Realistically, how should "Revenge Bad" storylines be fixed...

kill your target

doesn't change anything

doesn't bring your loved ones back

still feel miserable

the end

Easy as pie

person does bad thing

gets punished for it

The only people who think "revenge = bad" are the ones who don't want you to get revenge on them

The problem is that revenge should mutually destroy them both but the way its presented doesn't convey that. Abby gets most of what she wanted out of her revenge. Ellie doesn't. She killed people on her path to Abby but not killed them as her way to hurt Abby. They were just byproducts of that revenge path. If she at least crippled Abby in some way like took a limb or did irreparable damage an arm or leg in the fight but still let her go to break the cycle, I think it could've still worked. If they balanced the pain of what they lost in even a physical form like Abby can't fight like she used to anymore and Ellie can't play her guitar, I don't think people would've had a problem with the way the game ended.

They can't because revenge is actually satisfying, and good writers know this.

That's stupid though because it's not like your personal feelings are the only things that matter.

this was decent

Revenge should make the character unlikeable

Realistically, how should "Revenge Bad" storylines be fixed?

by going extinct. revenge is good and it always has been. the only people that disagree are people and groups incapable of completing their revenge by eliminating their enemies, winding up stuck in an endless loop of tit for tat because of their continuous failure to finish the job.

Revenge is bad on the person seeking it, if that becomes their personality

Make it feel hollow

It's already fixed and Last of Us 2 did it fine
The point of literally any story about revenge is there is no real catharsis for revenge and, at most, the reward is destruction to yourself and around you (divine punishment)
And the only time this is subverted is when the character reaches nirvana before the act and learns to forgive.
What I'm trying to say is, you're a retard op and it shows you don't venture out and consume other media aside from video games

But what if I simply enjoy it anyway?

revenge bad!!!

Meh I don't really give a fuck, if you killed my acting parent with a fucking golf club in front of me you are getting dealt with. I'd go chimpanzee on your ass, chew off your fingers, cock, ears, nose, lips, eyelids, break your limbs, gouge your eyes, smash out your teeth. Anything to ruin you for what you've done.

no real catharsis for revenge and, at most, the reward is destruction to yourself and around you

false.

It's always retarded when your character ends up sparring the final boss despite the fact they killed so many just to get to them.

I mean, a pretty large crowd of people will complain about "revenge bad" even if the protagonist has committed minimal murder to reach the antagonist. I don't think that's the issue people have with it.
But I can't tell you what is, because the argument has never fucking made sense to me. It always seems to just be people who think revenge is good, or fun, or just how motivation is supposed to work in video games, jumping through hoops to explain why the antagonist "needed to die" when their death would in fact solve nothing.
I think the only solution is to start making it clearer how little the revenge killing would solve.

Here’s how I would do it. Joel dies early on to a group of elite firefly hunters and you play as Ellie. She wants to track down the group, infiltrate their headquarters, and take down the leader. To do so, she joins a group of new firefly recruits as they trek across country. The letting go of humanity part comes not across in people she has to kill, but in people she refuses to save. Unbeknownst to them there is another mole in the group, a military undercover agent also trying to destroy the fireflies. So Ellie will get close to these group of people and learn their backstories, but as the group becomes more and more suspicious, she has to play a careful game of cat and mouse, letting certain people take the blame, conveniently not saving certain people during dangerous missions, and trying to throw suspicion on other people, all to further her agenda. And the group will slowly dwindle down due to in-fighting and the various challenges they face. These aren’t bad people, and they haven’t even done her wrong, but in order to do what she sets out to do, she will have to ignore them and their plea.

Kill Darko

Niko realizes revenge solves nothing

Listens to Roman and does the deal instead of going for revenge against Dimitri

Roman gets killed because of it

Best ending IMO. Fits perfectly with the grim tone of the game.

then you're going to hell lol

And once you finally get it, that's pretty much it. You'll feel bliss for the moment, then you have the rest of your life seeing that person kill someone close to you.

who says anything needs to be "solved"? that's your assertion. if a mosquito bites me, i'm not swatting it to 'unbite' myself or solve their greater issue of mosquito bites. but i am swatting it with prejudice instead of bike cucking and wishing it good luck because it's happy it bit me or something.

Batman is basically "revenge bad" to a T. Sometimes you do need to get revenge otherwise it will lead to more cycles of strife. Batman could have eliminated crime in Gotham but his head is so far up his own ass that he let Joker and others kill hundreds to thousands more. Sometimes you do need to bend the no kill rule.

except there's one less bastard in the world, which is a net positive

Revenge is the least bad thing imaginable. Name one problem inherent to revenge.

agreed

roman never hurt anyone

pure kino

then you have the rest of your life seeing that person kill someone close to you

maybe this happens to you and it's something you need to work out with a therapist, but as someone that got revenge IRL, i sleep like a baby. when i think about it, i get warm and fuzzy and happy inside like feeling butterflies in my stomach or a warm ray of sunshine on my face. nothing else has ever been so cathartic, fulfilling, self-actualizing, or rewarding in my life - ever. it's not even close.

if a mosquito bites me, i'm not swatting it to 'unbite' myself or solve their greater issue of mosquito bites

You should be swatting it because a.) it might bite you again, thus presenting a continued issue, and b.) because nothing relies on mosquitoes and there's no reasonable harm to be done to any biosphere by doing so. If your sole motive in slapping bugs that bite you is the fucking caveman "you hurt me I hurt you back" impulse, your IQ must be below room temperature.

this is the gayest, reddit statement I have ever read
What was your revenge, the mosquito nipping at you so you flicked it?

Sure, eating doritos is bad for the person doing it if they make it their personality. As is washing your hands. Turning any single thing into your personality is bad, that single thing isn't bad because of it.

Life goal completed, this revenge bad narrative seems like it's being heavily marketed by higher ups that don't want the peasants going FULL LUIGI on their asses for their crimes.

I find interesting when the character fails to complete his revenge even though he tries everything and someone else kills the target...

Revenge bad storylines can't be fixed in interactive media because getting revenge is the goal, it's the player's win condition. Either taking that away from them or trying to portray it as unsatisfying will push the player away from your message because they did feel satisfied from getting that revenge.

if revenge is bad why do we imprison and dehumanize people for doing illegal things?

Batman could have eliminated crime in Gotham

Why is it his responsibility? Why not blame their comically inept justice system and not the one guy doing literally anything about the problem? Why does batman have to do what he doesn't want to do when anyone else could give it a shot as well?
Why don't all the ridiculously helpless people in gotham just carry firearms and shoot the joker themselves when he tries to strap them to a big hammer or whatever?

rest of your life seeing that person kill someone close to you

Wasn't that going to happen anyway? It's not convincing to say the worst part about getting revenge is that you had something bad happen to you in the first place. That's the inciting incident.

It always seems to just be people who think revenge is good, or fun

revenge is often justified, especially when you live a society with basically no real police to actually arrest the bad people. Revenge bad storylines always feel like they're decrying any sort of just retribution as being inherently pointless because "it won't bring them back" (nobody ever thought it would, the actual point is to maintain a sense of cosmic justice)

Revenge bad storylines undermine themselves because it basically just tells you that the protag's motive that drove them through the whole storyline is actually pointless and wrong. If the bad guy wasn't actually bad enough to deserve the revenge in the first place then what was the point of your story really? Imagine if at the end of Conan the Barbarian he spared Thulsa Doom because it just wasn't worth it. That would be way less satisfying than him decapitating the bad guy and throwing his head down the steps.

this is gay fanfic written by writers who want to seem smart.

Character gets revenge

Dies from their injuries after but feels whole knowing they took their target with them

What games for this

you cannot fix it because its wrong
the BEST revenge story is pic related
youtu.be/_0IyilMwEEg

he trains
he gets revenge
he is done

there
he didnt let revenge consume his life
he is a well spoken person that has a job and pay bills, protects his friends and saved the day

learn to not have the execution of a hack fraud jew like druckmann, first

The fact is Druckman thinks he's a auteur but he knows he can't hack it in the literary world so he settles for ruining video games. He's a coward and knows his shitty "revenge bad" story wouldn't work in a new IP so he transplanted it into a story where it makes no sense. Look how he had to twist the story.

The scientists would have for suresies found a cure

Look how sweet Abby is, she saved a dog, I hope no one kills it

And then what a wet fart ending, Ellie is still punished for not taking revenge.

Why is it his responsibility?

He makes it his responsibility
The crime in that city is as extreme as it is because of him and his half-assed vigilantism

The WiiU licensed Breaking Bad game

Revenge is actually good and you are a complete basedjack if you think otherwise.

Ooooh let me just forgive the drunk driver that splattered by friend/family

Live and let live I always say!

fuck off with this shit

Alcohol changes brain function and chemistry, it's not the same. You are literally not (You) when you are drunk.

Oh but all that time spent thinking about being wronged didn't make you happy or undo the wrong so really you would have been better off forgiving and forgetting instead of getting even

it should go on forever until someone gets their revenge on (you), the player.

didn't make you happy

getting justice on the person who wronged you makes you happier.

There are a few ways

the protagonist feels no different after taking revenge angle

the protagonists loses more trying to get revenge than they ever lost in the first place angle

the protagonist is killed soon after taking revenge by someone else taking revenge angle

The protagonist realizes the person responsible is either not the same person any more or that there were unfortunate circumstances that made the person take the action in first place that triggered the mission for revenge

Most of those depend on the person taking revenge though. Only the last one is where the protagonist stops at the end of their rampage.

All garbage angles.

I think you're getting this in reverse. Obviously if it presents some kind of actual utility to take your revenge (target is evil and unlikely to have enough useful skills or positive traits to rehabilitate) then I don't object. Stories that hold back on killing actual monsters who continue to pose problems just because that killing would also be an act of personal revenge are frustrating.

If the bad guy wasn't actually bad enough to deserve the revenge in the first place then what was the point of your story really?

The growth the protagonist experienced between setting out for revenge and arriving at their chance to take it that led them to reconsider. Usually this growth causes other positive changes as well, to reinforce that revenge would be a wrong decision.

the only good one was avatar
katara was ready to kill the fucker that killed her mother but she realized that his lfie was miserable enough that killing him would be mercy

He actually wanted to make the First TLOU game about revenge where Joel accidentally kills Tess's brother and then she basically spends the rest of the game hunting him down. Then you, the player, would take control of Elly at a later point in time trying to go and rescue Joel and you find him being gruesomely tortured by Tess, but you manage to kill her and rescue him instead, then the game would end with you arriving at some town that still had a community of survivors in it and it would end of some "What will happen now?" cliffhanger.

You can see he carried a grudge over being denied that plot idea by the others in the team at that point in time, so he kept that in his head and used the OG idea for the Sequel.

So it's ok to kill someone that did a bad thing as long as they haven't finished it yet but once it's in the past revenge is bad?

As opposed to seeing the person you were closest to getting killed for the rest of your life AND knowing the person responsible won't be ever meeting justice?

That's even more condemning of literally everyone else for not making it their responsibility too, and extra worse for the actual existing structures of justice and punishment for not doing their fucking job. Batman doesn't even get paid for this shit.
Everything changes your brain chemistry. Going for a jog releases chemicals that change your brain chemistry. Brains are flexible. You also already usually know the kind of attitudes you get when you drink, which is why if your friends have to hide your car keys from you, it's irresponsible for you to get drunk in the first place.

They might have a family that would grieve for them, too. How could you subject them to that fate when they dindu nuffin?

I think the issue here is that they're limited by what they can show, for the sake of decency. I don't think they're 'allowed' to have a story where the protagonist is extremely happy with his revenge, kicks the guy's corpse a few times out of spite, then goes home to fuck his love interest.
It's sort of like how whenever you have some guy facing the death penalty, the family of the victim never says "Fuck that guy, I hope it hurts."
I think only hentai games get the really visceral thrill of revenge down pat, because it also usually involves sexual domination.

We must be...better. I think Kratos was maybe right bros....

CoJ Gunslinger did it fine

Why not go with the obvious solution of it being the first step to closure?
Let it actually mean something since taking a life is a huge undertaking when you actively choose to do so

The existing structures of justice were handling crime as best they could, yes it wasn't amazing but there were no threats of citywide mass destruction until a rich little faggot decided to kick the hornet's nest and never actually eradicate them. It's hardly on the cops for not keeping up with the acceleration that one man caused

Ending of I Saw The Devil solved this a long time ago.
youtu.be/9KCoKBai8P8
You simply show the aftermath, that vengeance didn't solve much of anything.

Also spoilers for the movie. The context is the tied up guy is a serial killer who killed the main character's wife. Its a pretty crazy film.

I think only hentai games get the really visceral thrill of revenge down pat, because it also usually involves sexual domination.

Do I really want to know what this means

It means that you kill the bad guy and fuck his women, or the bad guy is so vile that revenge is awesome.
The rather dodgy anime Redo of Healer is about a guy living his best life while getting revenge, for example.

Vengeance not solving much of anything only makes it neutral, not bad. And even then it's still right even without gaining anything from it.

This is why shit like TLoU2 falls flat on its face, because by Ellie choosing to spare Abbie, it completely invalidates the road of death she carved to get there. Which is retarded and an anthesis of what the game is trying to say because that's "the message" is that Ellie paved a path of blood of innocents in her pursuit of Abbie. But by not ultimately fulfilling her goal, and giving up her wish for revenge, it actually invalidates all their deaths and makes them even more pointless. Taking away control from the player to stop them from fulfilling this bloodlust themselves makes it even worse.

