim were better than oblivion but since normalfags eat it up anyway no reason to put in any more effort.

You can blame consoles for this. It's probably not as big of a deal these days, but for a long time games would get unbelievably cucked in scale because every publisher wanted to be able to launch on consoles and PC. New Vegas is a tragic example of this. Designed for pc only, they got like 3/4 of the way through making the game before they were told to make it work on consoles and had to cut way back on the scale of the settlements

starfield was not better than oblivion lol

bajillion quests

I started by watching pcg graph introduction tutorials for outdoor stuff like trees.

But this is the interior dungeon generation. It doesn't use pcg graph.

youtu.be/4ddbnQIuwAM?si=xVwJre3zsp9I3nzP

Skyrim does some things better than Oblivion and some things worse
Better dungeons, worse quests for instance

Blame everyone but not my precious todd

NTA but good procgen will always use homebrew 'proc' to feed into engine 'gen'. You shouldn't use stock functions for this because the quirks are easy tells. I don't know if UE5 has stock functions for this or anything about making videogames really, but this sounds about right to me.

Cities who atleast look like cities even if you can enter 1/20 of every building are so much better

Yes. Your Youtuber tab uses more memory than the 360 did for games.

2 words: GTA San Andreas

/Thread

To think they made San Andreas in two years.

Cities who atleast look like cities even if you can enter 1/20 of every building are so much better

i feel like this shouldn't even apply to TES games because the interiors are separate cells.

Really? So what's their explanation for their tiny "cities"

TES fans will talk shit about Skyrim at every opportunity like it offered nothing to the overall series.

I imagine it's probably just having too much in a dense space, too many NPCs.

the xbox360 had only 512MB of RAM :^)

they could easily have gone for the full gig without it increasing costs much but corpos gonna corpo and pennies must be pinched, even if it's a comical misstep

They want every NPC to be handcrafted and have a story and unique dialogue and a house you can break into
Can't do that in a huge city with hundreds or thousands of NPCs

Okay yk fallout 4 and starfield also exist

And 256 of the RAM was reserved for the OS.

the xbox360 had only 512MB of RAM :^)

in hindsight that is crazy

You need to suspend your disbelief when thinking about scale in any video game. Just keep it in the back of your mind that in-lore or in-universe, these Worlds would be 10x larger just like places IRL. But video game limitations call for restrictions for a playable product.

Now, there are ways to trick the players to think some games have larger scale than they really do. For example, Monster Hunter. In older Monster Hunter games, before World. Locations in maps where divided in zones that where separated by loading screens, so these zones felt like they where further away than they actually where. They gave the map the illusion of scale and you only explore part of it. World and especially Wilds, basically connected all of the zones and the end result was a sever reduction in scale.

Bethesda could theoretically increase the scale again. They already did in Daggerfall. But this would come at the cost of detail, the same detail that became the focus in Oblivion and Skyrim. NPCs would become static again like Morrowind. The shitty proc-gen everyone hated from Starfield would become the norm. Stuff would feel "samey".

to be honest they dont even really need to be huge, I'd say twice the size of whiterun/solitude would be perfect for those kinds of games
obviously the 360 couldn't run that though

they just can't even create the illusion okay, they just can't. They can only make shitty small towns with 6 houses.

good games have the scale shown in the backdrop while the areas you explore are just a small portion. this open world meme needs to die, it just doesn't feel immersive at all. never has and it never will

This

Other Devs can do it why can't they?
Stop making excuses for Bethesda.
They haven't made any good game since Skyrim.

In 2005 when it launched, yeah, by 2010 it was nothing but a burden.

this has to be bait

Other Devs can do it why can't they?

Who?

Love me some shanty towns

I really like ER for a bunch of other reasons but most other souls games (especially DS3) do the city thing better simply because you see but cannot touch. You're only able to go where you're supposed to go but you know by overlooks in area like high wall of Lothric that the city is WAY bigger than what you're actually exploring. I like ER a lot but when you zoom out even a little you realize how tiny Leyendell really is.

No they never said that,

He repeatedly talked about getting closer to a perfect RPG and talked about all the new themes and story ideas and creative worldbuilding and drama. It's literally the same shit they've been doing for 15 years except instead of a fire, it's a broken ring and instead of old kings, it's old demi-gods.

I can name some but you'll say "but you can't stack 200 cups" like it fucking matters outside of shit posting

but buildings are just facades and 90% of the people cannot be interacted with

you mean like a real city?

