Name one justified reason why games shouldn't include minimaps and markers

Skyrim compass is really all you need at most for 99% of games. Minimap is bloat

hidden content is hidden for a reason, stop having achievement brain

Most of the fucking time it's not hidden at all. There would be times when you are just given two paths and one is optional while the other isn't.

because then you'd be looking at that shit most of the time, like the mindless zombie you are

how about you pick up a fucking piece of paper and a pen you fucking retarded piece of shit
jesus fucking christ
fuck you

do you guys ever mind the fact that Anon Babble is now mostly reposts from twitter and reddit (and sometimes fucking facebook apparently)

oh shit our level design/environment is too shit our playtesters don't know where they are

just slap a minimap with GPS directions, should be fine

game doesn't play itself

modern gamers shit and piss themselves

You hate to see it. Having to do anything other than follow the arrow is now a filter, insane.

how weak must your constitution be that you cry and whine because you can't remember very basic maps? why do these people even play video games? if they're memory is truly so fucking awful they can't remember where they've been then why not pull out a pencil and paper and start mapping out the area yourself? I don't understand why modern gamers throw hissy fits the moment a game isn't catered to their very specific tastes or why they seem so unwilling to overcome any challenge no matter how minimal.

I have a terrible sense of direction.

ok, so just spend more time getting lost. You'll get there eventually.

There is no should or shouldn't for games as a whole. Some games shouldn't, because finding your own way and feeling the raw exploration is the point, and other ones should, because it isn't the point in those games.
This is a stupid thread.

I think it's a bit of a catch 22. Kids become reliant on giant arrows on their hud telling them way to go and then rely on GPS when they drive so there never learn to have any sense of direction. Dumbing down games is leading to dumber gamers not learning life skills from vidya like kids used to. You'd learn to get less lost when you had to navigate things yourself, now you learn to follow the yellow paint road.

please stop posting about this gay frpg (faggot RPG)

Because their overuse creates the people in your picture and I want them to be either trained out of their ignorance or to remain upset.

lol retarded faggots can't remember where they walked 30 seconds prior because their tiktok fried brains aren't having a mini map hold their hands and telling them explicitly where to go ever 5 seconds. kill yourself.

Skyrim compass is a blight that erodes any sense of discovery.

I have no sense of direction

aka

I have no sense of object permanence

aka

I have brain damage

When I played Yakuza for the first time, after ~30 hours I realised that I didn't even know what Kaburocho really looked like. Because I was staring at the mini-map all the time, running from one objective (optional or not) to another.
I went to options and turned off the mini-map. I started getting lost. And having real fun, being actually immersed.
I guess E33 could have a mini-map as an option, wouldn't be a problem to me, if I can just not use it. Unless the game's progress started depending on the existence of the mini-map, then no, don't add it.

well but it's not like this game isn't just an unreal slop hallway sim anyway.

It's fine as long as the game has good directions. Or at least gives you a hint where you need to go such as 'your next destination is the port city Luna', which means if i follow the coast long enough I'll find the city. But alot of old games will just tell you to go to a city or place and not even give you directions.

I have literally no idea what I'm talking about, so listen well...

Because games should be about exploring, not being handheld by the UI

Because People with no sense of direction are inferior.
I'm baffled by people that start a GPS to go somewhere on foot. Those people can't visualize a basic path in their head.

I have no sense of direction

Having a minimap won't help you get a better sense of direction. Sense of direction is a skill.

You don't have a sense of direction because you're used to google maps, driving assistance apps, and minimaps in videogames. It's a skill you must hone, not ignore.

I have no sense of direction and I need a mini map

You have no sense of direction BECAUSE of mini maps. Navigation is a skill you never bothered to learn because you have conditioned yourself to crave convenience and avoid anything that requires thought.

You're right but it's still easy to get turned around after a fight since everything looks the same

i blame gps, irl minimaps have fried people's minds.

you're breaking character shill

It's just laziness, plain. Spend all your free time watching Netflix and Youtube and see if you have the will to put any amount of effort into entertainment a few years later.

every game should have every feature

This might be why it feels like a much better open world than most games have. Side content is something that happens as you explore, not something you consciously tear yourself away from the main path for.