In a somewhat well executed product Abby would have actually been made likeable and the player would be left to choose if she drowns at the end or not

decided to kick the hornet's nest

keeping up with the acceleration that one man caused

Actually, the increase in arson is definitely tied directly to the thoughtless actions of "puts out fires-man"!

It's sociopathic to think that if someone executes a loved one right in front of you that revenge wouldn't bring catharsis. I'd much rather have revenge than have to constantly think about how a murderer is free and happy.

Kid in high school bullied my cousin. While he was in his locker I ran up, kicked the door in with his head inside and gashed him open. Got suspended and did community service. The kid went from being a loud mouthed asshole to a timid nobody for the last two years before graduation. I have never once looked back on that moment and not been proud of myself for fucking that kid up.

well they have to actually get the revenge.

If "puts out fires-man" keeps walking away while the embers are still going so that next door goes up in an hour as well then yeah it is

I think Gun X Sword was a good representation of how you can showcase someone getting revenge but also showcase that it's kind of empty after that. Van's whole goal was to kill the man who killed his wife. He finally accomplished that and then just wandered off because he wasn't really sure what to do with himself because all he had lived for until that moment was getting revenge. Van accomplished his goal but then after that goal was gone he was left with really nothing so all he could do was wander off while he tried to figure something out.

Yeah exactly. Giving the players Abby's POV is interesting enough but they make Abby a completely unlikeable grotesque cunt. At no point did I empathize with her. She was allowed to give her revenge, but Ellie couldn't have hers because "durrr revenge bad"

Ellie didn't "break the cycle" by choosing to spare Abby, because she left a trail of bodies 10 miles long to get there. Awful ass writing. It could have actually been done better in the show since they don't have to show Ellie merking people every 5 minutes to hold your attention, but they somehow fuck it up even harder there.

And in this scenario the firefighters that do nothing thanks to corruption and kickbacks, the bystanders that just gawk, and even the arsonist himself are blameless and unaccounted for.
Damn you puts out fires-man, this is all your fault for not being more rigorous! You're the reason this city is burning down!

That's really just a delayed response to having his life torn apart. The focus on revenge put it off for a time but if he hadn't tried to get it in the first place then the emptiness would have hit him immediately after the shock of the tragedy.

city has some fires, fire department can mostly handle it

random guy comes in to show off how much better he is at fighting fires but never finishes the job

arsonists suddenly start using much more sophisticated methods that the fire department can't keep up with

Yeah it's still that guy's fault

arsonists suddenly start

It's not puts out fires-man's fault arsonists exist. It's also not his fault they keep letting them out of prison for some reason. Not actually sure why that's his fault. Maybe they should instead try keeping them inside of the prisons, and then there'd be less arsonists.

It's his fault if the same person has prematurely gotten out of prison 500 times in a row and he still hands them over to be placed back in there

No that's definitely their fault. If your molester got out of prison and started molesting you again, would it be the fault of the officer who arrested him for not illegally shooting him in the face, or the prison for letting him out? Should the police just shoot everyone just in case the prison lets them out for some reason, since it would be their responsibility?

R-revenge bad goy!

But it's okay when we do it or whatever

what are the implications of limp wristed writers who've never experienced a single day of harship telling others what their moral compass should be?
If you want good explorations of themes of vengeance:
faggots like druckmann should go to the frontlines and witness death first-hand. Obviously that'll never happen which is why all the interesting literature written about the topic has been done already by veterans and witnesses of atrocity.
To be honest, even if Ellie did kill the roidzilla it wouldn't even be better than what we got since it so clearly comes an insincere fool's perspective at best and a well poisoning jew at worst.

just let the player decide what to do with Abby, Ellie's ending would have sucked either way since she lost everything

It’s funny you mention this because at the end of the day it’s not supposed to be “revenge bad” but rather “obsession bad” which is a very understandable message. But fags like cuckman don’t get that and end up making stories that try to subvert something that was never there.

If my molester got out and started molesting me again then it would be my fault if I enabled another repeat of that cycle of events
How many times does the justice system have to fail before those who continue relying on them despite having the means and opportunity not to are part of the problem?

revenge bad

revenge bad

Apparently all the play-testers killed Abby so they took the choice away entirely.

Usually this growth causes other positive changes as well, to reinforce that revenge would be a wrong decision.

But this undermines the story itself because if the story is about how the protagonist learned it was better to just stay at home and do nothing then why even tell the story? The only way this works is if there's a twist where the original target of the revenge isn't actually at fault and there's another big bad pulling the strings.

Well, the important thing is that you've somehow logically wrapped around to claiming it's your fault if you get molested twice.

revenge bad

Put a branching path towards the end with something like an NPC asking you to come back home for some reason which would require turning your back on the quest for revenge, make that end the game early but make it the good ending. Players will naturally be drawn to completing the revenge quest after which give them a worse ending, highlighting what they could have had if they weren't hung up on vengeance while also making the player complicit in the character lacking that

Why is it his responsibility? Why not blame their comically inept justice system and not the one guy doing literally anything about the problem? Why does batman have to do what he doesn't want to do when anyone else could give it a shot as well?

Im not saying its his responsibility, just that if hes gonna go the path of the vigilante he may as well do that job right. Every week Joker is back out of Arkham so at best Batman has had no effect on Gotham or at worst hes a net negative for Gotham because if he doesnt fight crime to solve problems he does it to temporarily soothe his ego and say "I did something". Even if he didnt give a fuck about Gotham the Joker and the rest of the rogue gallery have brought harm to Alfred, the Robins and other people close to Batman. Anything that happens to everyone else now is entirely Batmans fault.

I also agree that Gotham PD is crazy incompetent. They definitely should improve to the point that they can bench Batman permanently.

that's why I just get the girlfriend killed instead

No, thrice. After the second time it's my responsibility to try a different solution, if I don't then it's on me when it happens yet again.

That only really works for something involving a mystery like getting carried away and taking out Namatame in Persona 4. If I know from the start who I'm going after for revenge then I don't care if it turns out he has a boss.

how should "Revenge Bad" storylines be fixed?

It can't be fixed. Revenge feels fucking good.

Original MW3. Price getting one last smoke looking at Makarovs hanging is kino. Pure silence

No you can't just have catharsis you have to ask if you're really any better than the bad guy and maybe criminals should move into your neighbourhoods actually why shouldn't they?

Jewish propaganda.

So there was a girl I dated. And she left me for a guy. Then she left the guy and he offed himself. I felt ecstatic. I bet revenge feels even better.

Revenge feels fucking good.

Fucking this.

I hate when they do the "I went down that path too. I got my revenge. It didn't make me feel any better. Don't make the same mistake I did." bullshit. Revenge is absolutely cathartic. That's why we seek it. Stories are better when that person who went down that path before tries to help them get their revenge instead of trying to talk them out of it.

I honestly think the "vengeance not solving anything" narrative is the biggest lie ever conceived. When old civilizations pillaged or got revenge they killed every last person because so long as one person was alive they would live to get revenge. So the media tricks us into not wanting revenge to condition a lukewarm response in the plebeian masses so whenever the government or media trespasses on us we will be conditioned into not doing shit.

Price doesnt die in the OG.

Want a game with a grizzled old NPC who will advise you how to do things like get subscriptions to homosexual pornography sent to my targets place of work or have him deported or plant a fake gun in his truck with a map of circled gas stations before phoning in an anonymous tip to the police about a guy talking about robbing them

Shalom!

Unironically Undertale did it pretty well.

In God of War, the writers keep trying to tell me revenge is bad but Kratos got his catharsis and is living his best life raising his son. They can't even keep track of what they're saying, they just know "revenge bad" and so they shove it in.

Which is strange because the futility of revenge was already covered best in the original game

You can still show the negative consequences that could arise from pursuing it.

Oh no how dare you blast Mc Minihitler with a shotgun in his nuts? Don't you know revenge bad? I bet you must feel really hollow and empty now. What fun is there in murdering the guy who killed your dog, raped your daughter and sent 50000 elite giganiggas after you? Surely you can see now that senseless revenge and juggling his torso on c4 explosions just leads to tunnel vision that will hurt everyone around you.

Achievement unlocked:
Am I the bad guy?

I never really got that revenge is futile from the previous God of War games. More just maybe don't let your desire for revenge turn you into a murderhobo.

Realistically, how should "Revenge Bad" storylines be fixed?

By not being faggots and having your protagonist go through with their revenge.

shalom, why do jews make soo many stories about revenge? they can't think in something else than holding a grudge against everybody?

This movie is what last of us 2 should be

By removing the "revenge bad" aspect
Imagine
Iñigo Montoya from the Princess Bride is how you do a revenge story

The first game has him try to kill himself after his vengeance did nothing and he found out that he would have to continue to live with his nightmares.

He didn't kill Ares for revenge. He did it because he was told.
Everything with Zeus was purely revenge.

But it's not that he regretted taking revenge. It's just it was the only thing he had left to live for. That's not an argument against revenge. If anything, if someone wronged you so much that you literally have nothing left to live for except revenge I'd say it's an argument FOR revenge.

Being told to do it doesn't mean there was no revenge at play, he explicitly swears vengeance on Ares for tricking him into killing his family.

It was still futile

The only thing Kratos wanted was to get rid of his memories. He didn't give a shit about killing Ares.
If Athena had offered a mind wipe right before the first game he would have taken it without a second thought.

Realistically, how should "Revenge Bad" storylines be fixed?

Change it to ''revenge is good and fucking based actually''. "Revenge Bad" is kike subversion and only sōyified Redditors think it's ''deep''.

I guess saying things about how Ares will pay with his life and that no man, god or beast can stop it made it seem more like he cared about killing Ares to me

quadruple-down on revenge and turn the character into a revenge whore who willingly seeks revenge murder for sexual gratification

No, going out and learning those things because you were on a quest for revenge was good. Part of the message is that a journey doesn't have to be perfect from the start to have a positive impact.

Maybe the real revenge was the friends we made along the way

Revenge is good and should be portrayed as such.
The proof is in 2000+ years of stories. (Revenge stories are one of the most popular genres, up there with The Hero's Journey.)

Now how many revenge stories have the guy still out there being a general asshole, turning the one taking revenge into a hero of the people?
Do you perhaps think the continued bad behavior is an important part of that equation? Or just "revenge good, wheeeeee"?

realistically, the game had no reason to not allow you to reach for your gun and pick the two retards off with a shotgun on the beach, or just pull up a chair and enjoy the view of them suffering and then returning to the house with a sense of having fullfilled one's objective

You have to remember he didn't do shit to Ares until he was ordered too.

So until he had a chance to, you mean

fantasy stories shouldn't be a thing because no one ever fucked up dragons

Ngl I will still be happy if I were to find out that somebody else killed my target instead, nigga I’ll probably would make that person my best fucking friend or fuck her if she was to turn out to be an chick and have the both of us piss on that cunt grave and live happy ever after or some shit :D

Stop your bullshitting Sancho you little bitch, nobody's buying it

You can do that in KCD2.

Kill Toth

Godwin asks you how you feel

One option has Henry go "I feel great!"

He spent 10 years doing nothing and never asked to kill Ares. It obviously wasn't a priority for him.

Yeah, and doing absolutely nothing about it would make you feel infinitely worse because then you would have regret and shame on top of grief.

Or you go to therapy and deal with all three rather than permanently inflicting yourself with one in exchange for maybe removing the other two.

"Revenge bad" plotlines only work if the protagonist loses alot more to get his revenge in the first place. Which wouldn't necessarility equate to "revenge is bad" in most cases but rather the MC's self-destructive, single minded pursuit and disregarding either his health, friends, family or mental stability. And that can apply to fucking anything. Its some entirely new Jewish movement to portray the act of seeking personal retribution against your enemies as some sort of evil thing. You have entire mythos and stories about heroes getting revenge, but NOW its bad?

Standing up for yourself is bad, chud
Let the government do it for you in a fair way

Or you go to therapy

Yes yes you must forgive the evil piece of shit who ruined your life yes that will bring peace yes that will be $800

for maybe removing the other two

maybe

No, it absolutely will, and it's justice on top of that.

every slight against you was done knowingly by someone evil

they ruined your life forever, yes yes

happiness is out of your hands

that person stole your own mind from you

Mental illness.

Trying to make a "revenge bad" story is like trying to make a story about how winning a bunch of money and living a great and comfortable life with no stress or worries after is bad and you should just burn the money because having lots of money bad.
It's fucking retarded.

You can't, the entire premise is outdone by that one scene where Lightning slaps Fang.

Hang on, is that what people are complaining about here? From where I see it people just want all revenge to be valid because if someone pissed you off they must deserve what you want to do to them.

based gun x sword enjoyer, what a wild ride

Guess what kid: myths aren't the same as real life. All you have to do is look at history to see examples of people getting their revenge and ruining their lives because of it.

Anon we're talking about someone doing something horrible to you, like killing a loved one. We're not talking about somebody inconveniencing you and you having a nigga moment or something.
I'm not sure why you're trying to conflate the two but that makes you suspicious.

And I suppose there are no instances of that revenge working out. Nope, doesn't happen in real life.

You know why this is the ultimate cup of bullshit forced down peoples throats. Because the real world knows that death is the ultimate final solution and if you kill not just the person but everyone around them the problem is solved. BUT THAT'S THE CRIMINAL WAY OF THINKING!! That right there trying to ignore this type of solution exists is childish and trying to paint your story in any other way is stupid.

