I play roguelikes

if it's not literally rogue, it's not a roguelike

OP's chart doesn't use the berlin interpretation, retard.

imagine a playerbase that likes rogue and wants to play games like rogue

per this, you could have a procgen turn based single-character rpg with permadeath... but if it's 3D and you have "climb" and "leap" options as your disposal, that's too much and it's no longer a roguelike

Roguelike autists are insufferable
They are up there with immersivesim faggots

please define "immersive sim"

Exactly

Roguelikefags are like JRPGfags in that they misunderstand why a lot of people like the name of the genre. No, it's not because the game is literally exactly like Rogue. No, it's not because the game is in Japan. These are names that have been attributed to specific things that are appealing to gamers and you're taking the name too literally.

On the other hand, immersivesim faggots are simply trying to prop up a genre that does not exist based on something Warren Spector once said to market his games.

it's a third person shooter hack and slash tactics roguelike

Oh. Well, nobody cares about this highly similar bullshit.

stopped reading there

what does this mean if i'm stupid instead of autistic

"was the game made within the last 20 years"

cogmind

It means "are you outside of menus most of the time?"

Diablo 1 isn't procedural generated dipshit.

It is though

I miss when permadeath is just the normal and not a gimmick to trick people into thinking that a short game is actually longer than it is

imagine liking rogue

I'd just like to say that isometric is a kind of third person view.

I play DCSS.

Every time I died I got the same layout again.

A game where you can flick the light switches.

Is Nethack a roguelike?

it's pushback from retards/normalfags calling anything with remotely punishing deaths/losses as a roguelike.

If nethack isn't a roguelike then there's no such genre.

It's rogueLIKE, not rogue CLONES
If you want to be that strict you're going to have 5 games max

This didn't happen, though. No one has ever called Dark Souls a roguelite, for example.

Balatro is somewhat of an interesting example because the "levels" that are procedurally generated are really just the boss fights you get and the shops. Personally I'd still consider it a roguelite.

You're just retarded.

If you want to be that strict you're going to have 5 games max

Yeah, that's what they want lol
They just want Rogueclones
That's why they get so mad that the term Roguelike has been taken away from them and it can be a platformer or a FPS

lite

too bad it's tagged as a "like" then.
and yes they're distinct tags

That's a really convoluted way for a person to convey his opinion of "I don't think roguelite is a genre"

So did we solve it then? Just say rogueclone for the ascii games.

Yeah, I completely disagree with that. To me the distinction between like and lite is that in likes you can't unlock shit for later runs. You can unlock new jokers in Balatro with achievements that appear from that point forward.

Hades is a roguelike. Roguelikes can be other genres dumbass.

Spider solitaire is somewhat of an interesting example because the "levels" that are procedurally generated are really just the hands you play and what's dealt.. Personally I'd still consider it a roguelite.

For newbie friendly roguelikes, I'd recommend ToME4 and Dungeons of Dredmor

Gakuen Idolmaster is a roguelike

procedurally generated support cards that give random set of stats or bonuses

if you don't get the top score on selected checkpoints you lose and have to start over again

turn-based

Rogue autists seething itt lmao. Nobody cares about your flowchart, roguelikes (note the word 'like' not 'clone') don't have hard metaprogression, roguelites do. Only difference.

This is actually true and very thorough. It's obviously why the term Roguelite exists.

uses procgen

has permadeath

then it's a roguelike, simple as

Imagine if people existed that said all FPSes aren't real FPS games because the real FPS are Doomlikes and they only count towards games that play like DOOM.

Literally every roguelike has a third person view. ASCII grid is third person. Tiles grid is third person.

That's enough to quality as a "roguelite". You need the grid and turns too for full roguelike status.

It's not at all like that because the genre isn't named doomclone.

Except a "game like rogue" is far more precise than a game "that plays from the first person".

the number of "canonical roguelikes" can be counted on most of one hand. everybody who actually wants to play rogue already knows about every one of them. who cares?

it's not the same
it's like excluding sekiro from the soulslike genre because it doesn't have multiplayer

Thats why terms like Boomershooter came about so people could say, games that arent CoD. That's all that needs to be done really.

Is OP a faggot

yes

a huge one

I like roguelikes

rogueLIKE fags are probably some of the bitchiest people i've met online.
the games that define the metroidvania genera are all sidescrollers. but that does not mean that a 3d/first person game is not a metroidvania. hell. you could have an effective metroidvania that doesnt involve platforming at all.
because there are exactly two critical components to it,

emphasis on exploration

world opens up as you progress and collect items, opening paths to new areas AND powerups to your abilities if you backtrack

if we defined metroidvanias as things that play exactly like metroid 1/castlevania, then we'd have like, five metroidvanias that arent no name indies or part of either franchise (and hilariously, at least one metroid game wouldnt be a metroidvania

meanwhile over in roguelike land, simply being a sidescroller is enough to completely change the genera (even if everything else plays exactly like rogue)
fuck me, i'd be willing to bet that a good chunk of roguelike fags have logic'ed rogue itself into not being a roguelike.

Up yours. FTL is a roguelike, and I will keep calling it as such.

NOOO MUH HECKIN CHART

Miss me with your r*ddit chart.

Steam has 257 of them at the moment. Pretty fucked up hand you got there, buddy.