Arenanet with gw2 if you want an example from that era
At least make the city *feel* big even if you can't reach the upper levels
Anythings better than 5 houses amd a barn

Thats a dungeon, anon.

Other Devs can do it why can't they?

Literally who? Who is making open world, free-form RPGs with realistically sized cities? I'm sorry but the answer is fucking nobody. Even if you dislike what it is Bethesda produces, nobody is making anything like what they've been doing since Morrowind. Nobody has even tried.

what did he mean by this

You are a retard faggot who's making shit up

Miyazaki told me in my sleep er will have bustling towns and radiant ai

damn almost 10% of the buildings are taverns

I've come across that video before but the thumbnail always made it look like the final product would be very cookie cutter template made of all squares and hallways and right angles on a flat plain. By the end of the videos, did you have the tools to add more "randomness" to things? Both in terms of overall layout and individual rooms?

Just go ahead and name them, stop being a bitch.
Are you seriously comparing an MMORPG to a single-player game?

Kcd exists.
Also other open world haves have big cities with many enterable building.
Even ubisoft games with no loading screens

Yes I am comparing an rpg to an rpg retard

Or you could just accept the fact that back in the day (which is what a lot of fantasy is based on) we weren't overpopulated with brown people and a major city center didn't need to look like modern cities do.

all these excuses

When starfield is thing

Pure cope.
It's sheer incompetence

Invisible walls are shit and open world has been a thing in games longer than you've been playing them. The wave of underage third worlders bitching about open worlds like Ubisoft invented them in 2012 is the worst thing to happen to this board.

This kills the cardboard spook

Are you really going to be this much of a disingenuous faggot?

Despite living in a city of millions of people, if you try to interact with most of them you'll get a blank stare or get blown off or go through an extremely simple dialog tree.

Excuse me.

Yes?

I'm looking for Lan Di. Have you seen a black car?

A black car? No, sorry, I don't know anything about it.

Thank you.

Go out and try it. You'll see. There's so little actual interactivity in a city.

who's making shit up

I'm not. He did say this stuff

getting closer to a perfect RPG and talked about all the new themes and story ideas and creative worldbuilding and drama

but he didn't say whatever strawman words you're trying to put into my mouth. He made it sound like it was going to be a real RPG. It's not. It's a shitty action game with some lite RPG elements.

video games suck at creating sprawling cities because usually the purpose of them being part of the game doesn't extend beyond "talk to quest npc here, shop there", unless the whole setting of the game is literally a city.

to be honest, i have felt recently like we live in some kind of distorted reality/illusion

all the other games a invalid because you can't enter in every single room

And if you can like in ac unity. There's no soulful chest there placed by todd Howard himself

There's mods that populates all the cities and towns and adds more people you fucking idiots.

So how do you guys feel about non interactuable buildings vs just decorative buildings? Ive never encountered someone interested in entering every house or building in a big city, seems like something devs tell but i think most people would be fine with cities like in the Witcher saga

Again with

Not my precious Bethesda, just download more mods

A lot of buildings should be locked because why the fuck would everyone leave their house unlocked? Some should be locked, some should have nothing of interest in them. Some should have stuff that ties to quests or unique items.

i'm too stupid to know how to mod my game

It's just what large population centers do to people. Smaller towns are much better for your soul, way more authentic.

You can't enter every building in AC Unity, the hell are you smoking?

I'll admit KCD is one of the closest things to a Bethesda game that exists but it still gives you a character with a face, backstory, motivations, etc. It's not a RPG any more than The Witcher is. It just doesn't give the same feeling of being able to do whatever you want and actually make a character. CP77 has the same problem, though I think it actually gets closer to scratching the itch than KCD does since you can at least look different and make difference builds. Henry will always be Henry just as much as Geralt is Geralt.
He may be a slightly different shade of Henry but your choices are motivated by one of two things:

what the player wants to do

not roleplaying

what the player thinks henry would do

everyone may have different perceptions of this, but it still means everyone is playing the same RPG character and lack agency, unable to decide "what would MY character do"

People where saying the same shit about linear JRPGs back in the day. They have a gorgeous background that you can't interact with at all and a giant overworld that you can only explore as a chibi and get into random encounters. But people wanted to explore that open world, and thus the Open World genre.

What's shitty are lazy open worlds slapped on genres or existing franchises that don't need to be open. Like any derivative of the Ubishit formula, or what Final Fantasy became. RPGs designed as linear games with added "Open World" levels that just result in fluff and empty space. A big reason why I thought Witcher 2 > 3, was because both are obviously linear games but 3 had a big empty open world that just ruins the pacing.