Of course there are. The human experience is a varied and wonderful thing. That's why we can have both "revenge good" and "revenge bad" stories.

In fact. The reputation that you fucked up an entire organization guarantees your future safety via intimidation. It's only when a loose string exists that you get 'muh part 2 revenge story' but realistically people are so thorough that shit is for the fiction books.

Impressive how they didn't pussy out at the end. I feared they would

Realistically, how should "Revenge Bad" storylines be fixed?

Don't make the core gameplay loop killing jobbers.

It's really that simple. Or, have it so that the character realizes that he enjoys violence like with Spec Ops: The Line or Metal Gear Rising.

Yes, let's just murder everyone so every problem is solved and nothing bad can ever happen again.

THE CRIME IS LIFE, THE SENTENCE IS DEATH!

Honestly this. Rules for thee but not for me. Hey look everyone after my first game how smart I am. Fucking sad how people devolve.

People mock it endlessly but Jack letting 'er rip was so fucking kino

Ngl I feel like they shouldn’t have never killed Joel and made the game about Joel and Ellie again and just had the sequel be a brand new story with Abby begin the new protagonist in the Last of Us universe or never made Abby and just had the sequel continue to be Joe and Ellie and had Joe die of old age or so some shit

This brought to mind an interesting point.
What's the best way to mechanically express the psychological impact of killing someone? Some people just cannot handle it.

Make them do it while simultaneously make you feel like there's no longer a point. The last of us kinda works from a narrative standpoint but not from a gaming standpoint, which is the ludo narrative dissonance we all know. When you get to Abby as you said you killed so many people and you're all blood crazed because the gameplay is good and all you kill are slaver cannibals trying to kill you. Sure you killed Abby's preggo friend (who should never have been there it was retarded) but it wasn't nearly enough. I get what they're going for and it can work for a movie but not a game like this.
The game should give you the choice or make you regret it. They should have made you play Abby first and make you kill Joel as a twist as to reverse the perspectives, and then frame Ellie as the enemy.

How much would you be willing to sacrifice to get revenge? Everything you have?

Having it be about completely new characters in a different location in the world was the way to go, but he was still butthurt about being tardwrangled the first time around and had to do his revenge bad story.

They are all bad actors, all killers because they kill to get what they want. The fuck you have an epiphany for when the source of trouble is at your fingertips. You snap that neck and go home the goal you set out for is complete. Sparring the one at the end makes you less of a murder hobo who went through a fucking field of people. Get over your pretentious drivel the PTSD isn't going to hit like how they want everyone too swallow.

What's the best way to mechanically express the psychological impact of killing someone?

Depends on the story and character you play.

Original Kratos in God of War 1-3 killed a lot of innocent people, but that's kind of the point of his character where he's losing touch in terms of valuing anything regarding humanity.

The truth is that the people writing for video games just aren't good enough at writing to do it.

There are no good stories that demonize revenge. Its called subversion like having Rick Sanchez critizie a happy nuclear family in a picnic because justin roiland knows hes going to die alone.

First post, worst post

Some things demand correction. It has a socially balancing aspect as well, where the risk of being brutally murdered in revenge will cause people from refrain to dabbling in adultery or egregious acts of cruelty

We're not talking about somebody inconveniencing you and you having a nigga moment or something.

95% of the pro-revenge posts read exactly like that to me. It sounds like people chomping at the bit for the moral right of way to curb stomp the guy who cut them off yesterday.
Or rather, they sound like they're conflating the level of revenge they'd apply to the gameplay (of course, you're free to dismember the random NPC that insulted your outfit) with the logic and scenario of the characters in the story.
Of course someone who would knowingly kill one of my loved ones is probably a horrible person and I'd want to go after them, at least beat the shit out of them.

Yeah maybe, but it still has to be done.

The only thing that would prevent me from seeking revenge is if it would put another loved one in danger. If my loved ones were safe, then I'd be willing to give up everything else.

Watched True Detective again recently. You have a shoot out in Season 2 that just shows how fucked up the scenario can turn out. Police trying to do their best shoot civs despite all the training. Bad guys that just do not give a shit and are murdering you down to the point ammo is running out. Give it a YT watch

read exactly like that to me

That's your problem, you're reading into something not being said

<=With MC fucking off to distant shores with his waifu.
Only true solution to revenge bad stories.
If you want play it straight than just have a BY THE ROOTS kind of revenge where everything ends with everyone dead.

Revenge bad as a story is always stupid because it has to go out of it way to portray them in a knee-jerk fashion otherwise it will have no argument to make if it presented it in a dish best served cold which usually is the way revenge actually does workout well.

"revenge bad" has been a thing for a long, long time

Show me some stories where revenge is shown in a positive light solely because it is revenge and not because the target of the revenge is generally a bad person and needs to be brought to justice, with revenge just being the motive of the one doing it.
I am SO curious what you people consider good writing.

oh shit, one minute too late

by acknowledging that revenge isnt bad, its the things you do in the name of revenge that are

ignoring friends

becoming more isolationist

neglecting yourself, not sleeping right to stay up spying or researching or w/e

hurting others who arent neccesarily involved but get tarred with the same brush

lacking a motivating goal after the revenge is done because it was such a big part of your life

addressing and talking about things like this and actually going into detail and philosophising = good
ignoring everything here and having your main character suffer no consequences and simply throw down their gun just before shooting the last 1 bullet in a story of 3000 bullets and saying 'REVENGE BAD AFTER ALL!' is literally so retarded a child wouldnt even come up with it when playing with action figures

Last of Us 2 did it dogshit because you just stop fighting cause uh you thought of Joel going "no!!!!!" and thats it

The best way to do it is to make the revenge go overboard and harm the innocent. Pull people who didn't deserve to get hurt or die get hurt or die by the hand of the one getting revenge. They kinda went with this with the preggo friend but she was a cunt and the child was still unborn. Still this child was the embodiment of innocence but the game doesn't really do anything with it. Lev should have been another victim imo. Make Ellie kill Lev out of rage, and then see Abby destroyed and empty over her friend's body. It would have felt devastating.

myths aren't the same as real life

So you think that because someone in a myth is/faces some larger than life thing that the general situation is different? Just change god/hero with king and dragon/demon with other king and the general structure is the same.

All you have to do is look at history to see examples of people getting their revenge and ruining their lives because of it

Just as many if not more examples of it not and them living well and prospering.

Great taste. Love that book

If my loved ones were safe

But what if your loved ones are the ones you're avenging? That's the most obvious reason to be seeking revenge. What if you get your revenge and you realize that it hasn't actually accomplished anything, it didn't bring back the ones you've lost, and your pain hasn't gone away? Sure, it'll feel good at first, but once that good feeling is gone, what'll be left? Do you want your entire life to revolve around revenge? Do you think that's what your lost loved ones would want for you?

you see there are plenty of examples in real life where drug use actually leads to happiness. that's why we can't have any stories that show drugs are bad!

It would still be the right thing to do. Your life is already gone anyway, of course the trauma and damage would be terrible.

But refraining from revenge would ultimately doom you to even deeper despair due to inaction. At least you can close the book in that sense, equalize at least a little bit the scales.

They’re avenged and the faggot/faggots that hurt them can’t do it to anyone else. These generic copes have been shit for a while. No one thinks getting revenge will bring their loved ones back. It’s a way of gaining catharsis for loss as well as delivering justice to someone that has done wrong.

what'll be left

The rest of your life, but you can say that you did your duty and have shown that evil deeds don’t go unpunished.

Yeah, this exactly. It confuses me when people bring up "revenge bad" as a critique of a story about a character who chooses to stop trying to kill 100% of their problems. I thought the problem was when "revenge bad" somehow makes it harder to kill characters that are JUST FUCKING VILLAINS.

You should let the person who wronged you get away with it because... because you just SHOULD, okay?

can’t actually argue so he has to create a strawman

Why do you insist on doing this? If you can’t argue just don’t post anything.

retard advocating therapy and cuckoldery accusing anyone else of mental illness

please explain why giving someone 1k a week is better than just shooting some faggot in the head

what the fuck are you talking about? you dont need a story there is literal history you could look at to show revenge is bad, why dont you start with looking up "blood fueds"

Revenge bad will always be retarded because it's conceptually retarded. Revenge isn't bad. It is final. It is closure. The idea that it somehow isn't has always been a childish lie. It won't ever work because it will always feel wrong because it IS wrong.

Now you could pivot to reconciliation instead, but you would actually have to work for it, and the whole point of "revenge bad" stories is that they are explicitly lazy and low effort.

But what if your loved ones are the ones you're avenging?

If I've no more loved ones then yes, giving up everything for revenge is worth it

What if you get your revenge and you realize that it hasn't actually accomplished anything, it didn't bring back the ones you've lost, and your pain hasn't gone away?

No shit it won't bring them back. That's a stupid point to bring up and it's stupid every time it is brought up in revenge stories. Nothing will bring them back, it's about punishing those responsible.

Sure, it'll feel good at first, but once that good feeling is gone, what'll be left?

Nothing, only the knowledge that the person who did something terrible to you paid the price and got what they deserved. Doing nothing would leave you with nothing but emptiness and rage, getting revenge at least gives you the satisfaction and peace that those responsible were punished and did not get away with it

Do you think that's what your lost loved ones would want for you?

Irrelevant, but it is funny that you'd mention that because I've talked about this subject with my brother and he agrees with me and he'd do the same.

Not finishing the job and wiping out their entire tribe is just a mistake though. In a purely rational sense.

You finish the job and get your revenge by totally eradicating the enemy bloodline

So obsession then, why is this so hard for so called professionals writers to figure out? Fucking Melville got it down over a century ago.

you've been huffing too much gas.

Oldboy 2003 SK film

They’re avenged and the faggot/faggots that hurt them can’t do it to anyone else.

The merit of removing someone who is ready and willing to commit bad acts is the reason this narrative is worth celebrating. It doesn't matter whether they'd do it to only you or to an arbitrary subset of people that happens to include you. If they commit evil, they should be punished.
So long as you understand the operative part is "evil gets punished" and not "revenge is taken" it becomes clear that revenge is actually an uglier part of this equation, prone to going out of control and causing collateral damage. Far better for justice to be enacted without revenge whenever possible.

ad hominem

Why is it that all you have are logical fallacies? Can you not argue against there being cases where someone getting revenge worked out for them? Why do you need to do this?

The fines for shooting someone in the head are way worse

you see there are plenty of examples in real life where eating your vegetables actually leads to happiness. that's why we can't have any stories that show vegetables are bad!

Watch Dogs 1 was like that. Dude was even exciting about enacting even more justice in the future

If I endorsed that view then I would be endorsing my own death. My extended family are a bunch of assholes. So, purely rationally, no.

fines

this is bad because i say so

>ok please elaborate why

because someone else said so

if you dont have any original thoughts why do you take part in online discussions and pretend to have opinions on things?

Here, I'll write a story for you.

Anon once wanted to do a revenge, and then anon did the revenge. It was great! The end.

You may now begin your "noooooo that's not a REAL story" to justify that you don't like the theme by blaming something that has nothing to do with the theme.

I also advise you to watch it because Last of Us 2 wishes the writing was as good as this.

Realistically, how should "Revenge Bad" storylines be fixed?

the protagonist shouldn't murder billions to get to the villan
when he gets there the villan changed and is a better person now(the villan runs an orphanage or some shit, you get the idea)
the protagonist has to make the hard but correct choice of letting go to not be like the villan instead being better then them
from there you move on with your life and accept what happened

that or it will have to be a cautionary tale where he loses aLOT for the sake of revenge only for it to not be worth St the end, I.e the villan died already years ago, you were chasing a corpse, or something like that

”evil gets punished" and not "revenge is taken"

They both play into each other. They’re not some separate entity that hold different places on a moral spectrum. Revenge is not an inherently dark or evil thing to do/want. It is merely the act of making someone pay for what they have done.

uglier part of this equation, prone to going out of control and causing collateral damage

No that is obsession, which is not exclusive to the act of revenge but anything. Being stronger, gaining knowledge or wealth. That is what leads to callous and cold acts that go against moral bounds.

You can't fool me with the imitation reddit spacing, I know your game

fines

You're talking about fines. We are talking about a man's conscience and his immortal soul.

Revenge is absolutely demanded at certain points. You cannot flinch when it calls.

Your life is already gone anyway, of course the trauma and damage would be terrible.

Lots of people experience that trauma without letting vengeance consume them.

They’re avenged and the faggot/faggots that hurt them can’t do it to anyone else.

And what if those "faggots" have loved ones of their own, who want revenge against you? Do you want to perpetuate an endless cycle of revenge?

If I've no more loved ones then yes, giving up everything for revenge is worth it

So what, you'll just kill yourself when you're done?

SAAR HONOR KILLING DO VARY GOOD SAAR!!!!!

sure is third world in here

So basically Call of Juarez: Gunslinger?

I'm talking about the mass slaughter of dozens of an opposing tribe after the situation deteriorated, with killings and counter-killings now spiraling out of control.

The reasonable thing to do is a good old fashioned mass murder of every single opposing tribesman and absorption of their women and children.

This is what humanity is made of, this is how we always have solved these issues (until the total state took over the duty of violence).

In the game setting, total genocide is, sadly, the only remaining option for prosperity. The first side that picks genocide will be a winner.

get accused of not having original thoughts

response is to parrot incorrect newfag bait

you can commit suicide now

"I saw the devil" did that

the same people crying about immigrants have views on revenge that are incompatible with western civilization

curious

So what, you'll just kill yourself when you're done?

