Is the heroes journey going to make a comeback or do peopIe still prefer subversion and milIenial writing...

Is the heroes journey going to make a comeback or do peopIe still prefer subversion and milIenial writing deconstruction?

If you're not behind 17 layers of irony, you're not worth paying attention to.

This but the opposite.

there's no shortage of games that play it straight. idk it seems like the only news feed you people follow is one that endlessly promotes/cherrypicks examples you are likely to hate.

It won’t return fully until we completely reject the faithless ideals current generations have embraced and sold their foundation on.

You pic-rel isn't the heros journey. It's Eat Pray Love. We are infested with female brained idiots that think they are trad-based.

Hero's journey will not return simply because it requires the coordination and execution of discrete steps, rather than being comprised of infinitely tiling slop.

Millennial writing

Nice cope, but this is caused by MBA consultants, who are mostly still older boomers or Gen X who are trying to pretend that they don't exist.

Stop seething at that stuff being called that way.
It's made for the millennial audience, it's what millenial are accustomed to and what they use to write their own shit because they now think that's how you write.

Newly discovered outlook, sure, but Gilgamesh ends up with a dead friend and a failed goal at the end of his journey.
Yeah. Something like Fallout is an outlier.

name one from the last 3 years

I hope so

Have you never played a JRPG before?

Then don't call it that.
Millennials are generally recognized as having the least purchasing power and influence and are currently between about 30-45 years old. They aren't the target audience for anything and they're not making creative decisions about anything in the greater industry.
Market forces alone dictate that millennial writing almost specifically caters to literally anyone who isn't a millennial.
The vast majority of so-called Millennial writing is produced by Gen X to target either other Gen X or Zoomers and Gen Alpha.
There's a reason that Millennial writing is just rubberstamped across large swathes of the industry like "comic book movies" and it's so that no one can point at the fact that everyone working on those properties with the control necessary to do anything was born in the 60s or 70s.

It's not going to come back, because there is too much media that already did it and that new generations will keep coming back to. Post-ironic writing is a natural consequence of searching for new frontiers of originality in an oversaturated artform.

thought so

The drop-in MP was so cool. I played the game last year and there were still enough players for it to work

I haven't

greek tragedies are subversive millennial writing

There's plenty of games like that!

no mention of a single one relased within this decade

Lol
Every time.
The decade starts at 2021 btw

your character becoming a different character is good writing actually

Hang all millennials.

Oh my science the poor millennials never dun nuthing they wuz oppressed

Glover
Flubber
Flubber 2

Maybe your heroes journey was actually oppressive to other people, did you consider that Chud?

Black Myth Wukong

Fallout 1 retroactively stopped being subversion the moment Fallout 2 came out

To be fair, greek tragedies are overrated and don't have any moral lessons in them

Runs around in the sand for a while

Journey

greek tragedies are overrated
Overrated? Maybe, but the stories that survive millenia and will outlive not only us but probably our civ as well are all important for that fact alone if nothing else.

don't have any moral lessons in them

But that is objectively wrong you dummy.

Dude got a sword through him on his adventures, he needs a doctor.

the stories that survive millenia and will outlive not only us but probably our civ

lol

stop writing your stories and characters as a checklist from tvtropes

Why does dante show have green day when dante is red?

BG3

That's a hero's journey

demons are muslims

What did the pajeet mean by this?

Odysseus, are you heckin' objectifying those sirens with the male gaze? Not cool, man. In this boat, we respect women.

And is that not exactly what's being asked for?

Reminder that you have maybe 10-20 years until everyone will hate you instead

OP is asking if hero's journey games will make a comeback (meaning there are none or barely any nowadays) instead of having le deconstruction stories (meaning there are mostly stories like that now)
The other anon then said "durrr if there are so many, why can't you name a single one?", clearly meaning he wanted OP to name one story of the abundant type

Both old and new are shit

Zoomers have ADHD riddled brains and can't concentrate long enough to sustain a proper character arc. If you thought things were bad with millennials, just wait till Gen-Z gets in charge

That's not an accurate representation of the hero's journey. It's needlessly restrictive and only has 2 steps when the actual archetype has many.

You guys say this all the time yet every thread I see is nothing but ironic shitposts. Hell even your post, you couldn't just say "Because everyone prefers 17 layers of irony these days, which fucking sucks" you had to phrase your criticism of irony ironically.

Do you have a proper rebuttal, or just seething in disguise?

Everybody already hates zoomers, tho. Seriously, the only place still complaining about Millennials is this site: everywhere else has moved on to shitting on zoomers ever since "ok, boomer"

Imagine being stuck 90 years behind lmao
this was made by the postmodernist gang

I been living in peace for years. Where is my call to adventure, bros?

The hero's journey has stories from over 9,000 years ago. Subversive story do not last the centuries they are written in, though stories that don't follow the hero's journey can last just as long.
Subversion never lasts, history has held that.

subversion of expectation has become the expectation at this point. Might as well go back to traditional story telling

Basically every single game uses the heroes journey as a template, even the “””subversive””” ones

Weird how it didn't happen to baby boomers and gen x

That's not a hero journey, just an adrenaline addict
A hero journey should be like that of Hitler.

don't have any moral lessons in them

swine. idiot. buffoon.

Unlikely. The only appeal that Millennials even got was when advertising was trying to get their Boomer and Gen X parents to buy them things and that was a narrow window. They are a safe target to dump on because companies are absolutely certain that this is a demographic that they will never have to employ at a higher level or try to sell things to.