You are a retarded ESL. Adding more NPCs doesn't make a city bigger and more believable dumbfuck. God I wish indians would just disappear, you're so fucking annoying and you have way too much confidence despite never understanding the subject of the thread.

Of course there would be no point of every building being enterable. No gameplay purpose at all.
You need the major building, some minor, some small rooms and few etc hidden ones just for fun basically no more than 45% is really necessary

Depends on the game. It's fine in The Witcher 3 because you play as Geralt the Witcher. In a game like Skyrim though, where you can be a thief, every building needs to be enterable to sell the fantasy,

It's not a RPG any more than The Witcher is.

RPG doesn't mean blank slate non-talking character and it never has and never will. KCD is absolutely an RPG, and a better one than Bethesda has ever made.

You are the retard not the hacks at Bethesda

You enter fuck ton of builds in that game. Except a few.

RPG stuff is irrelevant here it's about making believable and interactive cities

Are there any that actually handle scale effectively?

99% of gamers evidently do not want this as evidenced by the fact that by default in most games your character moves at a light jog speed and many games don't even let you walk at a normal pace at all.

The Witcher 3's open-world housed a lot of great quests. Cannot imagine preferring W2 over W3.

Yes but it's more for me using that right angle room generation to learn. If you wanted different tunnels or something more organic you can apply the basic stuff from this to that. If that makes any sense. The important basics are covered there and it's a solid foundation for interiors. You can make a room that has open ceiling and doves fly when you walk into it and just add it to the rooms list. I know that the rooms look rough and geometrically confined in the tutorial. But theoretically everything has 4 sides or less that are entrances. There is a part 2 of the video with different floors up and down.

You enter fuck ton of builds in that game. Except a few.

You are really overestimating how many open buildings there are in Unity. And you just run through them whilst parkouring. None of them are unique and what little loot they have are always stored in a lock chest.

Also you can have a pcg graph for each room to fill it with props etc

It's been a while but i do remember really bustling cities full of NPCs (you can push) and many buildings your can Parkour through.

Not unique

That's not the point, You can do it by spending more man hours.
It just proves it is very much possible technically but Bethesda can't or refuses to do it

retard

If you wanted different tunnels or something more organic you can apply the basic stuff from this to that. If that makes any sense.

It does and that's what I wanted to know. Thanks, I'll watch the videos.

better one than CDPR ever made as well

Those NPCs are literally just a sea of copy-pasted models and recolours that act like retards who's very presence destroys the assassin fantasy.
Comparing an AC city to a TES city is beyond stupid. If AC cities were filled with TES NPCs then the game would crash on load in.

all this rpg talk

How about we keep it to creating cities that are interactable and feel big.

I was just saying what's do able and you know Bethesda can do better.
Also NPCs add dogshit in starfield? What's the excuse there?

every generation of TES insists that their particular game was peak

People who complain about a majority of the buildings and NPC's in Novigrad (Witcher 3) not being interactable are actually mentally retarded.
See and Most people are going to lock their doors, not let you in, and have no interest in talking to you.

There is absolutely no reason why other games can't do the same, simply create a larger world map, increase the size of the cities, and importantly: Add farmland surrounding the city.

Yeah tes6 can be dogshit like starfield and faggots here will still defend it
Calling it soulful and charming

But what about sailors though?

The Witcher 3 does it properly assassins creed Unity also

No, you are a retard. Different games have different priorities. TES is also about interactivity and immersion, not the smoke and mirrors shit AC does

But what about Starfield

The game was shit, I don't think NPCs even had radiant AI for proper schedules. There's a reason it's Bethesda worst received game in two decades

They act like avg gamer will go bananas and. His experience will be ruined if half the building in a massive city aren't enterable and full of unique loot

Unity has one of the best video game maps

I would've thought that the overwhelmingly positive reception of Novigrad by the vast majority of anyone who has ever played TW3 would be proof enough to all developers that creating large cities with a majority of its buildings being non-interactable is the way to go moving forward.

All video games are smokes and mirror and having few more buildings while some of them being inaccessible will probably add to the immersion.

Also you do agree that modern Bethesda sucks ass

It's just makes sense you can't enter each building, Unless they are some public establishment.

Every building needs to be fully accessible

Is a bad design principle.

Yes but that's not a high bar.

Again, different priorities. This shit would not work for TES because of interactive of the games. No one wants run up to each and every door just to find out if it's enterable or not. Imagine playing a thief and you spend more time looking for enterable houses than stealing, shit would be boring as fuck.