Possibly, possibly not. Though I would be far more likely to kill myself if I just let it lie and did nothing about it. The knowledge that those responsible are dealt with would leave me in a better state to move on. Catharsis isn't something to be underestimated.

You're still talking about consuming vengeance. Its nonsensical.

You must be a woman, the way you think and write. What's wrong with you otherwise? Why keep clinging to inaction as a "solution"? To what problem? If you just do nothing, you win? In what reality

And what if those "faggots" have loved ones of their own, who want revenge against you

I mean it all depends on what the faggot did, if I found out my dad was a serial killer I wouldn’t be inclined to go after a guy who killed gin for killing his loved one. I would be sad since it’s my dad but I would understand that he did something fucked up and the consequences of his actions caught up with him. But if some retard wants to avenge their scumbag relative their they can die to.

Do you want to perpetuate an endless cycle of revenge

It’s only an endless cycle of there are people left to care. If I don’t have anyone or they run out of people to send then ultimately the cycle ends then and there.

Here, it's your favorite food. Feel better now?

all the anons saying revenge is good

it's unrealistic at best, you're wasting your life to ruin somone else's and they probably don't know about you, you'll get angry and spiral for the worst while they moved on having forgotten you, and when you are able to get vengeance irl society at large won't kowtow so you can easily get jailed or the like.
I understand wanting justice, that's reasonable but revenge is absolutely bad

Meant for

le loved ones le perpetuating

if you raise a child that goes on to rape someones child, kill someone in a drunk driving incident, etc etc, you absolutely CANNOT be upset if they get killed as a consequence and if you do then you can happily be killed too as you clearly didnt learn your lesson as a parent

They’re not some separate entity that hold different places on a moral spectrum.

Someone evil can take revenge on someone good. Someone good can take revenge on someone evil. So evil being punished is in fact entirely decoupled from revenge being taken.
Yes, this means not all revenge is evil, and I'm fine with that. You're allowed to have revenge as a motive in your story. Characters are allowed to find meaning in vengeance even. Just don't let yourself fall into the trap of assuming vengeance is automatically just.

You have been tricked into thinking that revenge and justice are mutually exclusive concepts.

Western civ does not function with mass immigration.
The compact between state and citizen is already irreparably broken, and justice does not exist. Hence, the *need* for plebeian DIY justice to move into the utter vacuum of the institutional justice framework.

Just because you do not care about the fabric of society does not mean everyone is on the same page.
True to form, you'd rather do nothing and allow it to deteriorate further into nothing.

people unironically praising and enjoying the cuman shit in KCD 2 was pure cancer. piece of shits raided your town, murdered everyone, raped and murdered the women
and youre expected to sit there like A FUCKING BITCH and cheer them on because they insult the king for not getting paid for said murders

what the fuck delusion and mental illness causes some FAGGOT to write that shit

here consider these extremely specific scenarios

see revenge is bad (absolute statement)

except theres plenty of scenarios where you dont waste your life and they do remember and know what they did and society agrees with what you did, so that would mean revenge good (absolute statement) by your own logic

I'm not saying you should do nothing. I'm saying that you shouldn't let revenge become your entire life, because what you get out of it won't be nearly as much as what you put in. Some people do incredibly stupid, self-destructive shit in the name of vengeance. Do you really want to be one of those people?

You kill everyone related to Abby, you may as well finish the job as killing her will lead to nobody else being around to seek revenge against you.

There was some documentary about gang wars or some third war stuff that showed how stories should do it. The interview went like this

that group killed my brother

so I joined the fighting effort to get revenge for my bother

I killed one of them I felt good at finally getting revenge on them for my brother

then I thought if I could avenge my brother killing one of them then it would avenge him better if I killed two or three of them

and so I killed more to get better and more revenge for my brother

and as I killed more I always came to the same conclusion that I could kill even more and the revenge and justice for my brother would grow bigger and stronger

those people never should have killed my brother

They're making society better. There's also a slim chance of them getting away with it.

Its a service to all, and greatly appreciated when it happens irl

Someone good can take revenge on someone evil

No, because at that point they’re standing in favor of someone’s evil deeds. If someone does something fucked up and you try to stand in the way of them being punished or punish someone for stopping them then ultimately you’re no longer simply a bystander but an active player in their malice.

evil being punished is in fact entirely decoupled from revenge being taken

It’s not in the scenario in which I presented but since you can’t argue that you need to present a cop out.

don't let yourself fall into the trap of assuming vengeance is automatically just

That’s not what I was arguing it’s that revenge wasn’t some bad thing.

This is the primary reason the "revenge bad" theme doesn't work in tlou. If it doesn't lead to a cycle of revenge, have significant collateral damage or ruin the life of the person seeking revenge than its hard to say its "bad". And the last point is the one they try to hit home with but that just doesn't work when the player has a different feeling about it than the character.

Some people are just wired differently. I think some of these posters are women, and some are low T males that have repressed their violent side since forever.

Not in tune with their anger and capacity for violence and all that

Right, and no one who was alive when the gang wars started is alive today. It's a vicious cycle of "they hurt us, so we hurt them, so they hurt us, so we hurt them", generations of people who could've done so much more with their lives throwing themselves into a meat grinder. And eventually, no one even remembers how it all began, what they're fighting and dying for. They're just doing it because it's what they've always done. Seems like a pointless existence to me. You can't even call it a life.

Wasn't Abby already dying from starvation anyway? she was restrained, literally could have just let her rot there. This revenge story and it's setup were all retarded.

Make it believable.
You can't just kill hundreds of people then suddenly "le revenge bad" and refuse to kill 1 more person.
If the player didn't kill a single person throughout the whole game, then it would be believable to not kill the final boss too.

Not really. It doesn't show how far into depravity he HAD to delve to get it. It showed how far he WANTED to delve into depravity. He could have taken his revenge in the first few minutes of the film and it would have been over but he wanted to torture the guy relentlessly instead. And he doesn't rejoice in his revenge. He breaks out in tears because of how wrong it all went.

A feud is this way: A man has a quarrel with another man, and kills him; then that other man's brother kills him; then the other brothers, on both sides, goes for one another; then the cousins chip in -- and by and by everybody's killed off, and there ain't no more feud. But it's kind of slow, and takes a long time.

Or you could just kill them all and then assimilate those who may remain thus wiping them off the face of the planet.

People always get revenge and justice confused.

retarded lefty virtue signals so hard he ends up being accidently racist episode 10210191241

how about you just consider that people LIKE killing people

By that logic ANYTING AND EVERYTHING can be bad.

Drinking Coffee is bad on the person seeking it, if that becomes their personality

Having children is bad on the person seeking it, if that becomes their personality

Playing with puppies is bad on the person seeking it, if that becomes their personality

yes thats exactly right you 1 dimensional faggot

Revenge feels really, really good when it's something that doesn't take over your life. A state of moral indignation which can lead to the highest of euphorias.

>Someone good can take revenge on someone evil

No, because at that point they’re standing in favor of someone’s evil deeds.

How is a good person taking revenge on an evil person defending the evil deeds? What? Have you misunderstood something?

It’s not in the scenario in which I presented

Fucking and? Why does only your scenario matter when we're arguing about the morality of revenge in a general sense?

That’s not what I was arguing it’s that revenge wasn’t some bad thing.

Revenge is neither bad nor good. Because "revenge" refers to both the motive and the action. The act of revenge can be good or bad, the motive revenge is frequently damaging but in good faith doesn't have to be. Badly written media just can't show that damage and has to contort itself around figuring out how to show revenge is bad without giving anyone enough depth for it to actually be bad.

So you just want to keep escalating until you're alone in a silent, blood-soaked world? Because that's the logical conclusion of your mindset. Sooner or later you'll stop seeking revenge against specific people and stark seeking revenge against the entire world. If you're completely consumed by the burning need for vengeance, what will be stopping you from crossing that threshold?

drug addiction

pedophilia

zoophillia

wtf do you mean these are bad??

you yourself characterised them as barely human animals so yes they can live in a blood soaked world, thats according to YOU

So kill the family too if their potential mental anguish bothers you so much.
Quit being such a hand-wringing faggot.

how about you just consider that people LIKE killing people

So just admit that you don't actually give two tugs of a dead dog's cock about "avenging your loved ones" or "doing the right thing" and you really just want an excuse to kill people.

"Revenge Bad"

Pic unrelated, I assume? Because that's not the theme of TLoU2, unless you're grossly oversimplifying it for the sake of attacking a caricature of the game, instead of the game itself.

You wouldn't do that, would you anon? You have some integrity and more brain cells than a bath tub sponge, right?

Aeschylus thought that justice could not simply be a never ending chain of revenge and he was far more of a man that I.
But vidya writers don't deserve that sort of comparison. Maybe it is harder to do in vidya when half your audience assume anything your protagonist does is morally righteous by virtue of them having controlled it. Or maybe Neil Druckman is a fucking hack.

RDR2 did it right; you get the satisfaction of vengeance but the game makes it clear that if John hadn't gone and rampaged through Micah's gang then Edgar Ross wouldn't have been able to track him down and thus the events of RDR1 and John's inevitable death.

You are relating retaliatory murder with having kids anon

Berserk is a great "revenge bad" story because it doesn't explicitly trying to tell you if it's bad or not. From every point of view Guts has every right to avenge himself and all other people betrayed by Griffith, but as the story progresses it gets more complicated. Is Guts doing it to avenge himself or for Casca and the Band of the Hawk? Could he sacrifice all the new bonds he gained for the revenge? Would he still try to take revenge even if it will hurt Casca? Is Guts destined to be the next skull knight, wondering forever trying to catch Griffith? If Guts can just stay in the Fairy Island and move on with his life together with Casca, is it even worth it to continue chasing Griffith?

Of course all of this was immediately destroyed by the continuation of the manga after Miura's death.

But vidya writers don't deserve that sort of comparison.

Correct. Never ever compare Aeschylus to the garbage that is vidya writing again.

How is a good person taking revenge on an evil person defending the evil deeds

I misread that and thought it said “for” an evil person.

Fucking and

It’s what I’m arguing, I’m not going to go for something else just because you can’t hang with it.

Revenge is neither bad nor good

Revenge can be good or bad depending on the motive, in the scenario I presented it was good however someone avenging someone that did awful shit is bad.

Jesus stop lecturing it's like you have no fucking clue how Europe conquered territories or how America took the land from Native Americans. Fucking tool read a history book.

So you just want to keep escalating until you're alone in a silent, blood-soaked world

Or your enemies are dead/pacified and you can live your life.

You have to be wronged for it to be revenge. If they deserve your revenge then what they do in response is not revenge. It's reprisal.

I'm just asking questions. It's called the Socratic method.

The morals of Last of Us are: Do not trust women and leave nobody alive.

half your audience assume anything your protagonist does is morally righteous by virtue of them having controlled it

Let's not give Cuckmann any more leeway than he deserves, it's a bigger problem than vidya. But it absolutely does apply harder to vidya.

Until your enemies' loved ones come seeking vengeance, and the wheel starts turning again. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind and all that.

we're talking about other people in a scenario you created about gang wars getting so out of hand that they last over 80 years and no one alive today remembers the beginning, which YOU concluded with 'such a pointless existance' and i said 'its only pointless if you consider killing pointless which some people don't'

you have literally been as dishonest as possible all thread, please commit suicide tonight

Neil this

Druckman that

He really shat in your morning cereal, didn't he?

Anyone who defends the evil are evil too and so should also be eradicated.

I literally just posted an example of how that didn’t happen. That woman took down the people that killed her husband and ruled long enough for her son to take the throne. She got her revenge and lived her life. Stop coping.

NEXT GUY

Yet the current world has the answers readily available to you if you were roundly educated. What TLOU is trying to be is a very poor attempt at looking into war from a fags perspective. But when you deal with the themes of death and revenge the story has been written so many times throughout history for them to stick with their typical 'subvert expectations' it's all marketing bullshit. Everyone has a clear disagreement with the story because contrary to the story they tell reality does not correlate with their fiction. It's an obvious oversight because they were in a bubble and no one told the director his overall vision had flaws in it. They still push it out to the masses and become enraged why aren't you buying into it! WE CREATED THE FIRST ONE!!! fuck off

misread

Oh lol, no we're fine then.

Revenge can be good or bad depending on the motive

... just the motive? No, there's always the possibility that more context will reveal an initially noble revenge to be worth reconsidering. It gets less likely the longer you go without any hints of further depth, though.

it completely invalidates the road of death she carved to get there

by not ultimately fulfilling her goal, and giving up her wish for revenge, it actually invalidates all their deaths and makes them even more pointless

I want you to go to the nearest police station and say that

Spoken like a true extremist.

Villain kills someone

Just consider it a random bad incident, like a freak weather problem, and move on.

What's so hard about that? Just move on with your life.

As was stated above, and I even showed you the graph, that genetic research has shown *this was the primary way in which conflict was solved in prehistoric times*, and this is obviously what we would devolve to once we become tribesmen again (like the groups in tlou obviously are).

It puts an end to feuding. Stops the retarded oneupmanship and small killing and tragedies here and there. You do this once, and it's done and dusted.

Its the most rational decision after a certain threshold has been passed.