Some people are just retarded

I don't really care about the image that's attached to the discussion, it's just context

A great number of stupid people aren't stupid in an absolute sense, they just resist using their brains at every opportunity. Which makes their stupidity much less forgivable

it's great context as it shows what kind of proles cry for minimaps

Morrowind has a minimap

People are literally crying about the game having no mini-map and you come here and say that the game is a "hallway sim". Don't discord raiders train new people any more? At least go to Youtube and watch some gameplay before shitting on a game.

Did you know that in the 90s, we used to DRAW our own maps on a piece of paper? Minimaps are a seventh gen invention (a bad one at that), people for 20+ years have been drawing and making their own maps. Why can't you?

You don't have a sense of direction because you're used to google maps, driving assistance apps, and minimaps in videogames. It's a skill you must hone, not ignore.

Even if you were to explain this to them directly they don't care, they'd just continue to neglect it and bitch some more about the next game that doesn't facilitate their continued cognitive decline

this is pretty true, these people don't even use 10% of their cognitive abilities for playing games, they're just spacing out, thinking about some irrelevant bullshit personal drama, while fiddling with their phone and glancing away from the screen every 2 seconds, games are holding your hand to an embarassing degree because they're made for these retards who can't be bothered to remember where a tower in a game was, they needed permanent markers pushing them along at all times

Minimaps isn't necessary, but having a map in general is good, especially if you're playing a dungeon crawler
Darkwood takes an interesting approach, where you're not told where exactly you're at, just a general location. The game does have a marker, although it's a perk you can obtain later in the game, and can only be used once per day.

NTA, but a compass would fix that. No minimap needed.

How do kill them? I don't believe they deserve the right to be alive if they're that petty.

Bad game design is a feature

Do some of these people ever think they have such a poor sense of direction because its a skill that they've never actually used or trained?
Unironically I have a significantly better sense of direction and ability to comprehend and read maps than my parents because I grew up playing shit like GTA and Minecraft.
A lot of the time when I go out with someone and we go somewhere new they always forget how to get back to the car unless they take a picture or make a note because people have forgotten how to use landmarks for guidance in relation to other things.

710308936

triggered

i never drew maps or anything
just don't be a retard
also you don't have to find every single hidden content

map :)

map but electronic >:(

I was worried that using google maps to scout out new/infrequently visited places ahead of time was hampering my navigation skills, but now I realize it could be so much worse

Name one justified reason why they should.

because my iq is low and i want my slop to be as slop as sloppible

Did you know that in the 90s, we used to DRAW our own maps on a piece of paper?

I didn't (I just got lost and eventually used a guide or something), but I tried it recently and I loved it

If anyone is interested in how we find our way and how google maps ruined our sense of exploration.

Name one justified reason why games shouldn't include minimaps and markers.

>>

It builds self sufficiency and character, if you can't traverse the wide open world, then what fucking good are you?

Drawing your own map (or even referring to a physical one which has been provided) is worlds apart from having an electronic map pasted on screen at all times (especially in games that don't fucking need it) and it's rather dishonest of you to suggest otherwise

So we are shaming people wnow for not having a good sense of direction?

Yes. Fuck retards.

Especially fuck retards who don't need to be retards but refuse to do anything about their retardation, and instead make it everyone else's problem

They probably do a fairly good job of killing themselves, if that helps you any

i mean it's very easy; they want you to pay attention and explore, not just head towards the glowing marker or see "oh the minimap shows i can't go there, that's a dead end, that's the edge of the map" and immediately beeline to the story point
their game has no exploration anyway, why does it need a minimap? it's entirely linear and every area is incredibly short, you cannot get lost for more than a minute at most

Give them their fucking minimap

They still complain about getting lost because the game is either more than just hallways, or because the road isn't literally painted yellow

The post wasnt for a minimap. It was for

make-your-own map system

I know reading isnt the strong suit of stupid zoomer mutts but you could be less of a retard.

I'll take it even further. Not only should minimaps and markers be removed. The files for the game itself should be encrypted to stop data miners so the player base can remain in the dark as long as possible in order to preserve the wonder and surprise for the player as they experience it.