Also you do agree that modern Bethesda sucks ass

Considering they're track record in the past decade was ONE, FUCKING ONE, mediocre game, I'd to say yes. Though I will readily admit to still having some faith in them, solely for the fact that there are zero alternatives to Bethesda games.

RPG doesn't mean blank slate non-talking character

If KCD is a RPG then so is the Witcher, GTA, Far Cry, Metro, DS1, Elden Ring, some CoD games and any other video game with even a single choice to make. What matters to determine whether or not something is a RPG is only your ability to create a unique character and have that character make choices based on who and what they are. The closer to a real TTRPG a video game is, the more definitely it is a RPG and vice versa. If you can't even fill in your character's name then forget about it.

TES is also about interactivity

No it is not. There are very few interactive mechanics. TES games are all about quantity in terms of size, words NPCs spit out and nothing else.

It's not that hard to distinguish enterable buildings from non enterable ones. Almost every games does that. Even max payne one.

One game

Fallout 4 and 76

:(

it's an ARPG and a very good one at that

AHAHAHAHAHA

agreed, balmora feels more like a city than vivec

So torment isn't rpg because he's definitely not blank.
Also kcd is more rpg than most jrpgs

There's no universal design philosophy for videogames. Different companies make different styles of RPGs: what's really retarded is being incapable of accepting that. Some people want detailed cities with each NPC being unique, with schedules, dialogue, etc, and others want breadth, with realistic numbers of buildings and sprawl.
It's a tradeoff, depth vs breadth, and each adds to immersion. The difference comes in which part you feel is more important to prioritize.

Witcher, DS1, and ER are RPGs. They're about character building and choice. No, being a blank slate isn't the only way to do that. A lot of shallow surface level options and a couple premade branching paths or checklist guild quests is not meaningful choice.

What matters to determine whether or not something is a RPG is only your ability to create a unique character

Objectively wrong. It's about character building and interactivity/reactivity and player agency. You can play a play a tabletop game module with a set character as a starting point and still have plenty of choice. The only people who think RPG means blank slate created characters are retards who doesn't understand the genre on any level.

like it offered nothing to the overall series

it didn't

Yes, it is. If you see something in the world that you think you can interact with, you can most of the time. It's not some hardcore simulation kind of interaction or anything, but it's interactive nonetheless.
How would discern between real buildings and useless props if Skyrim looked like this?
youtube.com/watch?v=DrnMACWp18M

Fallout 4, F76

Yeah, they put out FO4 a decade ago and F76 was made by another dev and Bethesda provided support.

Is what a contrarian would say

Yeah trade offs ads bad in Bethesda games. They can definitely do better.
And their city design philosophy is shit.

You can play any game over and over until you learn to love every aspect of it.

90% of the buildings in daggerfall are empty and/or the same layout

If you see something in the world that you think you can interact with

Only if your definition of interact is "talk to a person or knock over an object". I played the Oblivion remaster for a bit. I tried doing a stealth build. The game gave me a tutorial about staying out of site, and in the next room there was a goblin and there were some torches around. I tried to sneak over to the torch and put it out so that I could get closer without being seen. I couldn't interact with the torch. That's just one example, but that's how their games work. There is no interaction besides talking to exposition dump NPCs or knocking over some objects.

while some of them being inaccessible

That's the problem. Having it be arbitrary which buildings are accessible and which aren't breaks the illusion.

bad design principle

That's your subjective opinion. Bethesda games aim for a very specific type of experience which is only possible with the restrictions you dislike. It's fine that you don't appreciate that: there's plenty of other games out there that go for breadth over depth, your tastes are in the majority. Quit calling for everything to conform to what you want.

there are very few interactive mechanics

Obvious how you haven't played any, then.

nothing about calling three huts a full fledged town is adding depth or immersion.

These is this thing called design theory.
All games use that
Where you make the different kinds of doors for different purposes.
Ones that can be broken
Ones that can be picked
Ones that are just there.

It's not impossible.

Todd is exactly who I'm blaming, really

I don't think I've seen any game handle the illusion of a large city better than Elden Ring did

Just buildings at random with 0 logistic

Can we please kill all the roll sloppers at once?

Obvious how you haven't played any, then.

see
I've played through Morrowind and Skyrim and they have fuck all for interactivity. Please explain what interactivity they have. And for the love of god, don't be the fag that brings up the basket on the head thing like that's indicative of how the game works as a whole.