KCD2 is funny

My ghost parents are proud of me

I've lied, whored, stolen and killed people I could absolutely not have killed, many of them wholly undeserving and only for my own amusement

But I chose the "good" thing to do in a couple of story scenes so they are proud of me :)

Every time man. These "cutscene" games are so silly.

are you talking philosphy? POLICE!!!!

do we get actual karens here or are trannies just this retarded

yes if you shoot 2999 bullets and kill 2999 people in the hopes of killing x person, if you get to x person and dont kill them that BY DEFINITION means those 2999 had no reason to die
seriously why dont you just fuck off back to the website you came from if you're literally going to virtue signal so hard it means you will argue with the passage of time and whether something did or didnt happen

But that’s the thing if information comes to light that the person you’re after did it for a justified reason then yeah, but we already covered that. The issue with a lot of these stories is that they don’t do that. They usually just show the guy with a family and try to build up empathy. But that fails since it shows that this dude has a family of his own yet didn’t think that your loved one didn’t. Now a way that could change is if the guy that killed your loved one was doing it to stop him from doing something fucked up, in which case again yeah that’s fine.

niggas knew unchecked vigilante revenge was bad like 4000 years ago but you third world niggas still arguing about it lmao

"Revenge bad" plotlines only work if the protagonist loses alot more to get his revenge in the first place. Which wouldn't necessarility equate to "revenge is bad" in most cases but rather the MC's self-destructive, single minded pursuit and disregarding either his health, friends, family or mental stability

You just described the game to a t. And yet you're still seething about it... ?

get revenge

don't kill the person, but cripple the fuck out of them

This is how you do it.

black people turn your city into detroit

just consider it a random bad incident, like a freak weather problem, and move on

HOLY FUCK I FINALLY UNDERSTAND RETARDED LEFTIES NOW, THEY LITERALLY THINK LIKE THIS UNIRONICALLY

They don't actually care about revenge. They're just sick of wearing their human masks.

You say that as if checked vigilante revenge wasn’t something that was done. The Mesopotamian had revenge laws just for shit like this.

It's not even historical. It happens in our current lives to a petty degree with 'cancel culture' and just dealing with others in politics. It is all related to the art of war because what the themes ultimately are is conflict. The biggest disagreement is can someones moral compass be brought back to bearing despite being a murderer through the absolution of forgiveness of the person who took the most from you.
This shit was trying to be something like a poor man's Heart of Darkness fuck the 2nd game really showed how pretentious as fuck they are and thinking they were creating something remotely similar.

Everything you described is quite frankly a skill issue and not revenge issue.

if your bros arent there with you then they were never your bros to begin with

look above

bad long term planning

skill issue and bad planning

discipline issue

You didn't proved that revenge is bad, you're proven most people are shit at revenge. Not that it should surprise anyone since paleto principle applies to everything.

Yeah? Just leave? Might as well imagine that a volcano came up, shit happens.

Difference is in ye olde days they put up gallows and publicly hanged the fucker for all to see. Justice existed and so prevented revenge.

ok and please explain how even up until the 1900's two consenting adults could enter a duel and kill one another without anyone passing judgement on them? seems to directly contradict your bullshit!! weird!!

I really appreciate Demon Slayer for never pussying out of the core desire to punish and eradicate evil being the driving force and ultimately cool and good.

Especially when Muzan pulled that garbage cope you posted. It was hilarious. Invigorating

Laws only benefit those with power moron

A common problem with RPGs.

You can nuke NCR and Legion in NV but then there's still a scripted reputation reset where all transgressions are forgiven. You'd think launching a nuclear strike would not be so easily forgiven.

You didn't proved that revenge is bad, you're proven most people are shit at revenge.

yeah exactly thats alot more interesting than ''but if i kill you... i AM you...'' i dont disagree at all

I'm not here to defend TLOU2 or anything, Christ, I've just seen "le revenge bad" get whipped out about any game wherein a character chooses to even so much as delay acting on a personal grudge for emotional gain.

You dumb nigger it's the pareto principle not paleto.

don't kill the person, but cripple the fuck out of them

Yeah

I'm simply talking about going the distance and finishing the job, wiping out a tribe and otherwise beat them down so much they'll never be a problem ever again.

how about they leave instead and if they refuse they can leave this plane of existance

You can't just will all bad things to go away, what's important is learning to live with bad things happening. It's called Stoicism, maybe look it up?

Realistically, how should "Revenge Bad" storylines be fixed?

pour me some wine lad

The trope itself is obnoxious so people are wary for any sign of it. It tends to just be empty lecturing that misses the actual lesson being put forth which is not about revenge but obsession. Take Honest Hearts for example since I’ve see that be compared to the TLOU2. It’s not about revenge, revenge is a key aspect of Joshua Grahams character but the real threat is his obsession with it and Caesar. The best ending had you convincing him to let go of that and live his life, showing mercy but at the same time willing to fight when the need arises.

Yeah I agree with you. My point was more add on that these themes are recognizable in modern days.

Revenge isn't bad, and has be artificialy blasted into media for decades. Violence and revenge are good and the only ones who disagree are retarded or the ones who are in a position to be beheaded.

you cant just will bad things away

right which is why the 2nd half of my sentence existed
its not stoic to willfully be shit all over and is actually the exact opposite of stoic, stoic is still being able to identify and fight against problems even if the entirety of society has been brainwashed

you're literally the dad of murdered white teens who 'forgive the killer' and literally run their gofundme page for them, and you're calling yourself stoic, seriously phone your parents, apologise, and then commit suicide tonight

To show mercy to your enemy is a noble, Christ-like act, however none of the narratives today that employ "revenge bad" ever portray the weight of such a decision, nor do they portray any kind of higher motive for making it. That's the bigger problem. It makes the character that refuses to take revenge look like a coward or a fool.

I remember everyone I've killed

It's not an everyday thing

Don't you?

I already am. But a man shouldn't be unmoved when the situation demands correction.

Also, don't pivot so easily. You really debate like a cunt.

That’s less out of them liking you and more acknowledging you as an asset that they need to work with out of necessity.

I am not literally him, you are literally strawmanning though.
Seems like you've misunderstood Stoicism completely, do you rage against the rain too?

but then if that is what they want to go for it is even worse as they have to have already done all of this to be in the situation to get their revenge and then spare the person.
that would mean getting all the bad of revenge and none of the good.

revenge bad is because if you get revenge on someone then others want revenge on you and it makes for a never ending cycle
if you are okay with people coming at you for revenge, then revenge is not bad.

You're the one who follows some incredibly bleak mindset that invalidates people's ability to overcome grief in other ways than just murder and it's pretty telling you need to exaggerate to get your point across

Well at the end of the day not killing someone that has done awful things and will continue isn’t smart. It’s like having the devil stand before you and you wield a great weapon which can strike him down. Why would you not end him for all that he has done? It is not some grace sin as it is prophesied that he will fall anyway.

I could write a better ending for Last of Us 2 in less than five minutes.

This was fine. Abby letting her live (again) was the fucking dumb part. Abby was already bit here, Ellie gave her an even worse outcome than death.

If you start thinking that you "need" to act when a situation "demands" "correction" you are already letting it live rent-free in your head and completely failing, you aren't taking control, you are just being used by it. Try to bend like a reed instead of being an unmoving tree, you'll live longer without all that stress.

The story you've described sounds like it should have gotten endless complaints about it being "revenge bad". I don't consider that to be a fair way to view stories, that's why I generally argue revenge is indeed bad.

cycle of violence

Someone is in the wrong, and the person who is in the right should kill until there's no one left to chimp out.

It has nothing to do with overcoming grief.
You lack something fundamental, which causes you to talk around the fundamental issues, over and over.
Not everything is about the "self improvement/self help 101" book shit you're cribbing every single talking point from.

Are you a woman?

Completely irrelevant and nothing comes out of that. You're trying to headcanon a gotcha so it doesn't feel as shitty as it is.

1/3 of the game is spent with a fag

another 1/3 is spent with a tranny next to you

the last 1/3 is unskippable long as fuck interactive walking cutscenes

BRA FCKING VO

I just explained why it wasn’t. But I see you need to double down without actually giving a counter.

headcanon what? they were tied up because they were bitten. ellie knows theyre bitten cause the prisoners told her right before.

It has nothing to do with overcoming grief

In the context of TLoU2 it absolutely does, it's grief and guilt that pushes Ellie to seek revenge. If you want to talk about grief and punishing injustice then, ironically, Abby is the one who gets to claim that "moral standpoint"

That ain't bad

I mean she stabbed Abby in the chest, there's a good chance that turns into a disability.

Hell the fact that it happened in the ocean on a sandy beach after Abby had been starved nearly to death should be death sentence in itself since itll get infected.

You can talk yourself into not doing anything, with such impressive mental gymnastics.
Doesn't change the point that at some points men need to defend. And a grave insult and transgression needs to be answered. Otherwise you're simply a níðingr, a man one simply cannot trust to do anything, who won't keep to his word, totally unreliable and a liability who should be excluded from society.

What pushes her to seek revenge is that the game is poorly written. She shouldn’t have been mad at Joel since she would have to have been a retard to actually believe him. And if she was deluding herself then ultimately she’s just mentally unstable given Joel couldn’t lie in a more obvious way than he did at the end of the first game.

The truth is any kind of hardline messaging just doesn't work in video games.
Too often the player will have a totally different take on the situation than the character they are supposed to be controlling. Good games give the player options, even if they aren't what the dev/writer/whatever agree with.

And I am telling you that unless you've left out a part of the explanation, the only reason there wasn't endless "revenge bad" complaints was luck. It sounds like the best ending is abandoning the pursuit revenge to escape the obsession and pain it comes with. That sounds like "revenge bad" to Anon Babble.

Are you a woman? Answer the question.

We are also talking about the overall issue, as you well know, and you avoided that point, again.

No, they're talking about Ellie being bit at that point.

She's bit!

That's a misunderstanding of comic continuity. Joker is thwarted, Batman saves everyone and Joker goes to jail. That is the end of the story.
This idea only exists because the hundred iterations of the story get conflated together as if they're on the same timeline.

Joel's last night before getting his head bashed in with a golf club was spent finding out that the person who replaced your daughter, the person you saved by destroying a potential vaccine that could have saved the world, was a fucking dyke

cruel world

Social vilification as a rationale for action is really good, yes. Nothing bad will come out of that, in fact, you should let societal norms dictate all of your actions.

So when are you cutting your dick off? What are you, a coward?

On the other hand, because there's so many different runs, I'm pretty sure there's at least one iteration of Batman poorly written enough that it actually DID do this.

Have you not played HH? Or are you unaware of the story? Because he very much gets revenge just not against the guy that he’s after since he’s out of reach. In the end he cripples the tribe that destroyed his him and slaughtered his people. He stands facing their leader and is going to execute him. But he can be convinced to not do it as it will set a bad example for the tribes and just lead him down into more obsessive and fucked up behavior ultimately leading to him reverting to his old fucked up behavior.

abandoning the pursuit revenge to escape the obsession

No it’s abandoning the obsession. The want is still there but it’s not some all consuming thing. Why do you ignore the part where I said that?

Was it really destroyed by new writer's malice though? Was there any indication that Grifith, Godhands or Demons in general would just leave Guts and his party in the fairy island and never ever EVER fuck with them ever again?

If Ellie is in the right then so was Abby. If Abby is in the right, so is Ellie.

Societal norms are informed by human biology and psychology. Do not have incest. Do not have sex with animals. Do not live life as a Niding.

You cannot actually trust a man that simply takes grave wounds to his honor on the chin. Can you fight beside him? Can you deal in business with such a man? One that allows others to trample over him?
What happens with our shared culture if we keep allowing it to happen?

You're arguing from the standpoint that tradition and human inventions since before the 1960s were simply invented wholesale out of nothing, and as such they carry no meaning.

Its an arrogant, ignorant position, and further proves you don't have the necessary frameworks to even have this discussion. You should leave.

It’s social vilification for inaction. If you have a role then you need to fulfill your duty and take responsibility. Be it chieftain, commander, father, brother. We all have our roles, being a coward isn’t going to solve anything.

empty statement with zero elaboration

Come The Fuck On.

murders all her friends

including one that was preggo

crying just take him and go

ellie is now what she is most scared of

god this game fucking sucks

You should leave because you are arrogant

The irony is palpable, oh, you sweet summer child. Maybe eventually you will grow out of your phase and learn that you can't pick and choose norms to build the fantasy in your head. You have to take them all at once.

Exactly, it's just what we see today in society with only a different word behind it. Vilification of inaction is the best way to guilt-trip anyone malleable retard, see: the white feather campaign. Using a grungy old word to describe basic behavior is just trying to romanticize behaviour that the same now as it has always been.

What is there to elaborate. If killing someone who killed a loved one is morally correct then abby was morally correct to kill joel and ellie would have been morally correct in killing abby. If it isn't then neither of them were.
Of course it doesn't matter since they are women and incapable of moral action anyway.

out of necessity

That's never explained either.

The Courier doesn't ever really accomplish anything that would lead to either side thinking "Oh, this person is just so absolutely fucking amazing and essential that we HAVE to get them on our side no matter what they've done in the past."

And when you just say "No." they just go "Okay." and start trying to kill you so so much for your "necessity".

Stop trying to make excuses for what is just plain a badly written game.

It's easy. Just have vidya writers actually read pic related.

Have you not played HH?

No, I haven't, sorry. I just had your description to go off of.
Even with your further elaboration, my gut tells me this is "revenge bad" by Anon Babble standards. In the end, this may just be me being bitter over threads I used to like being overrun by retards.