Why would they even want to play like that? I can't imagine they'd get any enjoyment out of it. Are they just consuming for the sake of consuming? So they can say they did it and be part of the group?

that is fogged until you explore

yeah they are consuming without truly getting immersed
normoids have degenerated a lot in recent years

Still a minimap apologist.

A book rec, neat. Thanks anon.

Okay, my bad, I didn't read back through the whole thread

"Smart" phones have been a disaster to global intelligence levels. People can't even read a simple map, or have any basic navigational skills. The more we advance technologically, the more we regress as a race.

Are they just consuming for the sake of consuming?

That's exactly what they are doing. These "people" are barely capable of conscious thought

I still don't know why normies even like videogames to be honest, it doesn't seem like it'd have much benefit for them
I mean, we all had parents who got interested in games occasionally, but they didn't try to adopt it into their personality for the social validation like many normies now seem to

Did you know that in the 90s, we used to DRAW our own maps on a piece of paper?

And it was awful
Even Phantasy Star added maps on the Sega Ages release because it's pointless to draw your own maps when you can just find them online.
Having in game makes it easier to keep track where you're at and actually encourages you to explore on your own

Minimaps are a seventh gen invention (a bad one at that)

They're not, you absolute retard
Super Metroid had a minimap
PS2 GTA games had a minimap
Even System Shock 2 had a minimap (that you had enable it)

I dont even use the mini-map, I pin the full map to the screen. (best ui of any game)

because its for stupid people
stupid devs who can't write directions
and stupid players who can't read

It's so nice not to have a lot of shit on the screen.

Normies still see video games as being geeky counter culture. They want to feel special

1 or two options of paths to take

the main path always signified by lights or similar

no super secret hidden items - always in very obvious locations

who the fuck needs a minimap for this game? absolute shitters

And it was awful

Fuck you, it's amazing. I only started doing it recently and it adds a whole new layer to the experience

This. They don't develop their spatial and navigational ability because of shit like GPS every time.
E33 gives you a compass when you hit the 'check objective' button. With that, and some slight amounts of COMMON SENSE, you can navigate just fine.

Games should be intellectually stimulating. Consuming braindead media will stunt your intelligence.

Games should force you to read and use navigational skills in order to progress. Quest makers make you stupid.

Reminds me of the complaints about the navigation system from Control. You have a general map of each floor (which you unlock as you explore) but there were no quest markers whatsoever. Just text saying "go to x department in y sector" and you'd have to figure out where it was by reading signs on the walls. Tbf it wasn't that hard to navigate because there were signs everywhere, in other settings like E33 it might be harder to spot landmarks if all the environment looks the same.

In KCD2 there are no quest markers either but you can buy physicall ingame maps. Obviously they don't tell you your position in it because that's you character holding a piece of paper so you have to look around for landmarks but this system sounds like a good compromise. Saves normies the trouble of having to pick up a pencil themselves without holding their hands like toddlers.

Just remember, this is the level of intellect of the average person demanding accessibility options and lowered difficulties

funnily enough, the game subtly shows you the 'main path'. It's illuminated or cleverly indicated by remnants of the previous expeditions.

I don't mind a simple mini-map if we're talking games like PS1-2 Final Fantasy titles where the player doesn't have control of the camera position, since not having it would limit level layout since everything would need to be in view for the player.
But if you have full control of the camera, why in the living hell would you need a mini-map?
Just look around you.

Just look around you

Quest markers make game devs stupid. You can just slap a big glowing exclamation point over where they need to go instead of making a level that flows well and naturally leads the player to their objective.

If you're wondering why level design in the game sucks then that shit might be a contributing factor.

A minimap implies that there is nothing of value in the game world outside of the marked spots.

the reason people have a poor sense of direction is because they're not confronted with situations where that skill is necessary, so by not having a map the game is helping them

So that's where the yellow paint retards reside?

Quest markers make game devs stupid.

That too. It's an endless spiral, making the player stupider and making the developer worse at design which makes the player stupider and so on and so on...

