What is it with mouthbreathers that causes them to have a stroke any time proper...

What is it with mouthbreathers that causes them to have a stroke any time proper, basic RPG mechanics are implemented in a first/third person view? Rolling hit chances is perfectly fine in turn based over the head view games, turn based isometric games, even real time isometric games. But tilt the camera downwards some more and perfectly serviceable gameplay that nobody ever bitches about suddenly becomes "jank" as the complaint always goes with pic related. What is the cause of such mental illness?

I'm a massive Morrowind-boomer and yet have to agree that its combat is in a weird in-between-state.
Yes, it works as a rpg-game, but it also pretends to be an action game with positioning mattering, reach, holding buttons for more powerful attacks, which creates a weird disconnect between different systems. What's the point of having a chance to block incoming attacks based on attributes and skills when you can also just step away from the attack?
Skyrims combat might be arse, but at least it tries to be an action-rpg.

positioning mattering, reach

Are you legit implying reach and positioning don't matter in traditionally styled RPGs? Reach and positioning within the environment don't matter in Divinity Original Sin? What's the point in building for evasion when you can use action points after an attack to move out of the way of an attack? Really now?

At its core? People expect every game should be catering to THEM, and as such be designed with the specific list of design choices and features regardless of whether they belong together or not. Unsurprisingly there's a reason why most people are not game designers.

If you can't comprehend how positioning yourself in a turn-based system and in a real-time game are entirely different, then there is no point in arguing.

So positioning doesn't matter in Kingmaker, is what you're saying?

mfw faggots who can't play a game without third-person perspective

I can't believe this was turned into a huge issue in Cyberpunk 2077.

I keep forgetting there are actually people who play TES games in third-person.

Okay anon, maybe this will help you understand:
Can you actually dodge out of an attack in Kingmaker? I never played it, but in your usual RTwP system, if you see an opponent swinging their sword and you attempt to move away, then that swing will still hit (based on a successful dice roll in the background), even though your character gained some distance.
Or is Kingmaker any different in this regard?

What that anon is saying is there's a world of difference between kiting in a game where your movement speed is determined by your action points or movement speed (as in feet per round), and in an action game where you just hold S at the right time

tard

it has nothing to do with the perspective itself.

It literally has everything to do with perspective. Add WASD movement to Kingmaker and you have the Witcher. In fact, you don't even need that. Witcher has isometric view. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with these games. Retards just see first person/third person, and their brain automatically goes "okay, this has to play exactly like Quake" and then throw a shitfit when set in stone arbitrary conventions aren't followed.

nah. as I said turn based first person games exist.
etrian odyssey, SMT, DQ.
nobody has a problem with moves missing in those.

I'm a massive Morrowind-boomer and yet have to agree that its combat is in a weird in-between-state.

It's not. Works exactly as told, just read the menu.

failed combat system.
just like RTWP.

And real time with pause also exists. Which play just like The Witcher. Only with the other games people know they're getting into an RPG, whereas retards are told the Witcher is an RPG, they play the RPG, and then whine and bitch about it because apparently a game being an RPG means it's jank.

RTWP is also garbage.

the witcher is an action game

isometric rpgs used to be a filter to the retards who couldn't get past having to read and learn a system for playing them, since morrowind appeared more approachable due to being an immersive sim with optional 3rd person view, as well as an xbox game, many of the unwashed masses thought it was a game they could play until they saw they had to read. Once they failed to do that, they immediately created a bad character, sped through Seyda Neen and got obliterated by random scribs while out of stamina.

"Why won't my attack connect even though I'm hitting attack? This game is bad!" -Average pleb with no abstraction

Same thing with the Witcher, to make the game more approachable and appeal to the unwashed masses, they stripped away all stat complexity in favor of Assassin's Creed combat and shit item progression. The world cheered them for these fucking dogshit changes.

Plebs expect games to be easy and streamlined. In the older days, a game having isometric view was enough to scare them away, though that changed with the release of Divinity Original Sin 2, and most recently Baldur's Gate 3.

In short, death to plebs.