SHIT FOR WHAT? BY WHAT VALUES ARE YOU JUDGING IT SHIT BY?
This line of thought is as retarded as saying that Halo is shit because there's no romance, or that Angry Birds is shit because there's no 4X elements

Having it be arbitrary which buildings

It's not that hard to distinguish them.
Most game do it. It's called good art and design.

Blue doors are rigid but you can use the red ones

Is the most common example.

Quit calling for everything to conform to what you want.

You love for todd definitely outshine any hate i have towards all the uppity hacks at Bethesda

So every other house will have white door or lamp next to let you know that's enterable? Yeah, as if that wouldn't look retarded as shit.

sovl

Biggest city in entire region

7 Fucking huts

Not a problem

Yeah dude totally I am in the wrong.
Not your precious todd

They have been getting better with interactivity in each game. Skyrim for instance, let's remove torches that are seated in a holder, but not the ones that are nailed to walls. Obviously they could be better, but the worlds are interactive.

You are a fucking retard. There are many ways to implement it without making it obvious.
If done right
In no time you'll know subconsciously which ones are and which ones aren't.

but the worlds are interactive.

The worlds are less interactive than games a decade older than them. TES games are about scale and quantity, not interactivity.

pretty good job; here is my (you)

I'm sure there was lots to do in Daggerfall towns.

Yeah you can do a lot starfield

That's an exaggeration, in the first place. Immersion is in the fact that the people in those 7-15 building settlements all have unique schedules and details. The noble child in Morthal has the Lusty Argonian Maid under his bed. The Romeo and Juliet lovers in Whiterun. The Countess of Bravil does a monthly trip to Chorrol, etc.
The fact that every object can be picked up and interacted with is sufficient to say that they're interactive, disregarding the many other systems around disposition, crime, reputation, etc. All those things which other more linear RPGs have absolutely nothing for.
This isn't about distinguishing. It's about deciding what gets attention and development. It sounds like what you want is for only the most pertinent and significant figures to be given detail. Only the Jarl of Whiterun, the guilds, and the noble families, that sort of thing. The problem is that any sort of picking and choosing goes against the core appeal, that settlements, limited as they are, feel like ecosystems and not delivery methods for content.

I'd bet money this person probably spent weeks endlessly complaining about the yellow paint trend.

I am completely unfazed and unbothered by cities being designed as points of interest rather than trying to match realistic scale.

Well then give me an example that would look natural and not yellow paint tiers of stupid.
Yes, smaller games a decade ago had better interactivity. Doesn't change the fact that the worlds are interactive. You can compare Skyrim to other titles that released in 2011 and I doubt you'll find one that's as large as Skyrim and with the same amount of interactivity.

Says who? You? You decided one day that that's what they're about? Every half word out of Todd and other Bethesda designers' mouths is about detail, "the small details".
You obviously don't care about the small details. That's been established. You're just a retard who literally cannot build a model in your mind of people who would think differently.

The shitty proc-gen everyone hated from Starfield would become the norm.

Part of the problem here is that they only did procedural generation for the planet's surfaces. All actual locations and npcs were handcraft, just reused over and over. If going for a higher scale, they absolutely need more procedural generation.

The fact that every object can be picked up and interacted with is sufficient to say that they're interactive

Wrong. They don't do anything. They're just objects. You don't throw them to hit switches or use them as distractions or use massive objects to do damage to enemies. They are interactive by no metric.

Yes, smaller games a decade ago had better interactivity.

Right. Some games focus on interactivity. Some games focus on scale. TES games focus on scale, not interactivity.

You can compare Skyrim to other titles that released in 2011 and I doubt you'll find one that's as large as Skyrim and with the same amount of interactivity.

Dragon's Dogma came out all of half a year after Skyrim and while it's not quite as big, it has far, far more interactivity.

Good luck! The first part with the arrows is the most important part because after that tutorial you will probably want to make different sized rooms with multi floor access. The box collision for the dungeon generator is the most important thing.

Says who? You?

Says anyone who isn't a demented Bethesdrone. They lack interactivity. Even the people defending the interactivity right now are saying "Well okay, they don't have all these interactive mechanics that other smaller games have, but..." which very clearly means that they have scale but not interactivity. If other games have far more interactive mechanics and elements, then TES games aren't about interactivity. There's no metric by which you can pretend they're about interactivity unless you ignore the swaths of games that have more interactivity.

TES games focus on scale, not interactivity.

TES games focus on both.

Dragon's Dogma came out all of half a year after Skyrim and while it's not quite as big, it has far, far more interactivity.

In combat, sure, I'd argue with you there, but world interactivity, not a chance.

An acceptable large city would be big enough to be the entire game itself

TES games focus on both.