Anon Babble posts are not video games

you heard me. there is essentially no character development for any of the characters and liberal handwaving of crucial plot-points as "Zeus or Athena intervened and changed everyone's minds/ performed some miracle/ saved some person"

Character

:/

Character with a sword

:O

blobslop

it just werks

The catharsis to any narrative doesn't need to be positive , while the typical millennial cliches of trying to subvert what would be a good narrative of self reflection and learning to support some kind of value in life is gay as fuck, that doesn't necessarily mean that kind of simplistic storyline is necessary. If an anti hero doesn't learn anything in the end but somehow effectively does good or changes people around them without changing themselves, that's a valid catharsis. If the hero fails utterly but leaves a legacy for people to follow behind, that's a valid catharsis. If the hero becomes corrupted and some kind of cycle repeats, it's a valid catharsis. If the hero fails but the villain fails even worse, then that's also a valid catharsis.

You even see that in a lot of classic literature so it's nothing new to "subvert" a narrative the issue millennials have is that they have a meme understanding of story structure. Take LOTR for example, a story a lot of people think is some simplistic narrative of good vs evil where good vanquishes evil through their moral virtues. The reality is that this isn't the story. Sauron initially wins. Frodo gives into temptation and fails to destroy the Ring while inside Mt Doom, and it's actually Gollum's greed that leads to the destruction of the Ring. Meaning the good guys lost, and evil through its own malice and capacity for destruction destroyed itself. The entire world of Middle Earth is built around the fact that evil has essentially already won. Morgoth corrupted the world to the point where it is inevitably tainted , Numenor ate itself from the inside and was destroyed by an act of God, and Sauron was able to take root in Middle Earth despite the death of his master and spiritually captured the continent with only a few exceptions including the leader of the Istari - Saruman and even Theoden for a time. Lotr is a story of good surviving while evil eats itself , not some simplistic good vs evil tale

But they didn't survive, retard.
Deus ex machina is considered awful writing today

I don't want to see a single more spoiled cunt of a protagonist who wants to risk everything because he's bored. Retarded drivel aspirational only to boomers.

This!!! Protagonists need to be ironic and detached, and constantly quipping about how stupid their quest is

Literally give me an example of “millennial subversive writing” what does this even mean? I can’t think of a single game that isn’t structured as a heroes journey or just arcadey

Then

I want to be the best! A hero!

Now

How DARE YOU define what a hero is, to me!?!?

peopIe

ah yes, the people are the ones making the products

milIenial writing deconstruction

Deconstruction predates millennials. FFS the idea of deconstucting the genre goes quite back. Look at Yankee at king arthur's court it was a deconstuction of then popular Medival novels. So it's not like Moore invented it. He just did it for capeshit.

Ironically, religion has eroded faith by replacing human spirituality with a bogus desert merchant blind faith.

This but the opposite

"When I'm in front of -17 expanses of sincerity, I'm worth selling inattention to."

If you're always being ironic then your just being earnest.

It's not deconstructing shit, it's commie propaganda

start

YOU MUST LEARN THE RIDDLE OF STEEL

end

What is steel without the strength to wield it?

Interesting comment rajeed.

JRPGs haven't been good since the end of the PS2 era.

Idk I'd probably make a game that takes place afterwords instead.

Hero's journey represents a downfall, you absolute fuck. Should you make it back up, going through metamorphosis, redeeming arc, that is the journey, that's what makes you a Hero.

Hurr durr le found sword, le find dragon, le slay dragon, le return home, le hero.

Is the gayest shit ever. That's not a Hero's journey. That is fucking juvenile escapism writing shit. Dunning-Kruger shit.

The real story is more likely this

found legendary sword

the magic is weak, therefore a stupid cunt like is worthy

everyone memes you as either Hero reincarnate

or Harbinger of doom

gets ousted from village

le find the Dragon

gets absolutely destroyed

become crippled, can't walk, bummed legs, burnt face

no one recognizes you anymore

crawls everywhere begging for food

one day some old nun gave you food

teaches you how to read

some old monk teaches you how to walk again

learn to fight with fists and staff

find old book and scripture about some old ass wizard

goes to find wizard in some swamp

find small village made of children

ogres came to eat children

you fight them off except gigachad big ogre

only way to kill him is push yourself and ogre together into the valley

sacrifice self for children

half dead in the bottom, now blinded one eye, torn off one arm

turns out the swamp is down there

mage finds and nurse you back up

stilll crippled

mage gives you magic potion to kill dragon

return to dragon

drink potion and fight dragon

wins

apparently your bummed leg and half-blinded balance makes you fight in weird stance, confusing the dragon

your old charred skin is impervious to dragon fire

potion is no magic potion at all, placebo to boost your confidence and faith

the world is now saved from dragon reign

you are now the true hero

The real story is more likely this

Insanely gay shit for faggots.

guy starts out as a weak who and ends as a demigod with a army of friends

You’ve just described 90% of RPGs

The hero's journey isn't an obligation, it's basically just a way to check that things are happening for reasons, and causing reasonable character developments.

jrpgs, like anime, were never good

this post gave me aids. It is utterly retarded and you should kill yourself
this line in particular:

That is fucking juvenile escapism writing shit. Dunning-Kruger shit.

how fucking tryhard cynical fagboy can you be
your story is lame and gay
thank god you won't reproduce

get repeatedly crippled but I drank some shitty moonshine and have deluded myself

this somehow makes the dragon that I couldn't kill at my peak roll over and die

truly the real heroism was the body parts we lost along the way

2/10

If you're not in front of 17 layers of iron, you're not worth paying attention to?