Putting dice rolls in a videogame is FUCKING RETARDED

As much as I love old RPGs, this is the truth. RPG mechanics that doesn't use dicerolls for everything is much better in every way.
Did you hit an enemy in combat, then you'll do X damage +- location, skill and armor based modifiers, simple as.
Skillcheck? Do you have high enough skill, then you succeed. Simple as.
Dice are for tabletop games.

the biggest joke about witcher 1's combat is comparing it to a rhythm game because of how important the player's reflexes are. pathfinder's ruleset originated to function on a tabletop where there is no player reflex involved, just tactics

isometric rpgs

lots of games required you to read or understand the mechanics, they were well experiences for gamers

You can't do that nowadays cause retards will have a fucking anneurysm, you can only bring difficulty in the form of dodge and parry since everyone can press a timed button. Witcher 3 is a parry/dodgeslop game, it has no real RPG elements anymore.

So just like The Witcher, which retards still complain about being "jank"?

What's the point of lying? The Witcher is all dice-roll.

And what's wrong with adding that extra rhytm layer to the attacks? Did you bitch about active reload mechanics being "jank" in third person shooters too?

Hit chances are fine, giving no feedback why you missed is just lazy design.

Isometric RPGs was for retards that hated gameplay in games

Roll and Dodge IS for retards that get an aneurysm whenever they have to read

it mitigates my character's skill sheet in favor for my reflexes, which is what I don't want out of an RPG
I don't play shooters but you can look at any of the expeditions and ctrl+F "parry" to see a similar sentiment levied towards reflex based gameplay in an RPG

You don't need dice rolls to have good mechanics. It's just lazy.

you play action games for that.
or games that actually do it well like monster hunter.

It's just lazy.

why

Gameplay =/= reaction based combat

And skyrim doesn't even have that, to be honest, you just facetank everything against scaling damage sponges.

answer , why you fucking retarded ass brain thinks that translating an entire core book of rules is lazier than just doing another action roll slop game.

fucking stupid retarded nigger

You are a low IQ gorilla stupid NIGGER

thats retarded. tabletop games could just calculate their damage without any dicerolls too. but they dont do it, because its retarded.

you are big dum dum

It just adds an artificial layer of challenge based completely on RNG. It's fine for games that need that kind of abstraction, but for a first or third person RPG it's unnecessary.

rollslop is infinitely harder to make than number based turn based mechanics lmao.

And both of them are for psued fag.

RPGs had gameplay before the visual novels isometric RPGs came in.

RNG is the spice of life, without uncertainty an RPG wouldn't be an RPG.

Then again you mentally ill challenged faggots would just save-scum a failed check

It just adds an artificial layer of challenge based completely on RNG

That is literally how RPGs work.

It's fine for games that need that kind of abstraction, but for a first or third person RPG it's unnecessary.

How the fuck is the camera angle relevant? Do you have a particular angle at which a game can no longer be an RPG? How many degrees is it? 50? 45?

Vidya isn't tabletop, you fucking sperg. You don't need RNG as an abstraction when you can have actual fucking gameplay instead.

People are just told they're not supposed to like Morrowind combat and parrot it without even playing the game for more than an hour. If you use the skills you've invested in and manage your fatigue, you barely even miss any attacks after the first couple levels. The combat still isn't exciting and basically just amounts to mashing A, but that goes for all Elder Scrolls games. None of those games have engaging action combat, including Skyrim.
I haven't played Witcher so I can't comment on that.

swing sword

sword collides with enemy

you missed

goddamn school dropouts

Don't be a disingenuous faggot. The thread is about 1st/3rd person RPGs. In an RPG where you directly control a character, the RNG should be replaced by gameplay.

No, Morrowind is shit because there's an immediate division between what you and what actually happens behind the scene. If there was some sort of visual indication that your attacked missed, say an enemy doing a small dodge animation, the combat would instantly improve. Instead you see your character hit an enemy with a sword at point blank range, or see an arrow directly hit them, and nothing happens because an invisible dice roll said that the attack you watched hit an enemy actually missed them.

yeah its generally a low quality game.
fucking SNES games had better visual indicators for hits/misses.

Rolling hit chances is perfectly fine in turn based over the head view games, turn based isometric games, even real time isometric games.

In those games, if the roll fails, the enemy has a matching animation where they dodge and i actually miss. In Morrowind, i still hit the enemy, it just doesn't do any damage. That is fucking retarded and embarassing, and the people responsible for it and its defenders need to be whipped.