Wrong. They're a decade behind other games in terms of interactivity and they'll never come close to immsim level. Those games focus on interactivity, TES games do not.

but world interactivity, not a chanc

I can grab a harpy and use it to physicall fly across a poison swamp. If I have a bigger, heavier character they'll be affected by strong wind less. If I have a physically smaller character, their lantern will go out in shallow water and they can fit through small holes. Show me anything like that in a TES game. Show me the "world interactivity" they have at all.

TES games focus on scale

Any source to back that up? You are saying that they focus on scale, not interactivity, while you're complaining about them not focusing on scale.
Interactivity IS being able to go into any building and steal any object, being able to talk to any NPC and have them be a character, going anywhere you want. By any metric interactivity would be, you know, how much you're able to interact with the thing, the world itself? You're too focused on the retard action-brained view of things, you're not looking at it as an RPG informed by its relationship to tabletop role-playing games.
Because you're a retard and comparing cross-genres, saying the equivalent of "DOOM focuses on action where TES focuses on stats". This is obviously true in a direct comparison, but dumb if the point of the comparison is to describe something about TES accurately. When you compare Bethesda games to, you know, other similar RPGs, you find then that of course they're more focused on interactivity versus scale.

whops wrong pic sorry

Because they're imsims, not RPGs, you mongoloid. TES games are very interactive for RPGs. It's just a banal observation. No RPG will ever have as good action gameplay as a game that focuses on action, no RPG will ever have as good immersive sim gameplay as an immersive sim? Is that seriously what you mean to say?

If you kill Hulda Ysolda replaces her. Your race affects your stealth ability in the Thalmor Embassy; being a beastrace gets you noticed immediately. Guards respond dynamically, calling you out for faction membership.
In Dragon's Dogma, how many questlines separate from the main game are there? How many settlements? How many unique NPCs with schedules that you can talk to? How many dungeons are there? How many unique artifacts can you find. What's the lore and background story like? What's the level of immersion, how's the soundtrack, the background noise, the verisimilitude? How many books can you pick up and read?

has anyone else noticed that there's not a single bathroom in Oblivion?

Where the fuck to people in Tamriel take a shit? No seriously, what is the sanitation situation in cyrodiil?

How fucking stupid do you have to be to pretend that TES games don't focus on scale? That's not a rhetorical question, I actually want to know how impossibly fucking stupid you need to be to pretend that these are just subjective ideas and the devs definitely don't do that because they never said they do that explicitly (even though they have).

while you're complaining about them not focusing on scale.

What kind of ESL babble is this?

Interactivity IS being able to go into any building and steal any object

Cool so if I load up a TES game, walk into a building and there are items I can't steal, what's your excuse?

Respond to the explicit examples I gave for Dragon's Dogma, another open world RPG that came out within half a year of Skyrim, or kill yourself you demented Bethesdrone. No hypotheticals or vague blanket statements. Respond to those examples explicitly.

saarodiil

didn’t notice the buckets by the bed

Underage

while you're (you are) complaining about them not focusing on scale

Perfectly legible. You're obviously the ESL here, projecting. Write "I curse Ganesh" for all of us, please.
I'll grant you that 0.1% of the total items in a given bethesda world may be unable to be stolen, but you'd have to be acting in outrageous bad faith to fixate on that.

SOVL

Wrong. They're a decade behind other games in terms of interactivity and they'll never come close to immsim level. Those games focus on interactivity, TES games do not.

If they're so behind then why are there zero fucking alternative to TES games? Surely the best selling RPG of all time would have at least one or two alternatives? Every single popular game or genre gets a sea of alternatives, except TES, why? It should be easy to replicate the formula if they're so behind everyone else.

I can grab a harpy and use it to physicall fly across a poison swamp. If I have a bigger, heavier character they'll be affected by strong wind less. If I have a physically smaller character, their lantern will go out in shallow water and they can fit through small holes. Show me anything like that in a TES game. Show me the "world interactivity" they have at all.

All of those are either restricted to combat or set pieces used in a specific location. You don't walk out of Gran Soren and have a chance for the wind to pick up your character during a storm or anything. In TES you can set off enemies own traps against, lure opposing factions nearby to fight each other, break into people's homes and steal items, kill enemies with props, etc. In short, Dragon's Dogma interactivity outside of combat are restricted to specific, hand-crafted instances and Skyrim's interactivity persists through the entire game's world.

Perfectly legible

And completely incomprehensible because I've never at any point complained about them not focusing on scale. Can you read and understand English at all? And could you explain to me why ESL subhumans try to call everyone Indian when they get called out for being illiterate monkeys?