This question has been definitely answered
youtube.com/watch?v=-13LUfagQhY

No it's not fuck off

For a while in the 90s it was.

but that does not mean that a 3d/first person game is not a metroidvania.

Such as?

Wait, did that wolf just grab you with his dick? Can they really do that?

The Binding of Isaac is also a Roguelike, always will be Chuddie.

710283961

I'm not giving you any v(You)s

Yeah and now it isn't because people figured out it wasn't a useful label.

Wrong. Everyone’s game of Isaac starts with a different item pool.
Everyone’s game of brogue starts exactly the same.

Metroid prime.

By that logic Hades is a roguelike because its the same weapons at start every time and same starting chamber.

DCSS has a class with randomized skills, stats and equipment.

the chart needs to start with "is it turn based?", not end with it. what a retarded picture.

3rd person only applies to 3d games. Top down is ascii art.

Ok? Dcss has no unlocks that progressively change the game.
Hades also has unlocks.

I like dungeons of dredmor

Seems to me, you are mistaking any game with metroid in the name for a metroidvania more than anything.

yeah that's the worst part of the chart. i guess all "true" roguelikes are actually hack and slash or beat 'em up and not roguelikes

Yeah, pretty fun game. I tried replaying it recently and it was too slow for my tastes but this one's an actual Roguelike.

Is Kingdom Hearts a metroidvania?

I hate "Metroidvania"
Not as a genre descriptor, but merely as a name
Roguelites, regardless of which side of the debate you're on, are, in some way, similar to Rogue, which is considered the game that popularized the the procedural generated start again and it's completely different if you die way

The "vania" in Metroidvania is lame and comes exclusively from the fact that Metroidvanias used to refer as Castlevania games that played like Metroid. I fucking hate that the vania part stuck around ever since.

I still use the term, but I wish it'd change.

People who speak native English don't even know the difference between alot and a lot, you expect them to understand what "3rd person" means?

Golden Krone Hotel is similar

It's third person. I imagine my @ fighting literal letters.

It's generated once per playthrough for an extra replayability. So not exactly a roguelike way, but still procedurally generated.

It's more like Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night are the most important codifiers of the genre. I don't disagree you should give more credit to Super Metroid, though. And there's even NES games with similar ideas, though not as developed.

Based and correct. Imagine if people were this retarded about other genres.

just because it's top-down doesn't mean it can't be a sidescroller

FPS doesn't have to be first-person

i don't care that it's turn-based, it's still a real-time strategy game to me

To me the distinction between two genres is a single dumb mechanic that has absolutely no impact on gameplay and disappears entirely after a while

so do you thing roguelites become roguelikes once you unlocked everything? or somehow they stay roguelites even if from that point onward every run will have the same exact unlocks? why are you separating two whole genres just for this single minor aspect of a game?

so do you thing roguelites become roguelikes once you unlocked everything?

No cause you still had to unlock that shit.
This is like saying that RPGs stop being RPGs when you're max level. I suppose that's true in theory, but that's not how the game actually plays unless you use cheat engine.

Dcss has no unlocks that progressively change the game

That's the whole point of demonspawn species. Also djinni with random spells.

"Roguelike" isn't a genre at all, it's a game aspect, like "first-person" or "3D".
Isaac, Slay the Spire and Dome Keeper all have roguelike mechanics but they share basically nothing else in terms of gameplay.

"side scroller" isnt a genera you moron.
your analogy would work better if you said

actually, FPS games need to play exactly like quake or else they're fpsLITE!

Roguelites are designed around getting the unlocks, many coming with progressing difficulty settings that expect you to be managing the progression systems to keep up. The game's difficulty and experience with and without meta progression is designed fundamentally differently.

He meant unlocking stuff which you can use on your next character. DCSS doesn't do that.

i ain't reading all that
happy for you tho
or sorry that happened

I'm not sure how I feel about Elona being 'arguably' a roguelike, but okay.
Speaking of Roguelikes, I should play Maidensnow Eve again sometime.

Feels like the chart could just be "does it have meta prgoression?"

meanwhile over in roguelike land, simply being a sidescroller is enough to completely change the genera (even if everything else plays exactly like rogue)

How the fuck can a sidescroller play like Rogue at all

People have already explained to you why using fps doesn't work either, retard.

I don't think meta progression is an automatic disqualifier for a true roguelike.

If you think that "game has RNG and also might be difficult" is enough to qualify as a genre then you have no logical argument against "game is a sidescroller" being one.

bocchi the Anon Babble

Roguelike truly is a genre for trannies

Turn-based side scroller is an interesting concept, I don't know of a single game that does it though, so I can't think of any side scrollers like Rogue.

holy shit
I guess god hand has zero strategy lmao

I'm not sure how I feel about Elona being 'arguably' a roguelike, but okay.

Seems fair to me. You technically could play Elona like Rogue (i.e. jump straight into Lesimas), but nobody does that because the game aggressively pushes you into grinding stats.

Basically, you're asking if a Roguelike is still a Roguelike if it has difficulty settings, since that's what you can view meta progression modifiers as, supposing you had everything unlocked from the beginning. While Rogue doesn't have difficulty settings, adding them could still end up in a game that plays very much like Rogue.

Elona is straight up a Roguelike grinding stats has nothing to do with anything, you can also grind in ADOM

it's not, he's using the retarded definition where the only difference between roguelikes and roguelites is unlocks/metaprogression

I do. But I don't care to argue.