Rolling hit chances is perfectly fine in turn based over the head view games, turn based isometric games, even real time isometric games. But tilt the camera downwards some more and perfectly serviceable gameplay that nobody ever bitches about suddenly becomes "jank"

in a tactics/strategy game, you're ordering a character to take an action, not carrying it out yourself. it makes sense in that situation for the attack's hit chance to be influenced by character stats to decide if that attack is successful.
however, this doesn't make sense when you are in direct control of the character's actions. a character's 'hitting things accurately' stat doesn't fucking matter when I'm the one aiming the attack, not the character. pumping 50 levels into it won't suddenly my skills or influence how I aim the attack.

What is an "action game" and "direct control"? Because as far as I see it if there's no moveset to learn and no complex input combinations involved in pulling that moveset off, it's not an action game, merely an abstraction of one.

This!
Perfectly aiming a stab into a goblin dick shouldn't produce a miss, unless you consider the dickless goblin to have transitioned.

however, this doesn't make sense when you are in direct control of the character's actions

Why not? Stop parroting.

a character's 'hitting things accurately' stat doesn't fucking matter when I'm the one aiming the attack, not the character.

Why not? you are still playing a game that's based on stats and RNG elements

what if I move the goalposts and change the definitions to suit my argument

Aiming at an enemy and hitting/shooting centre mass should never be a miss, no matter the game. It's just lazy as fuck.

castlevania with its one button whip attack is an action game you retard.
I swear WRPG spergs are the biggest mouth breathers on the internet.
Completely stuck in backwards retarded ways of thinking.

You're literally redefining RPGs as action games dude, go fuck yourself and get some self-awareness.

I'm a massive Morrowind-boomer

post your endgame character sheet

I swear WRPG spergs are the biggest mouth breathers on the internet.

Nah, this is entirely a Morrowtard's way of thinking. Though, what can you expect from a bunch of retards who suck off baby's first RPG circa 2002.

those aren't people, they're normalfag animals, and they can't into first person or immersion because they're barely sapient and aren't even immersed in their own lives.

uhh, 1st/3rd person RPGs needs dice because of my autism

Nah, you're just stuck in the past. Vidya isn't pen and paper. Go play a super mario board game or something.

There was a MUCH better action RPG to play in 2002 too.

RPGs needs dice

Yes, that is correct. It's "need", by the way. Stupid third world nigger.

youtube.com/watch?v=1PcUQQOODv0
Do I need to tap the sign, morrowcucks? Yes you can have great rpg combat system that isn't reliant on muh stats

There was a much better first-person RPG too.

baby's first RPG circa 2002

kek, you say that like there's a long and storied history of 3D RPGs before 2002. real zoomer self-report energy.

Daggerfall: 1996

BG1: 1998

BG2: 2000

Icewind Dale: 2000

Arcanum: 2001

unless you're advocating for MUDs to make a comeback, you just sound like a fag that wishes they were smart enough to be properly pretentious.

Uh oh, my arguments are losing! I better use ad hominem!

Looks like you're the nigger.

No you can't, because it cease to be rpg without stats governing what your character can and can't do.

Gothic II doesn't have stats

All hail the lord of Chromosomes!

not sure why you specified 3D just to name 5 random RPGs that shit all over morrowind in every aspect
play wizardry 8 for a better first person 3D RPG prior to 2002
nta btw

3D RPG is a meaningless distinction you just moved the goalposts to restrict the amount of rpgs that existed at the time.
And even then you had 3D ultimas and wizardry games before that. also gothic1.
And a fuckload of JRPGs too.

That really doesn't matter. Morrowind is a prime example of taking a PC series and dumbing it down for consoles. I always laugh when I see people shit on Bethesda for dumbing down their games, whilst praising Morrowind. As if that game wasn't the progenitor of Bethesda being rewarded for pandering to idiots.

jesus christ

n-nuh uh u

Learn how to speak English, you shitskinned subhuman.

Nu-God of War has stats, is that an RPG? On the other hand, Planescape Torment purposefully made stats nearly obsolete, is it not an RPG now? What about Pathologic? There only stat in this game is hunger and how much aids your character carries

But Gothic 2 does rely on muh stats, to absurd degree even. I don't know why you are thinking it is a gotcha when both Gothics are explicitly about pumping your stats to become stronger, they just have way better visual presentation of your progress than Morrowind.

It's just a psychological thing that you never will be able to get rid of no matter if you call people retards or casuals or whatever you want.

onions of war is an action game with RPG elements.
tacking on RPG mechanics onto games that shouldnt have them is a very common modern cancer and nobody disputes where the number parts come from.