With the camera. Most games with no markers will use other ways to let you know where to go, either by giving you the general direction, so you can just look around for a round that leads roughly in that direction, or though environmental clues.
A mini-map is basically pointless unless you need to know the top-down layout of the area you're in, like when you don't have control of the camera.

A game with areas as linear as E33 wouldn't benefit in any way shape or form from a minimap

You do you
I value my time greatly and I prefer no waste it wandering around aimlessly and miss out hidden treasures

Do you think some of the people bitching about it are lying to push the "accessibility and inclusion" narrative?

So we are shaming people...

honestly the gayest rhetoric that came out of the tolerant left
to tell your fellow man "don't judge me" is no different than just telling him to stop thinking
not even a question of politeness, really, since it's never "keep your judgements to yourself", but active denial of base human nature that is pattern recognition
insert a joke about why these people deny "nature" and "pattern recognition" in general

wandering around aimlessly

It's not aimless, you're making your map

and miss out hidden treasures

Why would you miss hidden treasures if you're mapping? You're being more thorough than if you play normally.

Normally I prefer minimaps, but the dungeons of E33 aren't really that confusing enough to warrant needing one. Some of the areas look a bit samey, but I think there was only ever one dungeon I found myself getting turned around in.

minimaps enable dogshit level design because navigation is delegated to a gps

Sorry for mass replying but what exactly is sense of direction and how does one use it?

t. ESL

Not him but it wouldn't surprise me. People really need to understand just how vindictive and duplicitous others can be in their ignorance or otherwise, when they want to push an agenda or narrative even in the smallest and most petty cases, of which they will then accuse you of being the petty one when they are the aggressor and invader demanding change to what everyone else enjoyed. It's just another layer to the "every game needs an easy mode and to remove any and all friction or challenge so it can be more accessible and inclusive" narrative. Despite how games by their very definition are based on presenting a challenge to the player, even if it's easy, even if it's execution-based or based on understanding the plot.

It would've been nice to know for sure which was the intended path that would trigger the next cutscene, and which was pictos/pickup path, but that was generally pretty easy to intuit. I can't see any other reason for a map in a game like E33 though.

Yes and you can prove it by giving them everything they asked but under a "ninja dog" or "baby mode" difficulty and then see how it will make them seethe and then refuse to play the game. They were never interested in playing in the first place.

I want to actively filter idiots

E33 has very simple level design for the most part and the overworld is easy to remember. What that game needed was a small checkmark for areas you have 100%'d.

Why the fuck would it need a minimap? And it does have markers on the overworld, which is more than enough. The world isn't very big anyway.

Is zero sense of direction a woman thing. My wife's sense of direction is absolutely terrible, where I'm convinced she's just constantly drive around in circles if she didn't have a navigator.

It's not aimless, you're making your map

When you're not given anything, it's aimless
Also as I said, it's pointless to make your own maps when you can find them online. Saves a lot of time and hassle making one

Why would you miss hidden treasures if you're mapping?

Because in Phantasy Star, the treasures are behind walls you can walk through that are literally no different than any other wall. There is no indications that you can walk through them and get hidden treasures.
This is one of those cases you're better off using online maps than making your own since you will end up missing all the hidden treasures

I wasn't getting "lost" by losing my sense of direction, but the game screen is so fucking busy with random shit everywhere and an invisible contextual button press in random locations makes me confused as well.

When you're not given anything, it's aimless

You're given the satisfaction of making one!

Also as I said, it's pointless to make your own maps when you can find them online. Saves a lot of time and hassle making one

Okay, but you can also just watch someone else play the game and save the hassle of doing it yourself.
It's fine if you enjoy games more with maps/guides, but there's a lot of fun to be had in figuring things out yourself.

Because in Phantasy Star, the treasures are behind walls you can walk through that are literally no different than any other wall. There is no indications that you can walk through them and get hidden treasures.

This is one of those cases you're better off using online maps than making your own since you will end up missing all the hidden treasures
That's just poor design. I would say you don't really need those treasures, but sure, if you have a completionist mindset you'd probably want to use someone else's map. But the in game map in the Sega Ages release probably doesn't tell you where the treasures are either, right?

Because the game navigation may be balanced around not having the environment automatically mapped for you.