I'll grant you that 0.1% of the total items in a given bethesda world may be unable to be stolen

How about the fact that not every object in the game counts as an interactive item and there are plenty of things around the world that can't be stolen or interacted with at all despite you saying

Interactivity IS being able to go into any building and steal any object

steal any object

You said that. Now try not to backpedal.

Lol, I just noticed "physicall fly". You will never be American, faggot. Write "I hate Allah and Mohammed is not his Prophet" for us, please.
There is no grabbing harpies or wind systems in Bethesda games, so obviously no? I responded by giving examples of world interactivity from Skyrim alone. DD and TES are two different series that focus on different things. We can compare their level of depth in their respective areas of focus. I understand on the subcontinent you guys operate on tropical time, processing things can be time-consuming. But please stop taking these cognitive shortcuts.

Underrated

The toilet witch dlc was beyond redeemable

If they're so behind then why are there zero fucking alternative to TES games?

KCD was a similar type of game and shit all over anything Bethesda has ever made.

but it's popular!

You're too stupid to keep arguing with.

All of those are either restricted to combat or set pieces used in a specific location.

Wrong. You haven't played DD. You're making vague blanket statements to avoid talking about mechanics. And the harpy flying, goblin wholes, wind pushing, and torches going out aren't combat mechanics. They're exploration mechanics.

In short, Dragon's Dogma interactivity outside of combat are restricted to specific, hand-crafted instances

Grabbing a harpy to fly works anywhere there's a harpy. Moving barrels around to throw at enemies or to stack to climb on works anywhere. The windswept valley being in one place doesn't mean all the mechanics I listed are specific set instances. You're a liar and a retarded faggot.

You are the same person in this thread complaining about their cities not having enough decorative non-interactive buildings.
Take a break from burping cum to cover your tracks better, Rajpreet.

Calm down Todd

Lol, I just noticed "physicall fly". You will never be American, faggot.

That's called a typo. Actual native English speakers can tell the difference between those and real language comprehension issues. You'd know that if you were a native English speaker, which you're not. I'm not and not a street shitter or a goat fucker, but you're definitely some flavor of third worlder.

There is no grabbing harpies or wind systems in Bethesda games, so obviously no?

How about some other system to physically interact with enemies or NPCs? Can you pick up NPCs and move them around? Can you interact with them at all outside of attacking them?

We can compare their level of depth in their respective areas of focus.

There's no comparison.

(You)

You are the same person in this thread complaining about their cities not having enough decorative non-interactive buildings.

Objectively wrong, you stupid illiterate monkey. Go to a website that uses your native language and leave this one.

Okay everyone take a breath

Not wrong, people are only giving you shit because it isn't filled with braindead NPCs with copy-pasted dialogue

KCD was obviously not a similar type of game. If you'd played either you'd have known. KCD lacks many of the fundamental qualities that distinguish Bethesda games from slop. People who say it's "shit all over anything Bethesda has ever made" are just people who never liked Bethesda games in the first place, autistic faggots who were kept in cages their entire childhoods.
I'm sorry that Age of Bharat is gonna flop.
Remember to take the buttplug out every once in a while. Be careful not to swallow it.

KCD was obviously not a similar type of game. If you'd played either you'd have known. KCD lacks many of the fundamental qualities that distinguish Bethesda games from slop.

I actually laughed out loud reading this.

You're either with the Bethesdrones or against them.

This scares Todd

The person you're responding to is and they've been doing this "cannot understand the argument due to a massive language barrier" bullshit in multiple threads today. I'm surprised he hasn't called you pedro at this point. I swear indians are so fucking annoying, he's probably using google translate to communicate with us.

retard fromnigger stfu

The person you're responding to is

I'm not. Why are Bethesdrones so fucking stupid?

Whoops, meant to say is the illiterate jeet shitting up all of the threads on Anon Babble today.

Morrowind is just the perfect sweet spot IMO. No spoken dialogue greatly increases the ability to scale up whilst maintaining detail, same with the limited artstyle. Shame it can't do schedules and radiant AI.

they hated this one, boss

The geography of North America primes you to appreciate non-linearity, exploration, and immersion. It's literally the heritage of Western Civilization, freedom crystallized.
When you've lived in a Bengaluru hovel your entire life, having never seen pristine untainted wilderness, accustomed to having no personal space or privacy, it's understandable how you'd then lash out at any suggestion that a higher form of life is possible.