What an incredibly stupid thing to say
Just hilariously dumb and not just on one level, it has layers
If I didn't know better I'd say it was an intentional joke

be young, fail

old nun teaches you stuff

old monk teaches you stuff

fail again

old wizard teaches you stuff

Spend so long getting taught stuff you become old which makes you immune to dragon fire

guy who isn't old tries and fails to help, win anyway because you're old

Only the elderly can do things.

Good people are all secretly evil. If not they're flawed. If not they're fodder for something evil

Your own desire to do good is psychological baggage

I HATE THE ANTICHRIST! I HATE THE ANTICHRIST!

Illiterate deconstruction when you just dismantle what worked before is new tho
the only mistake is calling it "deconstruction"

Pizza Tower

This but unironically

meditating with JO crystals and doing yoga isn't spirituality karen you stupid bitch

25-54 are the most valuable market, 18-34 is the target consumer of pop culture, who don’t know what you’re talking about

It's very obvious when a story is following the hero's journey too closely. Anyone cultured enough can see it. Making a story by template is just as soulless as millennial subversive irony. You don't trust yourself enough to write a good story. So you just follow what already works like a drone.

I apologize if this is a midwit question but isn’t Don Quixote subversion of your typical knight story? it seems to be a pretty hugely praised story

MBA consultants, who are mostly still older boomers or Gen X

Spend a little time looking at normies posting on Instagram. They talk just like those shitty movies/games.
It may not be millennial writing but it is sure writing for millennials.

Your little story here was entertaining to read, I'll give you that

Are you mentally retarded? We talk about them, study them up to the academic level and people still go to theaters ( actual ones not cinemas) to see them being played by top the line actors. Ofcourse they have survived.

Well, the thing about Don Quixote novel is that the author was a tax collector. These faggs have no soul and they only want to torment poor people.

It's open to interpretation, but I would say it's equal parts parody and played straight.

Your "real hero story" have several flaws. First of all, you intended to cripple the hero yet a super power mage pops up and saved the crippled dude, making him partially function again. This is plot convenient and plot armor, the character survives and functions by pure luck and favouritism rather than his own merits. This is fucking lame and has been repeated to death in tons of other stories.
The second flaw is that the crippled hero won by making the dragon "confused". If this dragon is smart and powerful enough to kick his ass when the hero was whole and stronger, why does the dragon suddenly become retarded and get "confused" now? It doesn't have a coherent continuity and character depiction. Another weird thing about your "true hero" story is how the hero won the ultimate battle by " drinking steroid potion " and " his charred skin is resistant to fire now ". Your hero didn't improve his fighting skill and experience, he gets his ass kicked multiple times then used cheating items to win. He didn't learn, didn't improve himself, didn't get more competent, he simple relied on some magic mumbo jumbo that could have been given to anybody else. If the potion if that powerful, why didn't the wizard who made that potion use it? You know, Gandalf vs Balrog 2.0? And if the hero has his burnt skin resistant to the dragon's fire, why did he even lose in the first battle? Some of these ideas might be abit entertaining, but ultimately hollow because 1: The hero gets backed up by magic potion, it makes the whole promise of him being crippled to be redundant and a waste of time and 2: The stakes is too low inspite of your dark and brutal world build. Your main villain ( the dragon ) doesn't seem to do much, the main hero got bitch slapped and nothing get significantly worse as the main terror in the story is the savage ogre, and even this guy seems to be a joke cause your crippled hero kicked his ass.

LMAO imagine getting baited by this

This is missing the forest for the trees on LotR. Yes it's not as purely simple as the perfect good guys vs the perfect evil, but the climax isn't as simple as that. Frodo isn't perfect but nobody is. Just resisting temptation as much as he did was a super-human feat.The didn't win just because evil is incompetent but because fate was being guided by the hand of a good God. Furthermore it WAS Frodo's goodness that led to the ring being destroyed. Gollum was only alive due to the seemingly foolish mercy that Frodo showed him in not killing him against Sam's wishes when they first captured him.

LotR is very much a world where good people do good things because those things are the right thing to do and it all works out because they are creating a society ran by men of good character, and by the grace of God.
This is heavily opposed to most modern fiction with a more cynically utilitarian view on what is good vs evil being based on the apparent outcomes.

I don't think spending time to write down your long fiction is "bait". He probably thinks like that unironically.

Young "people" cope

illiterate video game player psychoanalyzes focus tested AAA bullshit, declares all video games dead forever

make game about equal unnamed wagie dwarves in some funny ass comedically-dystopian company

just divided by stuff like promotions and nothing else, no cool special distinguished dwarves or anything

roguelike sequel is about elite special dwarves that stood out from the rest because ??? and retroactively rendered the characters from the previous game inferior as opposed to vanguards

this sucks

You consume the type of media you embody, zoomer.

There is more than one hero. 'Our' guy just happens to deal the final blow. Off screen just the day before there's another actual Chad that managed to weaken the dragon. Even a day before that, there was a drunken hero that managed to land a critical blow on the dragon's head, messing up fhe vestibular system and thefore it's equilibrium and balancing ability. The mage was the first ever guy to fight against the dragon but he lost because he was cocky, like /ourguy/. He's no mage, he's a warrior. Over time he gains wisdom from his own flaws, and so he passed that wisdom too ourguy. He's really just schizo bullshitter. The nun was a mother who lost his only son to the dragon. He wanted to become a scholar but the mother pushed him to be a warrior, to become a squire and get knighted. Nobody needed a squire in castle so the son went to fight the dragon and lost his life. The monk was a drunken rapist that used to rape an entire village of women. All the women died from giving birth. The village of children is that place. You used fisticuffs and staff stance to fight off those goblins.