If you go somewhere, can you find your way back home?
Can you go to your local store without GPS or a map?
That's sense of direction.

Reliance on phone for navigation causes your brain's navigation skills to permanently atrophy.

I'm more surprised people always think a sense of direction isn't something you can learn.

I don't disagree, but I've know some people who seem, I dunno, like genetically incapable of orienteering in even the most basic of capacities.

I hate to be that guy but for Americans this problem is also worsened by the fact that they drive everywhere and they get tunnel vision when they're behind the wheel. Sure the rest of the world also have fried brains from over reliance on google maps, but at least they walk to places on a regular basis and they have to use their eyes and look around at least to not get hit by a car when crossing a street, which makes you familiar with the area you're transversing and trains your spatial reasoning little by little.

How would you suppose to do that?

You're given the satisfaction of making one!

If you're talking about physical maps, see pic

Okay, but you can also just watch someone else play the game and save the hassle of doing it yourself

Because how else am I supposed to judge the gameplay aspects if I'm not the one playing it?

It's fine if you enjoy games more with maps/guides, but there's a lot of fun to be had in figuring things out yourself.

I'm fine with spending some time trying to solve some puzzles, but for a dungeon crawlers that has complex dungeons and multiple floors, I would prefer to have a map.
Keep in mind what I want isn't a map that has already filled out everything for you, but a map starts out blank and gets filled more progressively as you explore more. That's what I meant in my first post when I said having maps encourages exploration

That's just poor design. I would say you don't really need those treasures, but sure, if you have a completionist mindset you'd probably want to use someone else's map.

At some point, a hidden treasures has right amount of gold you need to buy an item to progress, otherwise, you may spend like an hour grinding

>But the in game map in the Sega Ages release probably doesn't tell you where the treasures are either, right?
I'm not sure, I only played the OG release of the game. That's why I don't like dungeon crawlers without maps

Retarded people shouldn't be able to play video games.
Reminds me to try out Morrowind.

where are my skyrim markers! I’m so hopeless with directions, its not fair!

100 isn't average, just considered normal. Average being below normal in many cases should be considered a societal crisis.

I would be ok with a minimap IF it started blacked out, and revealed itself as you explored. It would make sense as the character is basically making a mental map

But you could just do that

I'm not these characters. Are you saying they are incapable of remembering where they've been?
Plus some of the areas look similar

I only played Control for the first time last year. There were complaints about the navigation system? Lma fucking o jfc, I actually feel I lost IQ by playing it, game was so easy and boring. Total waste of potential.

Go for a walk nigga. Just roam aimlessly through places you've never been before. Look around and try to memorize places like shops, restaurants, monuments, funny graffitis on walls, anything. Just go outside and WALK.

Real
I had shit sense of direction both in games and irl
Then I played and beat Thief and it got WAY better. Shit's uncanny.

fpbp

go outside and walk

get lost

die

no thanks

You don't need a minimap you just need an actual map you can open. If you walk in one direction and suddenly you're in a town to the east of where you were then you know you were going east.

Mostly some complaints about the lack of quest markers but I didn't see that big of a fuss. I think devs said they'd reconsider the system for future games but I haven't played Alan Wake 2 so I don't know if they backpedaled in the end.

there's absolutely no fucking way this game is at all difficult to navigate

A lot of people are too lazy to learn or otherwise improve in any ways that don't relate directly to their career
Or maybe it doesn't even occur to them as an option, because it's not encouraged by society

Based. Taffing is teaching.

You have a phone in your pocket retard, if you find yourself completely lost just pull out the gps and go home. The trick is to hold it off as long as possible. But if you have a semi functional memory you should be able to simply turn around and walk back the way you came from but in reverse.

We passed the Idiocracy threshold too long ago for me to tell.

Keep in mind what I want isn't a map that has already filled out everything for you, but a map starts out blank and gets filled more progressively as you explore more.

I do like those too. I guess it's not that much different from drawing your own, but I maintain that doing that is a fun experience. But it's fair enough if that's not your thing.