Holy shit your autistic faggotry has gone too far. Shut this board down.

is the gameplay turn-based on a uniform grid of tiles

No

[...] Crypt of the Necrodancer

hrm?

You know this is an absurd argument on its face. A rhythm game using turns as its input system is not anything like what people think of when they mean "turn-based".

core fundamentals of the roguelike GENERA:

complete permadeath (between run unlockables = roguelite)

procedural generation used in most aspects of the game to make each run unique

primary power enhancement comes from items as loot

if it fits these three things, its a roguelike

buh buh-

no, its time to be like the rest of us say "a game exactly like rogue" instead of trying to turn that phrase into a genera.

>primary power enhancement comes from items as loot

cool so DCSS isn't a roguelike

I'm not asking anything, just pointing out the ridiculousness of distinguishing gameplay-based genres using a non-gameplay mechanic

What the fuck are you talking about? Loot is the most important thing in DCSS. Dropping the right stuff early turns the run into a breeze, and on the other hand some runs don't have Poison Resistance and they have to pick between going into Spider or Snake. Optimal leveling is more based off of what gear or spells you pick up than a particular set plan; trying to force things lowers your winrate.

Turn based means game speed depends on player input speed. Crypt of the Necrodancer has it the other way round, so it's a rhythm game (with strong roguelike elements, so it qualifies as a roguelite).

Mooooom! /rlg/ is spilling again!

play nethack

collect wands n shit

intentionally die on level 4 to leave bones with sick loot for my future runs, thereby attaining metaprogression

not a roguelike btw

Elona, Caves of Qud, and ToME all have non perma-death modes.

level 1 char with the best items is weaker than level 27 char with maxed out skills and starting items

trying to define a genre when you can't even spell the word "genre"

It's not a roguelike, get over it.

Djinni spellcaster doesn't care all that much about loot.

look man give me a break its 4am.

definition founded on flavour description (items).

shut up. adults are talking.

I like how you can tell MUH ROGUE LIKE definition autists don't actually play any games, because most Beat Em Ups have way more actual strategy than Hack n Slash games.
Like, you can buttonmash your way through Bayonetta, but if you try and beat any arcade Streets of Rage game you'd better learn what the fuck you're doing.

Defenses are still extremely important. Besides, the fact that you only have HP as a resource to use for your spells, furthermore you might not get great spells, means you'd really like to have a potent melee option.

moncurse

You know this is an absurd argument on its face

No, it's actually incredibly easy to stand on this hill and say that Crypt of the Necrodancer qualifies for grid-and-turn based combat. The real counterargument to Crypt not being a Roguelike is its meta progression, but your response and where it's placed on the image really tips the fact that you're just butthurt that you can't concretely argue against the gameplay element, and have a chip on your shoulder from that fact.
Nah, the most you could push Crypt towards is that it qualifies as turn-based but specifically Active Time Battle systems. You also can dictate game speed based on player input, either by taking the penalty OR just playing as Bard, which removes the beat system altogether.

READ, nigga. "PLAY like rogue". NONE of the things you mentioned are GAMEPLAY aspects. They DON'T change anything about how you play. You know what DOES? Being TURN BASED, on a GRID. A TURN BASED game on a GRID that lacks all the things you mentioned still plays more LIKE ROGUE that a non-TURN BASED, non-GRID BASED game whith the stuff you described. This is plain inarguable TRUTH.

Just came here to laugh at roguekeks

non-modal screen

Holy fucking purity autism. Also, fucking wrong. Rogue itself has arguably a "modal screen", fucking retard.

This is plain inarguable TRUTH.

You lost the definition war and are not the sole arbiter of language.

I made a colloquial argument; what you're saying is absurd because nobody thinks of turn-based in that way. While you're technically correct in calling it a turn-based game, it's an extremely ineffective method of communication, and genres are meant to distinguish similar groups of interest, so on its face calling something like Crypt of the Necrodancer turn-based is antithetical to the idea of grouping similar things. There's no common ground between a typical RPG and Crypt other than a technical similarity and you know it.

no, its time to be like the rest of us say "a game exactly like rogue" instead of trying to turn that phrase into a genre.

Neither are you. You added a bunch of retarded conditions that ultimately have nothing to do with gameplay.

"roguelike" is same as "immersive sim". It's not a well-defined genre but design philosophy.

wtf I wrote cuck

Muh word can mean anything I want

You lost the argument. Roguelikes are grid and turn based. Unlocks are irrelevant. "Roguelite" is a vague non-genre. Cope.

Guys did you know if you find one exception to an element of categorical language it’s invalid? They stopped using the word “species” because some crossbreeds are actually fertile

what you're saying is absurd because nobody thinks of turn-based in that way

I think you're having one of those issues that autistic people have, where you have trouble not imprinting your limited POV onto everyone

It's antithetical to the idea of grouping similar things

There's no common ground between a typical RPG and Crypt other than a technical similarity and you know it.

No, as said in the post, one would absolutely group in Crypt with other ATB games, just being an ATB Turn-Based game where the meter is instead the beat.

This conversation started with you calling it turn-based. Now that you've added turn-based rhythm game, there's not a problem. Lumping it in with other turn-based games in general remains retarded.

Is Gacha a genre?