Then why are Anon Babble posts allowed on Anon Babble?

You seem to ignore one important detail in the climatic momment of the film. Frodo initially seems to be given in to the temptation but ultimately, he decided to resist the ring and saved himself, while Smeagol couldn't and decided to die with the ring. The main message isn't " surving until evil kills itself ", it is how to resist dark temptation and Frodo absolutely did it successfully.

youtube.com/watch?v=FyzE9thQIPo

pic related came out not long ago

I have a better idea

le find the Dragon

oh no she's a hot dragon girl

new adventure goal: marry her and rule over the world with dragon girl wife

Millennials are generally recognized as having the least purchasing power and influence

I agree with your post but this is wrong.
capitaloneshopping.com/research/millennial-shopping-statistics/

There is more than one hero. 'Our' guy just happens to deal the final blow.

It is still a very weak narrative even when you try to fill in the holes, because the more you try to push the capeshit-style narrative of " anyone can be the hero, it is a mantle ", the more you downplay the premise of your special crippled hero idea. What's the point of dragging him to through mud and lava, breaking him down into an absolute frankenstein monster only to conclude that his journey is not something readers should care about? You might have let the dragon slips on banana peel and die, it would be the same. And if there are other gigachads managed to weaken the dragon, why didn't they just straight up killing it then? Or let just say they died, then it agains your idea of the crippled hero being dogshit because he is competent enough to survive, unlike the other guys. And if you like the idea of gigachads fighting dragons and actually competent, then what's the point of shitting on this idea in your previous statement? Typical irony-poisoned storytelling.

turns into a human through the power of love right at the end

real millennial writing:
undertale/deltarune (toby fox, born in 1991)
lemon demon/niel cicierega (born in 1986)

You just described the subplot of Shrek

Morgoth corrupted the world to the point where it is inevitably tainted

Tolkien would say Illuvatar acted through Melkor to produce a world filled with good which becomes greater after having been tested and bested evil. I think this is yet more cope in the face of the problem of evil, but it's still the definitive explanation of the intended themes of LotR.

Gollum was only alive due to the seemingly foolish mercy that Frodo showed him in not killing him against Sam's wishes when they first captured him.

This is true, and it take an entire chain of events where a few good decisions ended up proving vital in the final act, and the emphasis of God's hand in the matter is important, but just as much as the few decisions frodo and the fellowship made along the way which are courageous and support a concept of virtue ethics like in traditional good vs evil stories, it is also true that the evil of Sauron consuming itself through greed was a vital part of that God's overall plan.

LotR is very much a world where good people do good things because those things are the right thing to do and it all works out because they are creating a society ran by men of good character, and by the grace of God.

Yes but it doesn't necessarily "all work out in the end". Frodo is scarred , friends die, the Shire is desecrated and Middle Earth is still doomed. Evil is technically a part of God's plan both in lotr and based on the Catholic theology Tolkien worked into the story, evil is always self defeating and values only destruction even at the cost of itself. That's large point of the work's value system

It's nothing to do with narrative, really, it's more character development. I know people shit on it and the final season sucks, but if you really think about it. There's not just ONE hero in the end, with Game of Thrones. The promised Azor Ahai isn't a singular person. Alot of them parallels the promised Messiah one way or another at one time. Each one of them has similar traits to Azor Ahai. Each one fits the propechy. They've all pretty much went though a Hero's Journey, every single one of them went through that personal downfall, only to climb back up again, a Metamorphosis. That is their Hero's Journey, each one of them has a different one. A Hero's Journey is where you discover your true self and true purpose. Often it involves realizing your mistakes and flaws, and embracing your failure. Experience the ego death. Only then you can be rebuild, better. That is the Hero's Journey.

Jack isn't the hero in LOST. They've all went through that Hero's Journey. Judas is a prophet too. Without him Jesus won't ascend. Sometimes you can be redeemed. Sometimes it's beyond redemption. (Like Michael). Sometimes the promised Messiah is actually the Anti-Messiah. Sometimes it's the damned, the condemned, the darkened heart, a monster, a beast that gets redeemed and returned to light. Sometimes it's the most sacred thing, the brightest light that burns the fastest, bangs the loudest and dims the darkest and turns into the abyss.

Is the heroes journey going to make a comeback or do peopIe still prefer subversion and milIenial writing deconstruction?

If you have played enough CRPG, you will know that almost every players try to aim the perfect ending. Almost no one like millenial deconstruction. Might and Magic is one of the big example, it usually try to be romantic and that sticks with the fans the most.

In the film

Read the book. Frodo fails in the last moment just like Isildur before him and it takes Gollum biting off his finger and falling into Mt Doom out of maniacal glee due to Sauron's continued influence on his soul.

Frodo failed , but like the other poster says, in a way Frodo 's decision to spare Gollum in a way was its own victory even if it was accidental and due to Sauron's greed essentially killing itself because unlike God he doesn't see all things no matter how much power he amazes. If anything God is the one who really wins in the end

Game of Cucks

I stopped reading right there. Have a good day.

. I think this is yet more cope in the face of the problem of evil, b

I mean that basically is the definitive answer Christians give to the problem of evil and is a major theme in Revelation, that essentially evil is just like a stress test of this reality for God to eventually create a better whole but since he's a being outside of time who is omniscient we're essentially just stuck as a part of that stress test. Then all souls are freed from hell and he recreates the universe. The Second Song of the Ainur is basically just that

It's a philosophical thought. It's in all form of media, games tv movie books even in fucking real life.

youtu.be/tssOG2rS1AA

You got lucky, lost was the example in the second paragraph.