Because it affects game design.
"QoL" is not a set of standard features. Mini-map and markers lame, and negatively affect core game design.
Best recent example I can think of are Ghost Recon Wildlands or Breakpoint. Its possible to disable a bunch of the HUD in either, and the maps themselves can still contain a bunch of local data. Enemy locations/identities and so on. The notion here being Ghost are afforded access to awesome US miltech, and their gay little drones spotting targets then get filtered through their support - you get the idea. Problem is, the main maps don't zoom close enough, so even in COOP you can't simply turn off all of the HUD, and have one player directing a team of friendlies. Worse is single player you can't direct more than your entire squad, and not even through the map.
Artifacts of 'design-by-mini-map'. There's an entire strategic/tactical level just gone, even in the later patched 'immersive' modes, because chuckle fucks though minimaps and markers were necessary.
IF such a thing is true then design your game first. THEN layer the mini-map HUD for mouth breathing normies.
But all of this is far more to say, HUD elements are the problem.
Even healthbars are a design crutch.

It's a great feeling when a confusing area finally starts to come together in your head, and yeah, Thief is good for that. Even the first level is easy to get lost in

Their inclusion makes brains smooth.

Fpbp

Yeah but Thieves' Guild sucked ass

Artifacts of 'design-by-mini-map'. There's an entire strategic/tactical level just gone

Yep. In an RPG for example, you're basically forced to use the map markers because the game has been designed around following them, so there's no signage, NPC dialogue, or visual cues to give you general directions. If you try to navigate without the stupid markers you'll just waste potentially hours of your life hoping to simply stumble across the place you need to be.

I don't thnk I got that far. I got up to like level 4 or 5 or something. Really have to go back and play those games in their entirety.

fbbp
these faggots would get an aneurism if they ever tried an SMT game

you only truly need a mini-map if you have some overdesigned bloated of a map with one billion mini-objectives and points of interest that require a lot of backtracking and shit, like current open world slops
a normal person will find their way through natural progression and exploration if you didn't do the above

Just don't get lost bro

In cases like that just let the player manually put pins on the map to mark important locations if they want

what do they eat?

First Post>OP
A tale as old as time

You know the huge 33 that is always at the North of the map. thats your golden path. If you are going north, you are following the golden path.
If you are too dumb, thats your fault.

so we are shaming people now for...

Literally anything that reminds the modern person that they are not utterly perfect floods them with shame and they cannot handle it, and it's everyone else's responsibility to shield them so they never need to work through this and accept themselves.

these are the same retards who couldn't figure out the golden claw "puzzle" in skyrim

Is this from Code Vein?
That map looks pretty straightforward, towers are connected to each other and bridges are on different vertical levels but the towers themselves are very narrow so not much to explore inside them. If you need to go to a faraway point just move to the next tower in the general direction and then the next and the next. How hard is that?

No, you also need it for the opposite extreme, where areas are so underdesigned that they're repetitious with no unique landmarks. FFXVI1.0's Black Shroud, infamously.

for me it's because every game nowadays is a series of a 100 fetch quests, go there then go there then come back then go there then find this then talk to guy there then come back like ahhhhhhhh I why should I remember places that I visit for 5 seconds before I'm sent off on another fetch quest to talk to someone for 5 seconds in a different place again, if it's a game where my activities are all in one area that I cycle repeatedly then yeah of course I'll remember it, but there's not many games like that, just the farming type games like stardew valles and stuff, I would enjoy that concept of a fighting action game where you're not running around like an uber driver though and you would be just active in one forest, a small town and a fortress maybe, with seasons changing, talking to the cast of characters who live there while fighting enemies that appear from time to time

Adulthood is realizing Thieves Guild is just harder than other levels. Still isn't great, like aesthetically speaking, but I won't repeat this meme anymore.

Well put, I have a good internal gps but so many games spin you around a thousand times then distract you with inane shit that direction ends up being completely arbitrary

It didn't need a minimap. But it could've greatly increased my enjoyment of the game if it had a compass needle which could tell North.
Some of the areas were very samey and felt like repeating decals. I would sometimes get lost after a battle and go back the direction I came from.

my face when plebs are whining about not having a map

Not having to care about intuitive navigability or memorability makes environments worse

try posting without an anime girl for once if you want people to take you seriously

dilate troon