You might be able to find a less traditional roguelike like that, but why don't you just play something else?
Incredibly high lethality is a standard part of roguelikes. And before you start complaining that it's not fair, or that you had no reasonable way of avoiding it, yes, that's right. Roguelikes are like that. If you want fair games where you always have second chances, and you have a reasonable chance of winning on your first try, they're not for you.

bro I don't care about your personal definitions. roguelike = when I play game and it has many levels with enemies, there are random upgrades and I get to increase my power everytime I die. hades = roguelike. the name just more closely approximates the type of game. you and I get nothing from this disagreement and nobody gave a shit about rogue before roguelites became mainstream.

It's a monetization philosophy that will end up driving design as well. It arguably defines an aspect of the game's "genre" but not in its entirety.

No, it's a monetization scheme.

When you think about it from an objectively neutral point of view, Castlevania codified the Metroidvania genre much more than Metroid did. Most Metroidvania games play like Castlevania and not like Super Metroid. If we had to fix the name "Metroidvania" due to sounding silly, it is the Metroid part that should be deleted, not the Castlevania part. If Roguelike is a correct approach of vidya etymology then Metroidvania should really just be called Castlevanialike. Which is still a long silly word. Which is probably the real reason you don't like Metroidvania, because it's a long and silly word, but you shift the blame incorrectly as to why you don't like its vibes.

Your genre will be "mislabeled" for the rest of existence and there is fuck all you and your autistic little faggot graph can do about it. Your definition is obsolete and irrelevant, and your little faggot worthless community will continue to be an overwhelming minority while the people who aren't autistic either don't care and have adapted or have moved the fuck on.

You can look across all the gachas and they all have similar systems and approaches for managing resources and leveling your characters. Plenty of variation between them, but it's usually the same shtick of farm particular places to get particular things to boost other things. What mobile game exceptions to this there are tend to be more full-fledged games. Anyway, that's the main link between most gachas, I'd be willing to classify them together on that and the monetization models, then they're whatever genre the gameplay is on top of that.

i beat nethack with no spoilers
you just gotta keep notes of every detail you observe
most situations are not dangerous if you know how to be prepared and what to do
i've been trying different roles and not using alters for challenge

This conversation started with you calling it turn-based

I'm still calling it turn-based.

lumping it in with other turn-based games in general

Indeed, that is what I'm still doing

You have nothing to actually argue against the statement. All you're able to produce is a meaningless

....but it doesn't FEEL right to ME

And it's because you already know that Crypt 100% is just a turn-based game. You're just trying to mince things to qualify away into a corner because otherwise you're not able to do anything. Simply put, Crypt is one of THE best examples of fitting for the grid-and-turn-based gameplay people expect from a roguelike, just simplified in the intricacies of that grid-and-turn-based gameplay.

How is top-down not a third-person perspective

no it's not happening

why do you care about it

yes it is happening and that's a good thing

What is metaprogression? Because in the various rogueli*es I can see two types of unlocks.

dying gives currency based on progress that you can spend on stuff and stat upgrades that makes it easier to play and actually possible to beat actually unbeatable enemies to progress further

completing runs gives you new stuff for the sake of variety and usually making the game harder, like quirky new characters, enemies, items, floors, curses, game modes, etc.

instead of trying to turn that phrase into a genre.

It was already a genre for 20+ years before you zoomers started polluting it with your slop, and it'll still be a genre after you get bored and move on to the next trend.

Alot isn’t a word.

No, my argument is a lot more simple than that: you sound retarded calling Crypt of the Necrodancer a turn-based game and in the same breath saying it's turn-based like Rogue. It's a rhythm game, that's plainly obvious. It uses turns as an interesting twist on rhythm game systems but gameplay wise it's almost completely different from Rogue and things like it. Rogue and the games like it aren't real-time. Hell, real-time and turn-based are nearly antonyms.

It's second person.

No, but it affects overall game enough so that when read "gacha" you know exactly what to expect even outside of the "pay for a chance to get something valuable".

Are you fine with Minecraft being the face of first person shooters?

I don't mind roguelikes with meta progression that include stats if the game is in fact reasonably beatable without them. It's when the upgrades become necessary that the line gets blurry.

What the fuck is Noita?

a platformer with procedurally generated levels and loot
procedural generation is not exclusively owned by the roguelite genre

falling-sand game

First is Hades second is the Binding of Isaac. I prefer TBOI implementation by principle but Hades is a narrative game.

Inspired by Minecraft, so it's a Minecraftlike.

No, my argument is a lot more simple than that: you sound retarded calling Crypt of the Necrodancer a turn-based game and in the same breath saying it's turn-based like Rogue

I've already acknowledged that with

....but it doesn't FEEL right to ME

But it's refreshing that at least you're admitting that you have no objective points to go off of. You can't argue the actual qualifications, you just go "just look.....I don't like it....it's not right....." and so evidently, we're done here. You're not going to actually disprove things, you're just gonna keep shouting your preferences.

And for that, I accept your concession

That's right, i play roguelites, which are better.

Very fun suicide simulator, even if it's not a roguelike.

Is every sidescroller a platformer? Is Terraria a platformer?

Hades also has the second point, but even their non-rogueli*e games had these difficulty modifiers anyway so it's more of a Supergiant Games thing I guess
Is it not?

Sorry, the time to fix the definition this way was 10-15 years ago. You don't get to define it now.