God that story sounds awful. I love me some edgy bullshit but that's just bad writing
Also thread is now Anon Babble hell yeah
Fuck it I also can't write for shit but here's a concept if you still wanna stay edgy

Protagonist is your usual peaceful villager

Suddenly dragon attacks, burns it down, let's the protagonist go just to rub it in his face

Protagonist is scared deeply by this event and now dedicates his life to killing the dragon

Gets really powerful at the expense of his emotions

Slowly but surely builds a party of outcasts and weird people

They all bond and bring out the best in each other

all the while the dragon makes his moves via a cult that does evil cult things

Eventually get close to dragon, protagonist has retard moment via vengeance and tries to solo dragon

Gets ass kicked but bailed out by his party

Some more story happen and protagonist learns power of friendship and all that, finally starts to truly open up and bond with his party, moving on from the tragedy

Fights dragon again but it's more than just for revenge, it's also because fighting evil is the right thing to do

Dragon dies, Party is hailed as heroes

Protagonist is able to rebuild his village, get married, and lives a peaceful life.

Again it's really just a concept. I can't write for shit

Read the book. Frodo fails in the last moment just like Isildur

That scene also included in the film, there are no differences. But as i said previously, the point isn't how evil killed itself. In the book, Frodo didn't try to take back the ring. He gave it up willingly in the book while in the film, he tried to take it back from Gollum. You might think that the ring got destroyed solely because of Gollum but it would have been different if Sam successfully reclaim it to keep the cycle going. Evil will always keep itself alive as long as people are weak to its temptation.

How generic

*Frodo, not Sam. My bad.

That anon's idea is partially the story of Dragon Heart, except the villain of this movie is a very corrupted and evil king. One of the classic, too because it a very comfy and romantic movie.

Now that I think about it, yeah I probably did just partially rip off Dragonheart. It's such a good movie
Also there's a reason why the classics work. It's because they're GOOD like a meatball sub with shredded mozzarella on it

game lets you make a hard choice to cast away your friends to place the character on another path alone

kino

Alot of crpg are like that. In Dragon Age Origins, you can pretty much fired every other companions. The 2 canon companions, Alistair and Morrigan, you can betray both of them.

Now that you think about it, romantic fantasy like Might and Magic seems so fucking rare for something that is regarded as the generic writing style that needs to be deconstructed. The "deconstructed" fantasy is so much more common.

It's a lot of small virtuous actions culminating in Sauron killing himself after Frodo's willpower finally fails in Mt Doom and Sauron is literally killed by his own golem. It is true that evil must be opposed and the lotr does have a set of virtue ethics it espouses , but my point is that the "good" choice doesnt just overpower the choices of evil which does give people worldy power but is too self absorbed and destructive to have any longevity. Hence why good always survives and opposes evil while evil inevitably kills itself

All good m8 I still understood what you were saying

See my biggest issue is that people use deconstruction and subversion as a way to tear down great works of art and make a mockery of them. It's under the guise of "muh realism" and it's the most insufferable thing about modern writing today

Its not rare, just old and relatively harder to find due to them not showing up more in current internet pop culture.

It is also funny how most of decontruct works think it is some sort of super unique masterpiece when they have been a dime a dozen because so many authors attempted to write this stuff.

heroes journey

I would rather games about the fool's journey

The problem is that even classics/classic tropes can't carry shit writers

Isn't that just sarcasm?

The Fool also went through a Hero's journey lmao

Dunning-Kruger shit

This was a better insult before people that represent it found it.

The fool card means a blank state, innocent representation. That's pretty much the ground zero of every heroes.

That anon was complaining about Dunning Kruger effect while writing a story about his edgy crippled hero who won the final battle using trenbolone. This shit is just so funny, i refuse to believe this guy is not trolling.

retard criticizes retard

The story sucked but you couldn't even keep the details straight. Holy shit this sites collective IQ must be 50.

Pibby in a nutshell

Cry me a river.

No, you would surely drown in it, competent as you are.

You are expecting me to take your dogshit deconstruct fantasy story story and "Keep the details straight"? I won't keep the details straight and there is nothing you can do about it.

>stilll crippled

>mage gives you magic potion to kill dragon

>return to dragon

>drink potion and fight dragon

>wins

>apparently your bummed leg and half-blinded balance makes you fight in weird stance, confusing the dragon

>your old charred skin is impervious to dragon fire

Does the fool end as one of the arcana or does he go through all of them untill he becomes "the world"?

The Fool is a blankstate character. He is more like your own character in crpg and other arcana cards are more like NPCs.

dragon caring about fighting stances

burn scars being some kind of fire resistant armor

this is so funny

You're embarrassed, I get it.

The dragon is smart enough to memorize fighting patterns from human warriors

Becomes retarded when a crackhead approaches him with the fighting skill that is on par with a 10 years old.

The burnt scar is somehow resistant to the destructive fire from the dragon

The deus ex machina super potion is somehow forgotten entirely

If not they're flawed

I don't understand this criticism. Heroes historically always have had some kind of flaw present in them. Luke wasn't perfect. Frodo wasn't perfect. Arthur and his knights weren't perfect. The greek and roman heroes definitely weren't perfect.