No it’s abandoning the obsession.

... by choosing not to act on it anymore and leave it solely as a thought.

Why do you ignore the part where I said that?

You said "still willing to fight when the need arises", nothing about "and he still wants to kill even more people".

Whoah, that post came out looking like ass. I need to be more careful when using the auto-dictation speech-to-text function on my treadmill.

gut tells me this is "revenge bad" by Anon Babble standards

Stop being a child. Just because you don’t like your shitty trope being called out doesn’t mean you can just start labeling shit without actually knowing it. All that does is show you’re a hypocrite

by choosing not to act on it anymore and leave it solely as a thought.

He’s still fighting and killing Legionaries when they threaten him, he’s just not letting the hate consume him and his obsession change him.

You said "still willing to fight when the need arises", nothing about "and he still wants to kill even more people".

Do you think he doesn’t want to kill the people he fights? Especially when not given a choice?

why won't someone think of the poor murderers who like to kill?

of course you're a retarded direction brained mongoloid. only someone like you could write something so stupid and not even realize it

Vilification of inaction is the best way to guilt-trip anyone malleable retard

If you let your kid die then you’re a shitty parent, if you let your house go into disrepair you’re a shitty home owner, if your let your kingdom get fucked up you’re a shitty ruler. These things shouldn’t be ignored especially when it comes to social interaction and deals. Trust is an important thing and if you show you can’t be trusted then no one should have to if they don’t want to.

the white feather campaign

False equivalence, WWI was not a conflict that directly threatened the existence of the U.S. while not looking after your family and home and preventing/fighting threats is.

What is there to elaborate

The reason as to why Jerry was killed, which you know will kill your line of bullshit so you’re leaving it out for the sake of this cop out.

No, I haven't, sorry. I just had your description to go off of.

ok, why would you judge a story you haven't consumed off of an anon's description? that's fucking retarded

shoot retard who has caused you grief in the face

feel immensely better afterwords

sleep like a baby until you die 50 years later

wow yeah bleak mindset invalidating my ability to deal with grief, just because you are weak and have mindfucked yourself into always forgiving people who walk all over you doesnt mean everyone is like that

funny how the virtue signalling lefty retards always have the most totalitarian outlook on things, in this thread you have said that people from underdeveloped nations are animals leading empty lives, so much so that you HAVE to forgive them for anything they do because thats just who they are

An asteroid falls on your child

You are now a shitty parent

Wow!

Also,

This example is false because.. U.S.A, U.S.A!

What? Are you mentally ill? You can't imagine not eating breakfast? Why are you Americans so fucking stupid? So, if America reinstated the draft, you would gladly go? I am sure your greatest ally is glad to have such a patriot.

"guy" desperately seeks any justification he can find to do nothing

Its a bit embarrassing how hard he's coping about this.

Just admit your main sin is Sloth.

you don’t like your shitty trope being called out

Projection. I don't like the trope either. I just see people misidentify its presence more often than they correctly identify it. You seem to be arguing that people are in the right to misidentify it because it's better to cast out stories as being poorly written "revenge bad" shit than it is to accidentally read a "revenge bad" story I guess...? I don't get it. That's part of what I'm trying to find out here.

He’s still fighting and killing Legionaries when they threaten him

Thank you for fully clarifying, then. I don't see any issues here either. Once again, no problems with killing people who have ill intent.

Do you think he doesn’t want to kill the people he fights?

Do you think the answer should implicitly be "yes"? Or is this down to the character?

how dare you reply to my stupid hypothetical, didnt you know it was stupid!?!?! hahaha!

lefties incapable of getting a single win without also nuking themselves into oblivion

We are also talking about the overall issue

What overall issue, I'm not here to discuss your retarded "revenge bad" take, that's the job of a elementary school teacher. I'm here to expose morons like you talking shit about a game they never played

Are you a woman? Answer the question.

Take a step back then think long and hard how trying to press this subject makes you look

She shouldn’t have been mad at Joel since she would have to have been a retard to actually believe him. And if she was deluding herself then ultimately she’s just mentally unstable given Joel couldn’t lie in a more obvious way than he did at the end of the first game

Maybe she was shocked by the fact that it's coming from a guy who she obviously bonded with and who saves her life multiple times? Maybe the question would show up later in her life, especially she's early and often seen suffering from survivor's guilt?

711245137

No more (you)s, cunt. Try harder next time

Okay, wrath.

N-No I have a GOOD reason to be MAD!

Just wrath things. Maybe a bit of pride too for being so above this, you are so above this.

Amerimutt hurt for being called out

Literally the

Btw I'm a girl tee hee

Of the world.

How about you present your argument yourself so we have something to work with?

711245195

spends thread talking in general terms

pivot to talking specifics when you think you can get an advantage

Pussy tier. Also still not a relevant idea in sight - revenge still isn't about soothing the soul or healing. Its a necessity akin to a heavy duty.

Third time a smart anon has posted. Must be fucking embarrassing a whole gaming company never one mentioned this book to address the faults of their story

revenge is the ONLY WAY that guy will be punished for the evil thing he did to me

any story wherein revenge has a negative impact is on the side of EVIL GOING UNPUNISHED

it is my DUTY to undertake revenge for every slight against me

An asteroid falls on your child

So you’re just going to act obtuse now and pretend that you have no idea what I’m referring to when it comes to duty in order to avoid having to actually argue?

This example is false because.. U.S.A, U.S.A!

Looks like you were btfo and have to make strawmen to cope. Keep seething, it won’t make you less of a failure.

shoot retard who has caused you grief in the face

feel immensely better afterwords

sleep like a baby until you die 50 years later

None of that happens in the game

funny how the virtue signalling lefty retards always have the most totalitarian outlook on things, in this thread you have said that people from underdeveloped nations are animals leading empty lives, so much so that you HAVE to forgive them for anything they do because thats just who they are

I didn't say any of that, what does this gibberish have to do with the game's story and characters?

Jerry

Who? The game was boring so I stopped playing.

it feels weird how Anon Babble is filled with paper tigers who think the only options in life are "extreme doormat pacifist" and "TOTAL NIGGER DEATH" in response to injustice.
most of you guys would easily be drafted and sent to die for a cause you don't actually care about

then just kill them niggerfaggot?? its a fucking RPG for a reason

No, I'm only pointing out that oftentimes the thing that ruins something which you have responsibility over is absolutely out of your realm of control. It's a simple proposition.

I only referred to USA because that retard brought it up for absolutely no reason, amusingly enough.

Projection

“No u” isn’t going to work, I gave an actual reason as why it’s not the same and you can’t argue that.

I don't like the trope either

Your post hoc admission of this isn’t going to make that true just show you know you fucked up and have to cover your ass.

You seem to be arguing that people are in the right to misidentify

It’s not misidentification, you have yet to actually say why it’s revenge bad, and just keep repeating it.

Do you think the answer should implicitly be "yes"? Or is this down to the character

You tell me, you’re arguing it.

wow that over guy was right you really do flip flop between talking about the game and talking about revenge generally when it suits you

so far this thread you've been

dishonest

racist

low IQ

cuck

desperate

aggorant

everyone in this thread is still here simply because theyre watching just how far you are willing to lie on the internet just to appear like a good person even though your lying and dishonesty have, again, led you to calling people from developing nations barely human animals with pitiful existences

Maybe she was shocked by the fact that it's coming from a guy who she obviously bonded with and who saves her life multiple times

Why would she be shocked? Her entire playable section is about not just trusting people at face value. Not to mention she didn’t think to ask about Marlene in all that time?

you do realize it was simply Henry's own consciousness telling him all that right? Those magical parent moments weren't ''real'.
Guess thirdies cannot into subtlety.

Revenge feels good and it's jewish to pretend it doesn't. Otherwise, prison sentences wouldn't exist.

MGS3 and 4 did this

calls others pussy tier

is scared of properly replying to people

It doesn't matter, as then Henry is just mentally ill which is also funny.

I just did, Jerry was killed for a reason, but you’re just saying “no u” because you know that this is a big hurdle you can’t get past because it kills the entire argument.

The surgeon that was going to kill Ellie was Abby’s dad.

thats not mental illness bro

Itsa a ricky and morty reference

Yeah look I know it's been common-sense for literally thousands of years but a jew said it so no I believe the exact opposite (for clarity's sake this post is sarcasm for the sake of mocking Anon Babble posters)

Hallucinating your dead relatives to give you moralizing pep-talks after you murder, kill, pillage and plunder is as mentally ill as you can get.

context?

711245603

Starving you of what you so desire, the little dopamine -you-

No, I'm only pointing out that oftentimes the thing that ruins something which you have responsibility over is absolutely out of your realm of control

That’s not what is being argued and you know that, the topic is stigma for inaction, and random acts like a hurricane or an asteroid aren’t a result of inaction. You know that but since you can’t argue the topic you have to be dishonest.

I only referred to USA because that retard brought it up for absolutely no reason

Do you think the white feather campaign was exclusive to Europe? You’re aware that suffrage cunts were doing it in the states as well.

I gave an actual reason as why it’s not the same

The same as fucking what? You were the one who argued "well of course people are jumpy about it, it's a bad trope".

Your post hoc admission of this isn’t going to make that true

You genuinely believe the only opinions are "revenge good" and "revenge bad", don't you? All that pretending at nuance was just trying to look smart.

It’s not misidentification, you have yet to actually say why it’s revenge bad,

I said it's not revenge bad but I get the sense Anon Babble would insist it is. I don't believe it's revenge bad. Allow me to clarify that, first of all.
Secondly, because it has a character who chooses to refrain from completing their revenge to the best of their ability, and benefits from it emotionally. I would expect threads to be filled with people raving about how evil the target of revenge is and how he deserves it, ignoring that the choice wasn't about the deserving-ness of the kill at all.

You tell me, you’re arguing it.

... what? I'm asking you whether you think someone who's okay to fight should implicitly be okay to kill, or whether you made that assumption because of context specific to the character/game? Once again, I'm flying blind here.

revenge is sometimes good actually

>thread overtaken by rabid lefties who trip all over themselves and cant really make any counter arguments despite being 400 posts deep

have lefties gotten MORE or LESS rabid now that their entire ideology has fallen out of mainstream media completely? the whiplash must be insane you can hardly blame them

thats just your brain comforting you

You have left out the revenge part, dummy

revenge is sometimes good actually

Huh? I see a lot of

revenge is the only way bad people are punished

And

revenge is always good

But not much of that.

there isnt a single post in this thread that says revenge is the ONLY way retarded faggot, you can literally ctrl + f 'only' right now and it doesnt appear once in 45 results, fucking lying faggot no wonder your parents hate you

The same as fucking what

Playing dumb isn’t going to work. Unless you’re saying you actually forgot the topic of the argument and can’t intuit that I’m referring to revenge bad stories?

You genuinely believe the only opinions are "revenge good" and "revenge bad"

Your strawman isn’t going to make your statement not be a post hoc cope so I don’t know why you bother.

I said it's not revenge bad but I get the sense Anon Babble would insist it is

So you’re talking out of your ass because
1. Anon Babble isn’t a monolith
2. HH doesn’t get referred as that aside from one time when some fag was trying to bait.

Secondly, because it has a character who chooses to refrain from completing their revenge to the best of their ability

No, more just not getting obsessed with it. He lets go of the obsession not the want. But you can’t seem to grasp that despite it being said.

what? I'm asking you whether you think someone who's okay to fight should implicitly be okay to kill

If you’re “flying blind” why are you even trying to argue this? Why don’t you just educate yourself?

More, they used up all the subversion tactics and underhanded shit and created opposition that can spot their bullshit and doesn’t fall for nonsense. They have created their own worst enemy.

Different anon, I want to know why do you think Jerry was killed so I can arbitrarily decide if you're right or wrong

Again, you're talking to different people but instead prefer to conflate their arguments and then attack them from that angle

Why would she be shocked? Her entire playable section is about not just trusting people at face value

???

First of all she doesn't trust David at all, secondly, what you're saying isn't followed up in the segments that take place afterwards

ctrl + f "punish"

first result is a post insinuating that bad people escape punishment if not for revenge

there isnt a single post in this thread that says revenge is the ONLY way retarded faggot

That's what is saying, though

TF2 comic, old lady TRAPPED and BETRAYED person who she thought killed her parents which she doesn't even know since she's spent so long torturing him and extending her and his life with australium that she doesn't even remember anymore, she just remembers how much she fucking hates him and dragged out torturing him for as long as possible. She uses up the last of the australium just so she can gloat to his face one last time, then both die.

this is the first result:
it says revenge is A punishment and if you think someone recieving A punishment for their actions is bad, you think that because you are scared of people getting revenge on you

i guess you are just plain as day stupid rather than dishonest? which do you prefer?

thats me still, and it clearly is about sunken cost fallacy and makes no absolute statements that revenge is the ONLY punishment. infact it doesnt even say anything close to that, it says that you are invalidating previous revenge-murders if you dont get the actual main kill that all those previous murders are based around

you really are just stupid arent you

Different anon, I want to know why do you think Jerry was killed so I can arbitrarily decide if you're right or wrong

Did you not play the game? You’re just wasting time, you know why Jerry was killed and if not you shouldn’t be arguing this since you haven’t played the game and don’t know what’s going on.

First of all she doesn't trust David at all

She didn’t trust the guy she went with? Really?

what you're saying isn't followed up in the segments that take place afterwards

Yeah almost like she would learn from her experiences but apparently not.