If you want to keep lumping a real-time rhythm game together with turn-based dungeon crawlers like Rogue just because the rhythm game has you press a button every 0.5 seconds instead of in beat to a song, be my guest. To people with functioning brains, they can see how many similarities there are between a game like Rogue and Crypt of the Necrodancer in a couple minutes.

The platforming is relevant for boss arenas and exploration, but it is fundamentally not as important as with proper sidescrolling platformers like Mario or 2D Rayman.

Real roguelikes are one of the most prolific genres out there, retard. They can be made incredibly easily by programmer autists as they don't need graphics or sound, and programmer autists are exactly the people that tend to like and want to make them. The vast majority are single person free projects, a lot of them are opensourced, and you'll find very few on steam.

if you're going with that then I think Noita and Terraria isn't comparable at all
The platforms/environment and movement is very important to Noita

I once met a guy who told me he played roguelikes
so I said hey cool me too
but in fact he didn't play real roguelikes like me
and I instantly lost all respect for this smooth brained casual

Depends on your defeinition of an FPS I guess. There are no guns, so it may or may not be one. Ace of Spades added guns and it definitely is an FPS.

That guy? Albert Einstein

fuck me, i'd be willing to bet that a good chunk of roguelike fags have logic'ed rogue itself into not being a roguelike

yes you fucking retard - its called rogueLIKE not rogueACTUAL. rogue is obviously not a roguelike because it is literally rogue

"Like" doesn't mean "exact copy" you fucking autist.

that just sounds like bad design desu
if this is quintessential to roguelikes then roguelikes are not as prestigious of a genre as people try to make it to be

Nobody cares about the Munich Translation.

I'm always impressed by the overall quality of Noita memes.

Minecraft is a platformer because you jump

Sometimes, it is bad design. Yet that ends up being fun regardless. Ultimately these sorts of games are for masochists who need unfair games to feel challenged.

In case of "true" roguelikes it does.

Hiisi propaganda is always top notch.
Fuck hiisi though.

If you want to keep lumping a real-time rhythm game

Again, Crypt of the Necrodancer is a turn-based dungeon crawler like Rogue, just with an optional Beat mechanic. If you hate the Beat so much, then pick Bard and remove it. Either mode counts, you're just being obstinate.

just because the rhythm game has you press a button every 0.5 seconds instead of in beat to a song

It's becoming more and more clear that you just don't play these video games if you don't know how the turn-based systems in Crypt work

To people with functioning brains, they can see how many similarities there are between a game like Rogue and Crypt of the Necrodancer in a couple minutes.

Exactly, hence why such people say the raw gameplay of Crypt IS a turn-and-grid-based roguelike, even if the wrapper around the game pushes it into being a roguelite.

Made an easier Q&A for your genre blind faggots in this thread. Its a game like ROGUE therefore a ROGUELIKE. Early FPS games were called DOOMLIKEs because they played like the old DOOM. Hope that helps.

Fun fact a lot of Diablo style games were also called Diablolike for a reason in similar boomer-speech.

They were called doom clones retard.

"turn based" isn't enough, simulturns is more appropriate.

It doesn't have traps, cursed items or locked doors and treasure chests. Not a roguelike. It needs to mimic early D&D gameplay or its not a roguelike end of discussion.

You act first. It's a turn based system.

Again, Crypt of the Necrodancer is a turn-based dungeon crawler like Rogue, just with an optional Beat mechanic. If you hate the Beat so much, then pick Bard and remove it. Either mode counts, you're just being obstinate.

The rhythm game has a Roguelike mode? That's pretty cool.

Roguelikes don’t need perma death
(Elona, Pokemon mystery Dungeon, Tome4 as examples)

Roguelikes are a subcategory of RPG games defined by simultaneous turn based gameplay taking place on a grid in which the player directly controls a single unit at a time

In retrospective it might've been better if that term would've stuck.

Don't need permadeath.

Retard, filtered.
Either like/clone was used pretty much as such depending where you were from regardless interchangeably.

or that you had no reasonable way of avoiding it, yes, that's right. Roguelikes are like that.

There are two types of complaint that can be made about Roguelike difficulty: When you are immensely punished for a mistake, which is fair, and then there's being one-shotted by a monster off-screen. I don't think unavoidable instadeath is necessarily a part of the roguelike definition. It's roguelike, not exact-copy-of-rogue, and that's one aspect that no vidya should ever care to have.

It's fine for you to consider it bad design, but people who like roguelikes like it. Roguelikes should never have been considered "prestigious" anyway, it's a niche genre for autists. One of the most anti-fucking-normalfag types of game there is. Roguelikes were never meant to be popular, and they never actually got popular either.
A couple of non-roguelike games that had one or two roguelike inspired elements became popular (like Spelunky which I suspect was the start of all this), and then suddenly every fucking game started being labelled a roguelike just because it didn't have checkpoints (and sometimes even that rule was broken). After that, idiots felt like they were being gatekept when we told them their deck building card games, top down shooters and whatever else weren't roguelikes, so here we are.

If it doesn't have permadeath, that doesn't sound like Rogue. The Mystery Dungeon series are definitely very inspired by Rogue but they're not quite Roguelikes.

drag my Nethack save file into a separate folder to back it up

genre of the game I’m playing changes

It doesn’t matter

By the rules of the game, you'd be cheating, that's not exactly just changing the genre. Regardless, assuming you could save whenever, yes, it would no longer be a Roguelike, even if everything else was the same.