Live a forced role society imprints onto you as its value, be the good christian hero, save the kingdom from terrorists, save the day, fail to do it you'll be a failure as a person

Destroy those boxes the totalitarian institution forces you into and find a better future free from those limitations placed on you

Sure, keep following the doctrine that keeps you sedated and docile, OP
And we wonder why young men feel ostracized and feel a need to look to a messiah

Deconstruction is progress

youtu.be/jLWpuLH3t6k

When they cry 'return to tradition' they mean 1950AD, not 1950BC.

Anon, go read The Chronicles of Narnia

Well Arthur was technically perfect in a way. His downfall was caused by his own manchildren knights and Mordred.

Greek heroes

Mythology is mostly word of mouth and folklore, which caused inconsistencies. The most perfect hero is probably Prometheus, he is an older generation of gods but his depiction is more like a hero in the climax of his myth.

The most perfect hero is probably Prometheus, he is an older generation of gods but his depiction is more like a hero in the climax of his myth.

Sure but in some myths Prometheus is the reason humans had fire taken away from them by Zeus in the first place, which would place his interest in one-upping the Olympians as a character flaw with real consequences for the humans. This would make his returning of the fire to humans less as a random act of selfless heroism and more just an attempt for him to make right by his own mistake, which IS a heroic trait but it's born from the results of a flawed action.

The myth is still very consistent regardless of the random bullshit. Also, you should remember that the fire he gave to human is not just any random fire, it is the secret weapon of the Olympian gods. This divine flame gave human intelligence and evolution, which is something entire pantheon againts. Pandora and the box Zeus gave to her was a copout to lessen the effect.

I'm not disputing any of that. I just think the trick at Mekone was a representation of a character flaw in Prometheus.

idgi
This just describes the generic hero's journey
is this supposed to be an anti-meme

You can intepret alot of his traits as flaws, like his perfectionism and recklessness in his journey to create life. However, ultimately, he is not on the same page as Hercules or Jason with alot of blood on their hands.

I concede that point. He's less flawed than most heroes.

It doesn't seem like a meme, more like the typical meta commentary art you usually see on Tumblr.

Always weird to see the fortnite generation bitch about "millennial writing" as if you have any appreciation for sincerity.

Dishonesty is not exclusive to millennial writing. Alot of more serious and gritty story telling and world building can have some mean spirited deconstructions.

test

I think all kind of stories should exist
but the "regular protagonist" is usually a pretty heroic person, they can have flaws, but not too much, because if they are not relatable enough the average joe will not like, even if the character is canonically a bad man (like a GTA protagonist) they still will try to mellow them to be somewhat heroic

OBESE WOMAN

Maybe viewers enjoy stories told with sincerity, while pretentious artistes prefer subversion and deconstruction to show how clever they are.

Opposite is true. Look at Walter White. Canonically """""good""""" guy. But turns out he was the most menacing closeted egotestical monster and the biggest villain there is. But how many dumb audience still coped and cared for his being? Was the finale worth it? Did it redeem himself? This is Joel all over again.

Many people gaslight themselves to remove some of the monstrosity of Walt when watching the show, in a way, doing exactly like what the character is doing. There's a very high number of people still bitching on Skyler even in the last season
Walt didn't started as a remorseless crime boss, it was all very gradual, little by little

That's hard to believe, considering how he melts dead bodies in super acid. He was a monster from the very early phase of that show.

Yeah I don’t know where this idea came from that black and white morality is somehow more traditional. If you know anything about classical mythology you’ll know that the conflicts were far more black and white. I guess it must come from LOTR which is just proto capeshit.

I think the seeds were always there, but like, dude genuinely is crying when killing Krazy 8, meanwhile he orders dozen of people to die by the end of the show

A lot of Greek mythology characters were flawed if not very disturbed characters. This was carried too even in some religious stories, or folklore. The big good hero stories of course also existed, but it wasn't just that

I have a fatique on this regular protagonist schtick. Strong, competent male heroes are more entertaining to watch and experience. Sure they can be very cringe if the character design and story writing are shit, but it makes more sense on a meta level. This guy will save the world, he can kill dragons and beat an entire skeleton army, he shouldn't be an average crybaby who doesn't know how to swing a sword or hold a gun. Even for more grounded setting, the protagonist should be an exceptional individual, someone that represents common sense and pure good in that universe, with enough physical and mental power to live up to his own words.

Walter White is the protagonist.
He is not a good guy.
You are retarded.
Breaking Bad sucks.

If you know anything about classical mythology you’ll know that the conflicts were far more black and white.

The nature of mythology is that they were written by many people. Zeus was super straight until a group of faggs decided to invent Ganymede. Or how Ares was super evil to in Greek myth but Mars is well respected in Rome. However, when you actually write your own story, you don't have to follow that same randomness mythologies have. Absolute good vs evil is fun to read, simple as that. You have a hero to love and a villain to hate. If everything is so grey and blurred togeter, your story become boring to be honest.

I wanted to like Baldur's Gate,but i never managed to get pass through the pozzed character creation screen

I suppose people got the same fatigue with "good guy heroes" at one point, which lead to more flawed characters (but not too much to not be too alien to the regular joe)
Perhaps it's some kind of trend that keep changing over time, like everything in life about opinions really

Perhaps, but that doesn't make them wrong, it just means they have muddled messaging.