Yes, you retard, the popularity is the main point. Every single fucking popular game gets alternatives. Souls games, battle royale, extraction shooters, ubisoft style open-worlds, survival crafters, hero shooters, MOBAs, etc, all of these have a bevy of alternatives. Yet Skyrim, the best selling RPG of all time, has zero alternatives, despite it being a "decade behind other games". Surely you're pea-sized brain should be able to notice how strange that is.

Wrong. You haven't played DD. You're making vague blanket statements to avoid talking about mechanics. And the harpy flying, goblin wholes, wind pushing, and torches going out aren't combat mechanics. They're exploration mechanics.

I have played DD, stop coping. You do not interact with harpies outside of combat, the wind does not push you outside of the one set piece where you're going to the tower to fight the griffin, the only real time torches go out is when you roll in water, which you'll only do in combat 90% of the time, with the only exception I remember being the waterfall you pass through to enter the water temple. The goblin hole is the only one that is actually an exploration mechanic.

Grabbing a harpy to fly works anywhere there's a harpy. Moving barrels around to throw at enemies or to stack to climb on works anywhere. The windswept valley being in one place doesn't mean all the mechanics I listed are specific set instances. You're a liar and a retarded faggot.

Flying with harpies is fucking useless in the game, it's common use is in combat so you can drag them to the ground. You can stack up barrels sure, there's not one place in the game where you're rewarded for doing so from what i remember.

The windswept valley being in one place doesn't mean all the mechanics I listed are specific set instances

Outside of combat they most definitely are.

All the seething replies to this but not a single refutation

Really Makes You Think

Yes, you retard, the popularity is the main point.

I don't have a reaction image that appropriately shows how dumb you are.

from what i remember.

The problem is that you don't remember. Pretty much everything you've said when trying to talk specifics is wrong. Because again, you're an idiot.

Too bad the Witcher is one of the most boring games of all time.

Unironically the quests in Daggerfall are better and better written as contained quests than anything in Skyrim. The only real issue is that they repeat too readily but the quests themselves are all better. Stop being a retard

I disagree.

I don't have a reaction image that appropriately shows how dumb you are.

How exactly am I dumb for finding it strange that one of the most popular games of all time has zero alternatives or copy-cats? Go on, can't wait to see what random bullshit you pull out of your ass.

Pretty much everything you've said when trying to talk specifics is wrong.

Nah, I know I'm right. There is very little reason to fly with harpies in DD because the game doesn't have much in the way of verticality, and the only time you interact with harpies is in combat. You don't fly over any fucking swamps with them, because DD doesn't even have a fucking swamp zone. Nobody is stacking barrels because there is zero reason to stack to stack barrels. Nobody is rolling outside of combat in the water caves precisely because the torch goes out. The windswept valley is one linear set piece, wind is not an actual factor in the game. And to top it off, Skyrim's scope is far larger than DD's. So in conclusion, you are a coping retard.

the refutation is that the faggot is a blind gay little fromnigger drone

they absolutely should never have depicted it until they were certain the technology could accurately handle it

"Illusion of a large city" is apt. It's orders of magnitude less complex to build. All it takes is just a bunch of 3d modelers and a designer to put it all together.
You could say that for just about anything: the New Mombasa level of Halo 2 handled the illusion of a large city better than Elden Ring, and so on.
It's a categorical error: we're talking about RPG cities, not videogame levels. RPG cities obviously take a lot more effort, as they have a lot more going on.

That was my only post on Anon Babble today you retarded schizo.
I have been posting mostly on Anon Babble today, you can find my in /spg/, /tpg/, and also in the quirky one-off threads that I made.
You owe me an apology for insinuating that I'm an indian.
There is nothing I hate more than indians.

There is nothing I hate more than indians.

What about jews?

Playing through the remaster just reminds me of how fucking atrocious Bethesda's worldbuilding is despite how cool the lore seems on paper. I can almost excuse the tiny Imperial City due to hardware but the fact that the heartland of this gigantic continent-spanning fantasy empire is basically deserted and EVERY fort and fortress is crumbling ruin actually makes me angry. The whole of Cyrodiil feels like a backwater province. Fucking Vvardenfell had fully-staffed and well-maintained fortresses, castles and outposts all over the place so you're telling me an ACTUAL fucking backwater has more of an Imperial presence than the fucking home of the empire?

i actually have had a few jewish friends
they are great people as long as you keep them out of positions of power

This is something solved by just having more than four tilesets. Divide the forts and ruins by era: Alessian, Reman, Potentate, early/late Septim forts should all look different from one another, something that iirc TR is doing.