If only we had the tools to factcheck that.

Yeah, you can use both pretty much in place of one or the other, both are old terms.

permadeath doesn't change gameplay you retards. it's a complete nonfactor.

Yes it does and no it isn't.

Doesn't change gameplay.

hah, yes it does, it changes your mental and the way you think about going into the game than one without. You are forced to strategize or risk a wipeout. Its like old D&D where your level 1 party could be wiped out by 12 goblins and you have to reroll another batch in 12 minutes before you get to play the game again whereas in 5.x edish you are constantly being handed survival options so you don't just die to a simple goblin ambush. Fucking hell it does change the way you play the game.

If only we had the tools to factcheck that.

I think doom-like referred to FPS that didn't use the doom engine but played similarly, while doomclone specifically used the doom engine.

Its like old D&D

funny, both old and new d&d have permadeath. it's everything else that's different. turns out just having permadeath doesn't change anything.

skip ahead in mystery novel to find out who the killer is

it’s now no longer a mystery novel

I feel like I can’t even argue with you because you’re not speaking English, you’ve twisted language because you want Balatro(scoring game based on Poker) and Binding of Isaac (twin stick shooter) to be the same genre for some reason

fuck up and use a bunch of resources

>no i didn't, i loaded my save and redid the fight perfectly with my knowledge lol

am at 50% HP and its kinda risky...fuck it, attack anyway, I can just load if I die

my characters revive in an SRPG? guess i'll just suicide them every fight since i don't have to care about their survival, this is as difficult as keeping them alive and not treating them like expendable pawns anyway

Permadeath at 0hp vs permadeath at -Con + Death Saves...

Totally the same thing.

Yes.

Roguelike:proc gen permadeath turn based rpg, emphasis on varying qualities of gear and abilities

Rogue lite: the same but not a turn based rpg

Its really that simple you autistic dorks

Also why does nobody talk about dungeons of dredmor? Despite its very dated early 2010 humor its the most solid actual roguelike i've played

and that's one aspect that no vidya should ever care to have

Why?
Because you say so?
I disagree.
Why does your preference have to be the correct one? Roguelikes vary a lot in how fair they are, but typically they lean pretty far into the outright bullshit end of the spectrum compared to almost any other type of genre. That's fine by me, and roguelikes have always had their own loyal audience, so clearly some people like it.

no, but many roguelites are actually FTL-likes, like slay the spire

2 mentions in here, but let's not pretend this thread is about discussing games rather than arguing about the genre.

False equivalency. A mystery novel is defined as being a mystery by having an elaborate thing to solve. Going to the solution doesn't change the set-up for the mystery. On the other hand, Roguelikes are defined by many things, permadeath and no saving and loading being one of them, so introducing those abilities is contradictory to the definition and thus causes the game to lose it.

Dredmor is a pretty good take on the roguelikes as far as parody games go. The genre itself is very self-referencing so nothing wrong with humor like that.

How about just "not the antithesis of"? Explain to me how all the action games about meta-progression are "like" Rogue? It is not autistic to ask that games that you call "roguelikes" resemble Rogue at all in any way whatsoever.

Roguelikes are defined by many things, permadeath and no saving and loading being one of them,

Not they aren’t
One way Heroics lets you save and load nobody says it’s not a Roguelike because it’s not important to the definition just like how a mystery novel isn’t defined by the reader not knowing whodunnit

It's not a roguelike.

nobody says it’s not a Roguelike

You said that in the wrong place buddy.

Yes, they are. The inheritors to Rogue's legacy like Angband, Nethack, Moria and DCSS prove that, and when Rogue got popular the developer encouraged people to create their own modifications which is how many of these came to exist to begin with, being modified versions of Rogue's original code. Permadeath and no saving and loading are key links that all these games considered essential features. The first Roguelikes had these features.

Ok so Tome Elona One Way Heroics are not Roguelikes
But Balatro is

Because you say so?

yes

I disagree.

I wish you many unavoidable deaths

don't forget inventory weight and resource management like hunger being a big part of the game.

Poker is like Rogue

That's all the engagement you deserve.

Balatro isn't a roguelike. Its a Deckbuilder Puzzle Game that's all it will ever be.

It’s got perma death so it’s a Roguelike actually as that is the only defining feature of Rogue

You are forgetting the other ones already mentioned which disqualify it as a roguelike. Fucking retard.

This is the most autistic thread on Anon Babble.

Why?

Because it's objectively retarded. Just because you enjoy the retarded thing doesn't mean it's not retarded.

Roguelike and rogueclones are two different things

Roguecucks are the worst

Permadeath + procgen = roguelike. It's literally that simple.

Here. retard:

just like how a mystery novel isn’t defined by the reader not knowing whodunnit

I don't disagree with the first part of your post but mystery means mystery, if you know whodunnit then there is no mystery. If the focus on the book is to find out how the detective will follow the bread crumbs and corner the butler who killed the maid with the chandelier in the dining room, then just call it a detective novel. A detective novel is not necessarily a mystery novel, I think that's fair. If you know whodunnit there is no mystery, so no I wouldn't call that a mystery novel.

completely wrong because rogue is an actual game and there were many other games that copied its mechanics and gameplay style. it WAS a well-defined genre until it got popular with normalfags and they started calling every game with procedural generation and permadeath a roguelike

the "fun" part of why this image is so horribly wrong is that it ignores the very source of the term "roguelike", as in, the very fact that it implies the games falling under this umbrella terms are LIKE rogue games, only borrowing some main elements, meaning the term itself allows for way more freedom than the diagram does.