He had a monstrous ego from the start. He felt emasculated from Skylar's nagging and the house hold condition (don't blame Skylar, it's only natural), with his son's disability and seeing him bullied (and by proxy, he feels ashamed from that too), and the new baby coming in, being unable to support her even at this time, hence the double job working at the car wash. This is an actual fucking brilliant genius, reduced to this poor state, all because of his ego, too, in the first place. He left Grey Matter early because he didn't like the disparity between him and Gretchen's upbringing. She was a genius and came from a rich family. He's a genius but wasn't from a wealthy family. Him leaving by choice and will robs himself out of the billionaire life that could've been. He would've had his name set in stones as a pioneer of science and a billionaire and appear in TIME magazine's most influential modern people or whatever. He was a monster from the beginning. A closeted one.

Most of what you cited there (everything except Gollum) comes from a work written after LOTR. Perhaps Tolkien had it in mind when writing the original work, but if you want to accuse people of missing something, then you need to cite evidence from the text itself.

I don't think there was a fatique to begin with. There will always be losers who want to inject his own shitty fanfiction into the storytelling landscape. The classical hero depiction exist for a reason or many, he is fitting for the challenge, he can survive until the end and has alot of potential to numerous types of personalities. The more you try to ground the protagonist, the more difficult it is to depict him in a creative way.

millenial writing

*genxer writing*

It is more like how that writing has a huge amount of millennial fans and alot of millennials starts copying Gen X's comedy writing the momment they were old enough to have a job in the entertainment industry.

Don't forget Pinkmon's GF, he let her die. The dad, unfocused at work, causing the TWO plane crash. The actual drug itself kills people, from overdosing, and from the actual gang war between territories and dealers etc. And everyone else, including the queer coffee guy. Like Gus wills out insurmountable effort to keep everyone happy and alive in a harmonic system and here comes Walt turning everything upside down like the fucking storm, making everyone dead, even in other countries. He caused the deaths, either directly or indirectly by proxies. Each of them has families to feed back home. His own family couldn't even live a normal life anymore, everyone knows who they are. Walt Jr now lives even a more harrowing life. Holly's life is broken before she could even understand what life is.

if you go that way, there was also always stories without the "classical hero" archetype
which is why stories of all type should exist, not everything is for everyone

I can understand people in-universe disliking Skyler since she did play a role in it for a time, but why would walt jr, a guy who had nothing to do with anything, and holly, a kid who was an infant at the time, be hated by the world?
Walt even admit he did it for himself

Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home?

This is some pretty bad "word thinking", and I would have expected better from Tolkien. A prisoner planning an escape is very much engaging with the real world; in fact, he is planning how to improve it (for himself). A prisoner who distracts himself with fiction is rationally responding to a world that he cannot change, but most people are not so restricted as a prisoner.
A better defense of "escapism" might be: conceiving of alternate worlds is the first step in formulating plans to improve our own world, and choosing to frame this speculation in explicit fantasy can help to eliminate biases carried over from our real world experiences.

200 posts in

Nobody has even listed these so called subversive games that break the plot format of a hero's journey

Like, Bravely Default would be less """subversive""" by this definition if it just ended after the crystals I guess but it'd be way worse.

is there a "anti subversive game" where the very flawed character ends up following the heroes journey anyway?

I'm not talking about every fiction in existence. I'm talking about that gay writing trope where you throw an average joe into a gigachad position and then proceed to mock the classical hero depiction. A more dramatic, crybaby styled protagonist can exist but it must contain a high amount of sincerity.

Can't people be sincere about wanting to write characters who are not very good? they can be stories with morals

That's just a classical hero depiction. Just because he can take down dragons and orcs to save his princess girlfriend, it does not mean he had it easy.
For the games, probably numerous crpg. The protagonist started out as a random loser and ended up becomming a chad.

That's jewish writing. In fact, whatever the fuck OP is talking about is likely also jewish writing.

Joel did nothing wrong.

Shrek. It pokes fun at old hero tropes and classical romantic fantasy ones, yet Shrek is still likeable and rescues the princess and the kingdom from a deranged tyrant. Not once is there an ounce of insincerity.

Sadly, most of the time it is all lame deconstructions. A flawed hero can be interesting if he actually stay true to his moral high ground inspite of his flaws, but this stuff is extremely rare. Most of flawed, edgier protagonist depiction are super boring to watch. They are either idealistic but incompetent or competent but also a mass murderer.

Correct. Joel killing Abby's Dad is justified. Abby killing Joel is justified. End of story.

Could you imagine being Hitler's son in this day and age? Walking in public? Or Osama bin Laden's son?

What would be for you the perfect representation of a "flawed hero", or a protagonist who ends up failing due to his own flaws ?

Another subversive thing from Shrek is how the princess's curse is permanent and there is no cure. Not everything is sunshine and rainbow. Also, the dragon survives. However, inspite of all these, the value is still very universal in the end: People can change for the better and true evil must be destroyed.

Osama Bin Laden's children went to prestigious schools in the USA and parts of Europe. His family was and still is filthy rich.

Abby killing Joel is justified

Nah. Mad scientist kike deserved it for his child sacrifice ritual.

but vaccines or m-medicine

Not how it works. Finding one immune patient and immediately vivisecting them is insane.

I wouldn't say Farquuad is that evil hes just a perfectionist and a temperamental prick. He still honors his words to Shrek despite having no real reason to do so given his hatred of non-humans. None of the people in Duloc are starving or destitute, the streets and homes are maintained and clean.

Right but you killed her father. She kills you. Still justified.

FEDRA killed Sarah. Joel or was it Tommy that killed that FEDRA guy. Still justified.

Her father was evil. Evil needs destroyed.

Cool it with the antisemitism.

I wouldn't say Farquuad is that evil

youtube.com/watch?v=roNlgIY9QKw

I get what you're asking for but I'd rather have the almost exact reverse of this image.