Can't wait to see how he replies to this. I'm sure it will be extremely honest and self reflective.

whats with the retard talking to himself itt?

Is it really revenge if aren't certain that the person did it, this is just mental illness and usually revenge isn't dragged out that would work in favor for why it's bad

Unless you’re saying you actually forgot the topic of the argument and can’t intuit that I’m referring to revenge bad stories?

Then what the fuck is "it" in "it's not the same"??? HH? I thought you understood that I'm not claiming it actually IS "revenge bad".

Your strawman isn’t going to make your statement not be a post hoc cope

You seem to have come to the conclusion that I actually just think revenge is bad at all times because I'm not worked into a frothing rage at the very idea of a story MAYBE being "revenge bad" without a good justification.

So you’re talking out of your ass

Anon Babble isn't a monolith but look at this thread, how many people here actually understand when revenge can be good rather than just thinking revenge is implicitly good?

He lets go of the obsession not the want. But you can’t seem to grasp that despite it being said.

You said he holds back from making a final, important, pivotal kill when he absolutely could make it. That's more than letting go of the want. He refrains from committing a specific, climactic act of revenge because it would damage his mental state beyond repair and place him on a degenerative path. At least as you've described it so far.

If you’re “flying blind” why are you even trying to argue this? Why don’t you just educate yourself?

Because for some reason you've made it the lynchpin of your argument that people should be allowed to write anything off as "revenge bad" at the drop of a hat. It's terribly discourteous to hinge an argument so general on a topic so specific.

Revenge bad storylines work if a person seeks out revenge in a criminal and unjustifiable way. Because revenge against a murderer like in RDR1 is justified, murderers must be met with capital punishment to prevent them from committing further evil as the murderer has already killed themselves. But revenge that results in unjustified escalation to violence and the harming of innocents who had nothing to do with your injustice is when revenge is actually bad. However in TLOU2 there was never this great separation between Ellie and the player, we never saw Ellie's revenge becoming too dark to the point of no return, everybody was on board with Killing Abbie. The game needed to portray Ellie as a mentally ill revenge obsessed criminal that normal people could no longer get behind, someone who threatens and hurts innocents due to rejected feelings of powerlessness from Joels death. Only then could "revenge is bad" message be taken seriously

i guess he used his ultimate of 'run away while pretending you won'

Fippybippy. The best and only kind of revenge that is valid is moving on with your life and thriving.

The idea of revenge being bad, the whole idea of forgiveness, is just the powers that be teaching us to submit.

no, do not seek to address the wrongs we do against you, you need to forgive us every tresspass, you wouldn't want to be bad goy, would you?

To forgive is to say that no, the wrong you did to me wasn't wrong, that I deserved it and that you are my superior in all ways, that nothing you do to me can ever be unjustified.
And I say fuck that, vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord

Did you not play the game? You’re just wasting time, you know why Jerry was killed and if not you shouldn’t be arguing this since you haven’t played the game and don’t know what’s going on.

I did, multiple times the OG PS3, 2 on PS4 and recently on PC. Is there a reason you continue to play this cat-and-mouse exchange rather than plainly stating what's your point so we can get to it?

She didn’t trust the guy she went with? Really?

The entire time with him she's extremely reserved, cautious and keeps her gun ready to fire. This persists even after they just survived the attack together and she only deals with them because she's desperate to help Joel

Yeah almost like she would learn from her experiences but apparently not.

That's actually an interesting pivot the game could do if Ellie was more reserved with Joel after the experience. However, if they went with that then it would've softened the bond they were making with each other and probably couldn't pull off the great moment where he consoles her after she brutally kills David

They forgot that the human body immunizes itself over time, yes even from bullshit so they chose to be as invasive as possible to extend their reach but were too slow going about it. Too many failed attempts getting rightfully called out for it. IF their games were successful by a synergy of content / appeal / while still having their ham fisted ideology we would have been fucked but it turns out they aren't as good as they hype themselves up to be lol

i let kate die because she doesnt put out.

you're the one cat and mousing and its plain for everyone to see

Then what the fuck is "it" in "it's not the same

can’t intuit that I’m referring to revenge bad stories?

So you’re still playing dumb, amazing how this is the level you’re at.

You seem to have come to the conclusion that I actually just think revenge is bad

No I’m pointing out what your were arguing which you’re trying to change now that you’ve been proven wrong.

Anon Babble isn't a monolith but look at this thread

You said Anon Babble this thread isn’t all of Anon Babble.

You said he holds back from making a final, important, pivotal kill when he absolutely could make it

I said he can be held back, and it’s not pivotal it’s just overkill. Which I also pointed out so you’re actively ignoring shit. How dishonest are you going to get?

Because for some reason you've made it the lynchpin of your argument that people should be allowed to write anything off as "revenge bad"

Another strawman, no I said the trope was obnoxious so it makes sense that people are wary when signs show up. But here you are unable to argue and desperately making shit up. Stop being a child, if you can’t argue then stop. You do nothing but hurt yourself.

I did

So you know why he killed Jerry and you don’t need me to tell you and all of that was just you playing dumb and stalling to avoid arguing like I said. Good job.

The entire time with him she's extremely reserved

So reserved that she makes a deal and doesn’t just tell them to fuck off.

That's actually an interesting pivot the game could do if Ellie was more reserved with Joel after the experience. However, if they went with that then it would've softened the bond they were making with each other and probably couldn't pull off the great moment where he consoles her after she brutally kills David

Almost like she wasn’t intended to have believed him but just accept the lie since she wanted to be with him.

It says revenge is a punishment for a bad thing, specifically, disregarding the far higher likelihood that one or both involved parties are being petty or unduly hostile. It implies that thinking beyond "a bad thing happened to me, go make bad thing happen to whoever looks responsible" is being complicit with the initial bad thing that happened to you. Or, in other words, you have to take revenge or you basically don't even want them punished.

Revenge is a punishment for a bad thing

A

see how that doesnt say 'only' like you claimed? subhuman

So you know why he killed Jerry and you don’t need me to tell you and all of that was just you playing dumb and stalling to avoid arguing like I said. Good job.

Jesus fine, he kills Jerry because he's in the way of getting Ellie out of the hospital as he wants to proceed with the surgery.

If you agree with this then sorry but you're an idiot for dragging this out for so long, even though we see it the same way. If you don't agree with that, you're still an idiot for not making your point immediately

So reserved that she makes a deal and doesn’t just tell them to fuck off.

Because without that deal and the antibiotics she got out of it, Joel probably would've succumbed to the illness.

Almost like she wasn’t intended to have believed him but just accept the lie since she wanted to be with him.

Yes, she doesn't believe him but her desire to love him outweighs it... until she grows older and the issue keeps building up

"Revenge bad" comes from Christianity and is inherent in the West where forgiveness of the trespasses of other people is a core principle. It allows parties to just leave vengeance to God, "vengeance is mine", and prevents continuous feuds with each other.

It's probably why the West ended their decades long Wars of Religions and why it's a somewhat funny anecdote now in Europe, and why the Middle-East and Africa destroys itself constantly with feuds that have lasted more than a Millenia.

"Revenge bad" storylines can only be fixed if the player is allowed to see through it completely, wherein his act destroys not only himself but also the futures of his or her children who will have to deal with the other side's bullshit who also want to have revenge.

revenge bad story isn't the same as revenge bad story

And I'm the one playing dumb?

I’m pointing out what your were arguing

You haven't seemed to understand any of my points.

You said Anon Babble this thread isn’t all of Anon Babble.

This thread reflects what I've seen on Anon Babble.

I said he can be held back

You absolutely didn't fucking say that, you said you can convince him to hold back.

and it’s not pivotal it’s just overkill. Which I also pointed out

No you didn't. What the fuck are you even talking about? Do you believe that revenge is okay until you reach some magic percentage of the people you could possibly take revenge upon? Is that it? What divides between "overkill" and "finishing the revenge"?

Another strawman, no I said the trope was obnoxious so it makes sense that people are wary when signs show up.

"Wary" shouldn't mean falsely accusing games just because you don't like the protagonist having emotions other than spite.

If someone has the capacity to do further damage to you then revenge is justified

Jesus fine, he kills Jerry because he's in the way of getting Ellie out of the hospital as he wants to proceed with the surgery.

Thank you for showing you were playing dumb and purposely avoiding that. Imagine being so afraid of arguing that you have to be dragged to it kicking and screaming like a toddler.

Because without that deal and the antibiotics she got out of it, Joel probably would've succumbed to the illness

So she trusted them to actually deliver it, two random dudes to actually give her supplies.

Yes, she doesn't believe him but her desire to love him outweighs it

Yeah which is stupid that they made her believe him in the sequel.

until she grows older and the issue keeps building up

If she didn’t believe him then what is the issue?

Thank you for showing you were playing dumb and purposely avoiding that. Imagine being so afraid of arguing that you have to be dragged to it kicking and screaming like a toddler.

thats what you were doing though

Realistically, how should "Revenge Bad" storylines be fixed? It's always retarded when your character ends up sparring the final boss despite the fact they killed so many just to get to them.

You have your protagonist kill their enemy and sate their revenge, only to then realize that killing their enemies didn't bring them any internal peace nor bring back the people that they lost, thus leading to a bittersweet and hollow experience. Ryo's revenge against humanity and heaven in Devilman is a great example because Ryo succeeds in wiping out humanity but the cost is too great for him to accept because his race of demons died in the war, and, more importantly, the man he loved, Akira, was killed by his own hands, leaving Ryo alone and forced to wallow in his mistakes and guilt.
THAT should've been the payoff for Ellie killing Abbey. She kills Abby but then she's left with nothing. Her fingers are too damaged to play her guitar, Abby's child is now missing a ward and hungry for revenge, and Dina has left Ellie. Ellie got her revenge but she lost so much and in the end only gained an enemy. An ending like that would've driven home the point that revenge is bad and not always pursuing.

If you left someone to live for a revenge, you failed your revenge.

And I'm the one playing dumb

Do you have to keep making shit up like this? Honestly why are you do desperate? You have been at this for hours and have gotten nowhere.

You haven't seemed to understand any of my points

More like you have to say this post hoc yet again to cope with being unable to argue.

This thread reflects what I've seen on Anon Babble

Do you think that everyone on Anon Babble acts the same as here? Because if not then it’s not Anon Babble.

You absolutely didn't fucking say that

“But he can be convinced to not do it” how does it feel to fuck yourself over like this and show that you’re either ignoring what I’ve typed or just straight up lying?

No you didn't

Literally the same post as the last point

”Wary" shouldn't mean

So you know that I didn’t say what you said I did and it was in fact a strawman. Get your histrionic bullshit out of here and get over yourself.

no u

Called out that you were avoiding it and you played dumb. Stop being a child.

didn't bring them any internal peace

That's a fucking lie. I had an actual enemy. Not "he used my parking space" enemy. But an actual enemy I was ready to kill with my own hands. Gladly life itself did it for me. I'm happy and beaming with smile every time I think his bloodline is over forever.

post apocylpyse

women doing anything but getting pregnant and looking after the home while the men are off hunting and protecting the settlement

lol, do retards actually believe this shit?

mutts do

Umm, women are actually stronger, more intelligent and all-over more qualified to act in crisis situations than white males

Do you have to keep making shit up like this?

I asked you independently about both the subject and object of the sentence and you snarkily implied I should "just know" for both. But it wouldn't make sense no matter what assumptions I made. So I got confused. I was never trying to argue HH was a "revenge bad" story, so surely you couldn't have been trying to imply I was.

Do you think that everyone on Anon Babble acts the same as here?

Operating 100% on rage and retardation and demanding you do the same, calling you a pussy faggot leftie if you don't? For the most part, yes.

But he can be convinced to not do it

You convince him to hold back =/= he can be held back ()
You convince him to hold back = you convince him not to do it ()
Not sure how you got confused on this one.

it will set a bad example for the tribes and just lead him down into more obsessive and fucked up behavior

Tell me how this clarifies that killing specifically the leader of the tribe he massacred would be "overkill". Please, explain.

I didn’t say what you said I did

Given how many things you're pretending not to have said, at this point I think you don't even have an argument left.

right except i called you out first after which you continued to play retard (is actually just retarded)

this game would have been good if you played as abby the whole time and then it ends with a flashback of abby killing joel. and then you play as ellie. whoever was in charge of the narrative sequencing should be shot.

It sounds like people chomping at the bit for the moral right of way to curb stomp the guy who cut them off yesterday.

Correct, that's all these threads and the further Jewification of society is; justification for Godless and cruel behavior. Turning the other cheek has always been the behavior of the truly good and righteous man.

Realistically, how should "Revenge Bad" storylines be fixed? It's always retarded when your character ends up sparring the final boss despite the fact they killed so many just to get to them.

Religious MCs, or MCs with a strong consistent philosophy. They never kill mobs who surrender etc.

then you have the rest of your life seeing that person kill someone close to you

And then I have the memory of fucking them up good and proper. Which gives closure and a sense of justice.

Realistically, how should "Revenge Bad" storylines be fixed?