And this is ignoring the blatant ignorant assumptions and nonsequitur like

any strategy required?

yes?

it's a hack and slash

no

it's a beat'em up
as it ignores all the games that would lead to this question, require some strategy, but are NOT hack and slash, as well as all the beat'em ups that do require some strategy

but back to my original statement, a genre called "X LIKE" where autistic fans of this "genre" only include games that aren't "X LIKE" but only games that are "99% the exact definition of X with little to no variation to the formula", aka retards

aka retards

What thread do you think this is?

completely wrong because rogue is an actual game and there were many other games that copied its mechanics and gameplay style

NTA, but those games are just rogue games, not rogue likes
if a game strictly fits in the definition of a given genre X, then the genre of that game is "genre X", not "genre X like"
or do you go and call any racing game a "racing like" and any fps game a "fps like"?
no you don't

Do you call any FPS game a doom game?

Yeah, there are clear delineations between other games you can make, especially for the first wave of Roguelikes, which again a ton were based on Rogue's code to begin with. Over time, the sharpness of the definition has been lost, but if you made a list of overlap of features between Rogue and the first Roguelikes, there would be a huge amount of overlap, with progressively less overlap of features over time. I suppose a similar thing happens with music, like how the first wave of punk and post-punk definitely have similar origins and inspirations but sound pretty different at the end of the day. It's kind of funny to even call it punk, too.

What game is this?

They're not Rogue games because Rogue is not a genre, it's a fucking game. They're games that are like Rogue

I don't like roguelikes, I refunded Balatro because I didn't realise it was one.

I've never pretended to know what a x-like game even is. I just play games

Fixed

no cause Doom didn't become the word used to define its genre

and that's exactly where you're wrong
while Rogue is indeed a game, the term started to be used for all games that were exactly like it in the early 90s, and in fact you can find many games from the mid 90s which were nearly identical(in gameplay) to Rogue which has their GENRE defined as Rogue, not Rogue-like.

Rogue-like is a term that came AFTER this, when other games started to BORROW elements form rogue games to implement them in their already different genre of games.

federation force

if we want to go by that hyper strict definition, then any game that doesn't use ASCII for the entire visual presentation isn't a rogue-like

tfw shmups are on the same trajectory as roguelike

zer0ranger was cool but man the divided reaction to the TLB schtick shows how average person isn't built to handle shmups

no cause Doom didn't become the word used to define its genre

you're underaged
didnt even read the second part of your post

Roguelike is a term that means something clearly; games like Rogue. Obvious examples are DCSS, Angband, Nethack, Moria. These games are practically identical in gameplay, often just expanding the systems in particular directions while still maintaining the core identity. They're all dungeon crawlers.
Roguelite on the other hand doesn't tell you anything about a game. The gacha comparison earlier in the thread is apt. Gacha progression systems are an archetype that tells you something about how the game plays, but not how the gameplay is itself. Gacha modifies the genre of the game. Roguelite is similar. What Roguelite refers to is the progression systems built to get you to the end of the game, generally still in that shell of a randomized run to a goal. Roguelite modifies the genre of the game, it's not a genre by itself.

If you want to be that strict you're going to have 5 games max

and those ganes will be exactly what the fuck they want
why is that a problem to you?
how does this affect you?

What the fuck are you talking about that dwarf fortress, elona, unreal world, and cdda are only "arguably" a roguelike. I'm guessing Caves of Qud isn't a rougelike because it has conveyer belts with obstacles, and jumping?

It's not a fucking platformer you retard, if you can't tell the difference between this game, and mario you need to be committed.

They're all dungeon crawlers.

If the term Roguelike was deleted from existence and people just said Dungeon Crawlers, nothing of value would be lost.

RPG?

That's a game where you role play

JRPG?

That's a game where you role play but it was made in Japan

Roguelike

That's a game that's kinda like rogue in some way or the other

Strategy

That's a game where you strategize

First person shooter

That's a game where you shoot a thing in first person

Visual novel

That's a novel with pictures in it

Platformer

That's a game with platforms

Deck-builder

That's a game where you build decks (ambiguous)

Action game

That's a game where actions occur

Wow, I don't understand why people argue about genre so much, it's all pretty self explanatory. Guess you all suck

Nobody cares about shmups, definitely not normalfaggots. The best (worst) it will get is someone calling twinstick shooter a danmaku.

Deck-Builder:

Game where you build a deck through the gameplay and all your action economy is based around min-maxing an optimized deck because the deck of cards is what allows you to perform actions during gameplay.

Action Game:

its REAL TIME action games where action of the enemy characters/environment occurs in real time until the game is paused.

Twin-Stick Shooters are Danmaku.

That's what the whole genre of Survivor-Like games are doing. Its not a shoot em up, its not even twin-stick most of the time, its not a bullet hell. Its more like a Bullet Heaven (reverse of the Hell.)

I'm guessing that if you go by the strictest possible definition, a lot of what you do in something like cdda isn't going through a procgen dungeon slaying beasts, so you could argue that it goes against the spirit of rogue, even if the gameplay is very similar.