Start: Character living through war / hell that goes to villain levels of destruction and killing to put an end to it by doing evil to bring down a greater evil

End: Completes their journey / genocide but instead of remaining a villain moves toward "boring" peace and learning which is what they wanted from the start

It might be a bit of a hard sell for obvious reasons but everybody loves evil ladies which is why it would work from that angle.

Could go full tilt and make it wholesome where she wants a family of her own instead of some gay modern woman slop like "stronk woman who neither need nor want a man or children" shit we've had for multiple decades now.

Cool, too bad the character focken dies at the end

a jew sat down and programmed a chatbot that brings up Hitler in response to Breaking Bad

So Walter White is justified because he was doing it for his baby, right?

There's a reason why that finale scene was powerful, he admitted it was for himself after all.

Ending of TLOU, Ellie asked Joel for his honesty. She breaks down for the first time here. This is where Joel should have admitted it.

Early in TLOU2, she brought up the thing again, asking him for the last time, for his honesty. This is where he should've admitted it. For the last time. Things were never the same between them ever again after this scene.

The problem here isn't how Ellie didn't kill Abby for revenge. If Abby could do it for revenge then Ellie also deserve the right to do the same, which she didn't. It is a brutal world, there is no reason for Ellie to become an angel all of sudden.

You can have it both ways, look at Crosscode

So Walter White is justified because he was doing it for his baby, right?

The funniest thing about Walt's story is he does more to dismantle and cripple the drug trade than the DEA did in years, in spite of all of his actions being done to fulfill years of mediocrity and his ego. Sorta like how Tony Soprano does more to cripple mob related activity than the FBI.

I think Ellie suffering from her revenge obsession (the issue isn't revenge itself but more her ending up hurting everyone around her and herself as she becomes obsessed with it) is a pretty good idea, the bigger issue really is Abby who ends up having her revenge yet not really suffering it. I think both characters ruining themselves would have worked much better

Honestly, it would be better if all characters die in that game. It would make a much more coherent message on the consenquence of revenge. But then again, Neil Cuckold is a retard so we are expecting too much here.

You literally just wrote star wars but with dragon and less interesting

Live a live is the perfect subversion, prove me wrong.

Abby didn't care for Ellie the first time (Joel's death) and she did let Ellie go the second time, in the theater basement. Abby let pregnant Dina walk too, after finding her ex-bf dead and his pregnant new-gf body murdered by Ellie.

Another one of your subversive hero plot, OP. Abby and Lev are supposed to be the villains to each other, yet they harmonized, Abby is supposed to be the villain to Ellie, yet Abby was the first one to walk the Hero's Journey alongside Lev, doing the spiritual walk and awakening.

Ellie didn't really get to walk her Hero's Journey until really into the second time she hunted for Abby and Lev, and awakening by the end of it. That was her spiritual walk, severing the bind or haunting of Joel behind her mind. In turn she actually saved Abby and Lev by the end, returning to her innocence. This was her Hero's Journey as she returns to nobody at "home".

That's called character growth

Nice try Cuckman.

Don’t expect zoomers to understand that, chicken jockey is their peak experience.

Character development is an absolute meme

Do wrong thing

Learn lesson

Do right thing

Wow character development amazing such good writing

Yes, that is the point

The character learns new things and grows as a person.

No there is a Part III. It has to be biblical epic. The FEDRA is gone, killed off by the WLF, and now the WLF is gone.

The only bad guy I could think of is the deep state government. You know, fucking Luminaddy with the President behind it. So think the Enclave.

You know how those Fallout games always had like the same kill switch that works both ways? It's like the Christ/Antichrist, Seal of God/Mark of the Beast, two sides of the same coin?

Imagine the deep state now living underground, or offshore, and has bionuke to eradicate ALL living things, human and spores alike. They have the technology for a great reset.

Ellie will heal the world, physically. With her immunity. Lev will heal the world spiritually, with their Prophet teaching. H-him I mean. Abby is the fucking grunt Crusader protector to them.

So they'll need to infiltrate the Enclave, find the DNA Turbo Encabulator, defuse the bionuke, rearm it with fucking Ellie inside LOL, and launch Ellie into orbit.

The nuke esplowded in the air, spreading her DNA all over and terra forming the planet with the cure to cordyceps, and the proper great reset has now successfully begun.

You need to understand how irony poisoned the average anon is. Even MCU capeshit has character development where the main character goes from a war profiteering caricature to sacrificing their life for the entire universe. Now imagine being too stupid or irony poisoned to get that.

That's something very human , the ability to grow and change, even some big bastard can becomes better people if they really try, that's what differentiate us from animals. Obviously some people also becomes worse, but they ultimately chose this

Not every character needs to turn into a different character over the course of the story.

Developing doesn't turn them into a different character

The one that lived in the USA during 9/11 stayed for like a month more before bailing out lol.

Right at what cost? It's like using the nuke in war.

A Christian sat down and programmed a chatbot that brings up Islam in response to Breaking Bad

A Murican sat down and programmed a chatbot that brings up Al-Qaeda in response to Breaking Bad

???

I killed or help killed tons of criminals and slowed down their efforts but now my family is miserable

Its not a nuke just a sacrificial lamb. Tony got a bunch of sociopaths killed at the cost of his familys happiness and Walt got a cuban criminal and other cartel crooks offed in the process, including a neurotic business CEO.

And it's only that high because I'm here. Without me, the sites Iq maybe falls to about 10 or 5, not sure, but around there.