Morrowind is shit, but Gothictards who think their slop is better are equally retarded.

God of War isn't rpg, P:T is rpg and stats are very important in it, Pathalogic isn't rpg.
Having stats != being rpg. If your execution skill as a player is more important than stats of your character it is not rpg,

If your execution skill as a player is more important than stats of your character it is not rpg,

Nigga running low INT character

This.

I'm a massive Morrowind-boomer and yet have to agree that its combat is in a weird in-between-state.

It is almost like action combat and RPG combat are antithetical.

At its core? People expect every game should be catering to THEM, and as such be designed with the specific list of design choices and features regardless of whether they belong together or not. Unsurprisingly there's a reason why most people are not game designers.

This. People who say that nobody makes RPGs like Bethesda are being very literal about it. They delude themselves to believing the jank makes it good. They pretend the lack of balance gives player freedom when most RPG mechanics are supposed to limit characters. Build an absolute retard then act surprised that he locked out of most quests. Take for example people praising the physics of the Creation Engine (selectively), the bugs are treated as "charming" and not being able to knock the things off the table like a retard is treated as bad. Look at the faggots who talk about how you put a bucket on an NPC's head and steal their wares. Why would anyone let you do that in the first place? How is that attention to detail?

stats governing what your character can and can't do

why does weapon accuracy have to be determined by stats in a first person rpg, even though it's detrimental to the overall gameplay experience?
and why don't you feel the same way about other gameplay mechanics? shouldn't you be complaining that your ability to see enemies isn't being governed by your character's perception stat? maybe they should've just fucking made enemies invisible if your character failed the perception roll?

even though it's detrimental to the overall gameplay experience?

because it's not. A mage shouldn't hit as hard or be as accurate as a woyer, a woyer shouldn't be as agyle or as accurate with the bow as an archer

Next question you fucking retard.

People who say that nobody makes RPGs like Bethesda are being very literal about it

Please name some other first-person RPGs where you can ignore the main quests and explore a world with random events, NPCs with unique schedules, physics on every object that isn't nailed down, all NPCs can be interacted with on some level from a gameplay point of view and is extremely moddable. Please, I am begging you.

Please name some other first-person RPGs where you can ignore the main quests and explore a world with random events

M&M all the way and including Day of the Destroyer should hold you over for awhile

Please name some other first-person RPGs where you can ignore the main quests

Please name some other first-person RPGs where the main quest is absolute dogshit

You are really proving my point. You can ignore the main quest in every RPG. It is called not playing the fucking game.

Please, I am begging you.

they'll never name a game that does all of those things because there just isn't one. the only franchise to even attempt to marry RPG and SIM mechanics in all this time is the KCD series, which fail the latter half of your bullet points like physics and NPC interactions.

A mage shouldn't hit as hard or be as accurate as a woyer

implying a wizard won't get jacked from carrying all those heavy books all day

implying a wizard isn't going to develop great dexterity practicing all the spellcasting gestures

implying wizards won't cast some shit to give themselves super vision and stability so they can snipe a goblin from 600m away with a seeking firebolt

Fighters and archers are obsolete.

I don't get why you'd want to emulate tabletop mechanics. Maybe it's because I've never had friends ergo I've never played a table top game but going from "pen and paper representation of a sick ass adventure" to "computer representation of a pen and paper representation of a sick ass adventure" just feels fucking weird.

I just got done playing Day of the Destroyer last year. Might play Ultima Underworld for my comfy winter time game this year.
And you can ignore the main quest in Bethesda games and still put 100+hrs into one character. So are you going to name some other games or keep deflecting?
And that fucking sucks. Having to rely on developer for this kind of game is a pain in the ass, especially when they barely release games anymore.

Because it's fun and it allows build variety, broken strategies and weird moments.

WoW 1 did a good job of implementing pnp rules on a video game but devs probably don't have the talent to do fun things like that anymore.

And you can ignore the main quest in Bethesda games and still put 100+hrs into one character.

Then just talk about the playtime instead of construing Bethesda's greatest flaw into a strength. But nooo, you have to be a giant faggot that needs to present Bethesda's dogshit writing as being secretly good.

Hurr durr the game doesn't force you to play

It doesn't a gun to your head.

i know this is bait but i'll call you a retard anyway because im angry now

And yet, you cannot name any other game like Bethesda games yourself, figures.