They can't, they're inherently shit and unsatisfying. Miura telegraphed the ending of berserk decades ago and was crippled having to actually follow through with his revenge bad story because he knew it'd be poorly received and the reception would tarnish the legacy of Berserk. That's why he put off finishing the manga until he died.

oh yeah god hes the one who took revenge on eve for eating the apple right and took revenge on the earth when commanding noah to save the animals and took revenge on earth when

711248218

pivots to a debased and irreligious version of christianity in order to win

punishment is revenge

TLOU2 is funny because they did the revenge scarring the person enacting it bit well (at the end showing ellie alone and physically scarred) but they botched the actual revenge part for (seemingly) no reason other than to be contrarian
Another poster here already said it but at some point sunk cost kicks in and the person engaging in the revenge just commits because they've already done so much

You can't actually have "revenge bad" without the revenge

I asked you independently about both the subject and object of the sentence and you snarkily implied I should "just know" for both

If you’re arguing something then you should know it, yes.

Operating 100% on rage and retardation and demanding you do the same

So you lied yet again when you said Anon Babble wasn’t a monolith. Here’s my advice go back to your echo chamber and stop crying on a website that you hate.

You convince him to hold back =/= he can be held back

Even now you have to take the “can” out before convince. Honestly why do you have to do this pathetic shit? You fucked up stop seething and just accept it.

Tell me how this clarifies that killing specifically the leader of the tribe he massacred would be "overkill"

Because I pointed out how he crippled the tribe, but thanks for once again proving you’re purposely ignoring what I’ve said.

Given how many things you're pretending not to have said

You mean nothing? Because so far you have been proven wrong on everything you have accused me of and shown you’re either ignoring shit or making shit up.

right except i called you out first

Oh poor baby, needs to blame other people in desperation.

Elaborate on the differences anon.

Have the revenge cause serious consequences if acted out

the game did a really bad job of showing ellie stopped cause abby and the trans kid was a mirror of joel and herself. (joel killed abbys dad, abby killed ellies 'dad'). it made logical sense to me. she wasnt going to kill some innocent kid like abby didnt kill ellie the first time. the cycle ends here.

If you’re arguing something

I don't even know if this is an argument anymore. You're going apeshit over me not being able to decipher your abominable writing.

So you lied yet again when you said Anon Babble wasn’t a monolith.

when I say "everyone on Anon Babble" I mean a reasonable portion of everybody but when you say if you mean "literally everybody"

Fucking hell you're obnoxious.

Even now you have to take the “can” out before convince.

Why does player choice fucking matter in this? The fact is that if you convince him to hold back, he doesn't go off the deep end. Why is "can" the thing you're splitting hairs over and not the MASSIVE difference between "hold him back" and "convince him to hold back"?

Because I pointed out how he crippled the tribe

Do you consider revenge complete if the tribe is crippled, or if the one who led it while they decided to hurt you is dead, or when they're all dead?
Ctrl + F "roots", by the way

you have been proven wrong on everything you have accused me of

Holy fucking shit you're just delusional. I think I have to throw in the towel.

Have the revenge cause serious consequences if acted out

So just like TLoU2, then

fpwp

There's no consequences in Ellie finishing the job. She'll have killed an entire tribe and her people would actually gain resources and territory in the process

I don't even know if this is an argument anymore

You already tried this cope and have been caught lying multiple times. If you have nothing else then stop. Your ego isn’t going to get less damaged you’re just going to get more unstable.

Fucking hell you're obnoxious

What don’t like people remembering what you say and calling it out? Maybe acting like a petulant manchild and that won’t happen.

Why does player choice fucking matter in this

So you are now trying to deflect from the fact you tried omitting something that I gave a direct quote of because you couldn’t argue. Pathetic.

Do you consider revenge complete if the tribe is crippled

Yeah, he destroyed the people that hurt his family.

Holy fucking shit you're just delusional

Flailing and crying isn’t going to prove me wrong.

I think I have to throw in the towel.

Good, run away with your tail between your legs and tell yourself you won.

the chinese kid isn't going to hunt her down? you sure about that?

Double points of the serious consequences aren’t even for yourself, but for other innocent people

Realistically, how should "Revenge Bad" storylines be fixed?

You don't need to fix shit, it's self inflicted skill issue from people that don't want you to see a happy ending, this is why every movie adaptation of Count of Monte Cristo is shit, the book does everything right but since you can't have nice things every movie adaptation fuck it up.

"Revenge bad" only works when you have the character betray himself, his ideals or others; when he actively harms those around him, etc.

It doesn't work when MC is a cold blooded killer that suddenly gains a conscience right before the final strike just to give a corny speech.

There's no consequences in Ellie finishing the job

First of all, the following happens as a direct result of Ellie embarking on her quest:

Jessie dies

Tommy gets crippled and breaks up with Maria, on top of becoming jaded, if not aggressive

Ellie breaks up with Dina

Ellie loses the ability to play the guitar.

In the ending sequence it's subtly suggested that Ellie manages to reconcile with Dina (she once again wears the bracelet Dina gave her, which she didn't have when she went to Santa Barbara) but the question is: would she manage to fix her relationship if she went through and killed Abby? Personally I don't think so, if only because it would go against everything the game's been showing us up to that point

Alternatively make it seem pathetic and worthless.

"Revenge bad" only works when you have the character betray himself, his ideals or others; when he actively harms those around him, etc.

All of that, word for word, happens in TLoU2

Depends on if she kills them all or not. So nothing really happens? We're btw talking about finishing the job and enacting a real genocide here

Whats hilarious is she doesnt for one second think of jesse when exacting her revenge. Only flashes of joel. When jesse got a hole shot through his head 1m away from her. So fucking funny. Total aasian humiliation.

It doesn't. She's an unrelenting cold blooded killer for the entirety of the story until the last second in which she decides she can't go through with it.

Revenge is an unwritten social contract. The -mostly- civilian version of nuclear deterrence, a tool of fear.
It works by making people think twice about messing with other people because they will fear the consequences.
You seduced someone's husband in the middle ages? Well you should be prepared to be thrown under the bus as a "witch" by his wife the second the crops go bad in a harvest.
You stole from or killed a town blacksmith? Well you now have to count with his entire guild coming after you.
Modern versions of revenge consists of carreer threats instead of life threats mostly. If you undermine someone in the company then you should count on that person (or sometimes their entire department) biting back on an opportune moment to throw you under the metaphorical corporate bus and ruin your carreer.
Adolescents' revenge is often more physical, especially with bullies and the like. If you make fun of the big guy in class, you should be prepared to face the consequences.
In fact, police, law and prison sentences are also more of an act of deterrence for the overwhelming majority. A tool of revenge. If you do something real bad, you may have to count on him to call the police and you'll get jailed.

Did you miss the part where she has a mental breakdown cause she killed a pregnant lady?

revenge bad is an inherently harmful trope that makes sure cunts will have free reign to abuse people

Realistically, how should "Revenge Bad" storylines be fixed? It's always retarded when your character ends up sparring the final boss despite the fact they killed so many just to get to them.

Just make it an old feeble fart when you finally get to them. Congratulations, you wasted your life trying to end someone elses.

Jew, who's entire culture is about getting revenge, tries to write a story about how it's bad

It comes off as insanely hollow

Wow... who would have guessed

Revenge is parallel to justice, true justice. The entire reason you have, well, had a civilized society, is because the meek finally decided to imprison, castrate or kill those who did them wrong. We genetically purged problem personalities from society.

She's visibly shaken by torturing Nora and then goes into shock after killing Mel. Interestingly, we're spared from seeing how the return to Jackson went, in particular seeing the reaction of Jesse's parents and Maria but it must've been hard on Ellie. I wonder why this was cut, maybe it was due to time constraints (game was supposed to be bigger than it already is), perhaps ND was afraid players would dislike Ellie even more or maybe this would lead to even more accusations of "manipulating the audience" or "guilt-tripping"

you could argue the story is more about not taking half measures and if you're going to strike at your enemies you should destroy them all
that makes it extremely jewish

Seeing as revenge is bad, it’s fine how it is

but revenge isn't bad.

Depends on the revenge. For something like TLoUII, just have Ellie do it but she is so broken, suffered so much and lost so much she has nothing to go back to.

Works when the focus is given to the other things that the revenge affects, the people that are hurt along the way, or how the person seeking revenge limits or ruins opportunities due to tunnel vision/obsession.

TLOUS2 fails since the body count is so glossed over and easy, none of it matters until it suddenly does right at the last second, it feels contrived, rather than a natural realisation the player or the main character has as they're going through the game.

Also it generally just doesn't work that well in action games in general, since like, obviously the action is meant to be fun, you're supposed to be entertained while killing dudes in this game and it feels kinda disingenuous when the game then tries to make you feel bad about what it led you to do to begin with.

There's only two ways to convey revenge bad. One is to never go on the revenge journey to begin with and one is to go through with the revenge journey and then show the character still suffering afterwards.

this is how it should be done

main character spares final boss

final boss kills main character

therefore ellie should have died to abby to show how moralfagging is evil

That was the original ending of the game but ND liked the chemistry between Abby and Lev so much, they rewrote the story

youtu.be/3BoA0RckOk8?t=8930

I love the commentary for this game, I learned quite a few things about it that I missed despite playing it multiple times

t. revengelet

Changing it is stupid. Ellie kills how many people to get to Abby? To back down from killing her after all that is silly. It only works if she gets to Abby before having to go through anyone else first. Hell that would work too. You kill Abby to start act 3 and then have to fight through everyone else who isn't involved but want revenge for Abby.

Ellie arrives and finds she's actually been dead for quite a while. Whether or not she would've gone ahead with it, she'd suddenly be forced to realize just how much death she caused chasing after a dead woman.

and then she realizes lev is still alive and ellie becomes joel
POTTERY

Simply put, it should remember that justice > vengeance.

Is there any reason to fight the villain beyond your personal hatred of them? If so, do it, and firstly for that reason. If not, then is there a reason to let the villain live his life? e.g a community that depends on him, a family he protects, anything beyond your own satisfaction? Then you probably shouldn't. At least, a likeable protagonist wouldn't.

I always liked Witcher 2's ending, between Geralt and Letho. You could take revenge at the end, do right by Foltest's memory, but only for yourself. There wasn't really much of a point otherwise, and a lot of players understood that.

Wow... who would have guessed

The bigger problem is that Niel was trying to write some kind of commentary on the israel/palestine conflict being a cycle of revenge. When the truth is that it's one of oppression and theft.
Never forget that the jewish state is a terrorist one, they just happen to be friendly to america.
Viewed from this as an attempt at allegory for a conflict druckmann and other jews pretend is one where everyone is evenly guilty for the violence you somewhat understand why his ending is a wet fart that makes no sense.
It's entirely about escaping the responsibility for indefensible actions with no real justification and some kind of ephemeral "but now we can do good after all our evil".
That's before you get to the problem of it being an action game where you murder hundreds of enemies in cold blood and no real problems occur.
The whole game is stupid.

finds her dead hanging on the cross

this would have been the better ending

revenge bad is because if you get revenge on someone then others want revenge on you and it makes for a never ending cycle

Killing them all, along with their friends and families, is also an option.
They can't get revenge on you if there's no one else who wants revenge on you.

Tekken 3 did very well with King II's revenge plot.

how should "Revenge Bad" storylines be fixed?

The first step is not to force you to kill characters you don't know, just to then make you feel bad for doing it.
The second step is not to force you to forgive the one person you really wanted to kill.

Kratos blamed himself more than he did Ares. He's the one who was obsessed with winning that he willingly offered his life to Ares. His bloodthirst is what drove him to kill his family. Ares was "innocent" in that. By the time Athena offered to sooth his nightmares and Ares himself was stomping around Athens, that's where the revenge kicked in. It was misguided revenge if anything. Kratos was the one to blame for everything.

The Letho revenge situation is further muddied given that at the end we know that Letho did Geralt a pretty big favour trying to take care of Yen + Geralt himself could potentially be a kingslayer at the end of the game himself.

You know what has a better anti-revenge story in it? Fire Punch. When the main character finally gets his revenge even you as the audience just feel it is empty.

forgiveness route is ok but it has to be earned through character development and growth, you can't just have a sudden change of heart in the last moment while holding a gun pointe at your enemy. tlou2 wasn't set as this type of story but a bloody revenge one. neil is a hypocrite but the game was made for woke retards so that ending probably makes sense in the heads of decadent upper class californians and their "culture" which absolutely hates common sense.

Besides what says, there's another element to revenge: legal processes failing.
If you can get the prick arrested, but then you kill himself, that's wrong because you are putting yourself above the JUST law (just here because if the guy got away with it, then you have a point).
The most interesting aspect is time. If the scumbag becomes a literal who grandpa in Greenland, is it right for you to take revenge? What if he becomes a good and important man to a community? You strip the community away from him.
There's a comic book called Preacher that could have touched upon this: a nazi cop moved to Texas to start a new life, is a good guy who supports the main character and was romancing his mom (there was no implications that the nazi cop wanted to do anything evil with her too).
The main character finds out and confronts him about being a nazi. It was interesting moment, till the libtarded tendencies come into blast because there was no conversation on this, instead the nazi cop just peer pressure into killing himself and we're supposed to root for the MC wholeheartly, despite this story being all about FORGIVENESS. At least make the nazi cop a dick/evil first. hot damn.

You fix it by not offering any commentary on revenge whatsoever, but involving the protagonist in more things than his revenge.

There is no greater relief than that from vengeance sated.

I had never taken "Revenge bad" away from this book, more like "Revenge good, but it's bad if you begin to think yourself an agent of God's justice and not a man that just wants justice he could never have".

if amy were there she would never let them turn tlou2 into such slop

"revenge bad" has been a thing for a long, long time

but the entire story is revenge is great until you go a little too far and almost lose your new underage potential wife.
Did you even read it?