Actually we're pretty lenient these days, most roguelike autists will accept unicode.

It's similar to how you have RPGs and games with RPG elements. One is a genre, the other is a set of gameplay mechanics embedded into another game, like a card game, a platformer, a strategy game, a racing game, or anything really.

That's what we thought about roguelikes, until Spelunky happened.

2050

era of Shmup

everyone talks about how good Dodonpachi is but they've never played it

I agree that a distinction needs to be made between roguelike and all of these retarded indie games that claim to be a roguelike but have next to nothing in common with Rogue, but I also think that pigeon-holing roguelike into one hyper-specific set of mechanics from the 80s that can barely evolve hurts the genre more than it benefits it, especially if something tries evolving the genre from a place of understanding of what Roguelike actually means.

A fucking camera perspective shouldn't make or break the definition of roguelike. Arguably grid-based movement shouldn't make or break the definition of roguelike. There's been games since the fucking 90s that are considered Roguelikes that have a first-person perspective akin to a dungeon crawler.

Of course, more radical changes like real time combat should disqualify something from being a roguelike but on the other hand you have games like Barony where 90% of it's mechanics are shared with traditional roguelikes except it replaces turn-based, grid-based combat with real-time action combat despite having procedural dungeon generation, permanent death, and ridiculous amounts of permutations that make or break your run.

I consider games like Elona/Elin, Dwarf Fortress Adventure Mode, Caves of Qud, etc, to be a subgenre of roguelike.
A nameless subgenre, but I don't know what to call it.
Open world roguelikes? Sandbox roguelikes? Life sim roguelikes? Open rogues?

There's been games since the fucking 90s that are considered Roguelikes that have a first-person perspective akin to a dungeon crawler.

Uh like what
Those are always just called blobbers or dungeon crawlers

I've always made a great distinction between real-time and turn-based games. I see your point, though. There are games in this vein where the idea is certainly real-time Rogue. Roguelite doesn't exactly fit either, though I think you can argue it works, it's a pretty broad term colloquially speaking.

barony's one of the few action games that are rogue-ish but it still doesn't feel right to call it a roguelike

Might as well do a run of a Roguelike after all this. I'll be going for a Coglin Artificer of Chei in DCSS. I've been trying to get an Extended clear with it for a while, last time I got walled by Cerebrov as a Coglin of Okawaru. I had no access to damage boosters and even with Wand of Acid I couldn't kill the fucker. So hopefully Chei will help, but it will also make early-game very dangerous

heavy use of generation

tiles

heavy penalty for dying

Minecraft

wow that was hard

I mean
Minecraft was initially inspired by Dwarf Fortress's adventure and building mode, and DF's adventure mode is considered a roguelike, so...

This is stupid.
Gives off "superstraight" vibes.
Like "you don't want to fuck men with tits?", well go and invent a new word for yourself.
Fuck you, it's "rougelike", and if it isn't like rogue it is not one.

Berlin interpretation preceded original Spelunky release date by months, and the hd release people know by years. You were arguing among yourselves what is and isn't a roguelike a decade before the word became known to public. Terms are already being misused and it can only become worse, but at least shumps and its subgenres aren't bound to Space Invaders and it's conventions.

Games inspired by Rogue aren't really bound to its conventions at the end of the day. The most successful of these games have been the ones that are different genres entirely.

Barony where 90% of it's mechanics are shared

yeah except the turn based part is critical to what most people enjoy about roguelikes
getting into a pickle and figuring a way out of it through good understanding, awareness of what is happening and what you have available, and some creative problem solving.

It's about overcoming challenges through thought about the specifics of a situation, which you realistically cannot do in a real time game, let alone have access to as many options at once.
I've played it with friends, I enjoyed the time I spent with it (probably because I played with friends) but it doesn't appeal to people who play roguelikes because of the same reasons roguelikes do, the things you have listed as being critical to roguelikes are superficial, its like saying an inventory is critical to an rpg and why people play it, its not, but its not a good idea to make one without it, but no one is playing it because of that reason.

fpbp

wow that was hard

Game wants me to be a melee dude but I want to be a ranged dude. My acquirement is a Double Sword of Holy Wrath, even.

I just want to play a game like rogue

wait but that's like rogue in the wrong ways!

You were arguing among yourselves what is and isn't a roguelike a decade before the word became known to public

Of course we did, and we still do. Our arguments were (and continue to be) of a completely different standard though.
I think the berlin interpretation is bullshit, but it's so far removed from the sheer retardation of calling Balatro a roguelike that it can't even be compared.

Fuck you, it's "rougelike"

kek

I don’t get it, you liked Mario why wouldn’t you like Shrink High? They both incorporate size changing, platforms are whatever

rougelike

Heh. More like this then.

Yes that is why it would have been a mistake to call platformers "mariolikes". But unlike roguelike fans platformer fans weren't retarded and came up with a genre name that actually defines what the genre means.

That's kinda the issue with roguelikes, the original dungeon crawlers were designed to be replayed over and over (and forcing people to replay them over and over) to compensate for the lack of playthrough duration, and there were not as many games back then as there were now so it's not like you had that many better games to play, chances are you already finished those too. The formula has aged poorly and nowadays it's a niche taste, but it does have a healthy amount of games.