Anyone else feel they UTY devs should waited just a bit longer to release the game, so they could do something Kanako, instead of just leaving her as an incomplete mess of a character?
Also making another thread after the last one, because it just got spammed with nonsense instead of actual discussion.
Yes they absolutely should have delayed the game a bit so they could finish that specific storyline, cause it's clear they rushed it, and essentially skipped the whole thing to release the game early.
The devs not fleshing Kanako out was one of the major reasons Kanako ended up being such a nothing burger in the pacifist route.
If this thread doesn't get jannied I'll probably write some greens.
I don't think it would've mattered how much they waited. They never intended to do anything with Kanako at all.
the devs had no plans for kanako, so it would change nothing
she was just doomed to die for drama just like clover
like the other anon said, they never had any intentions to expand Kanako's plot line or Chujin's
its not fair, the devs were landed at least 2 great plot opportunities kanako in true lab and zenith using chujin's serum but they didnt do it for whatever reason, and I can't believe no one in the dev team ever raised up those 2 points in the 7 years it took (and more with the pacifist ending)
Will the other fangames (if they ever release) fumble the bag as hard as UTY did? Or will they learn from UTY's mistakes?
I hope I won't have any Clover suicide tier writing mistakes. I think I'm a better writer than that, but the UTY devs probably thought that too. All I can do is try my best and get my stuff proof read.
While I think giving the story another once-over might've given the writers the chance to notice and deal with some of the more major issues the story had, I don't think Kanako was necessarily one of those issues. Sure, it could've been cool to see a bit more of her somehow, but as it stand, she serves her purpose in the story. The only story based issue relating to Kanako that really needed to be fixed to any extent is just the context surrounding her death. They should've made it so that Ceroba refused to inject Kanako with the serum when she first asked, only for Kanako to sneak into Chujin's lab later on and inject herself with the serum out of a misguided desire to prove that she can help Ceroba fulfill Chujin's plan, that would've made way more sense for both Ceroba and Kanako's characters, and it would've made Ceroba less explicitly in the wrong.
Outside of that, there really isn't a way to have Kanako be a more important element in the story without completely changing what the story actually is, and as rough as UTY's story can be at certain points, I honestly don't think that's needed.
In the anniversary stream they revealed that they never had any plans for Kanako beyond her being a reference to the "spoon" amalgam from Undertale
Goes to show how shorted sighted they were, and lack of foresight to not realise the problems that would cause.
NTA, but genuinely wondering here, what problems does that cause?
Other than the writing for the scene where she dies, are there any real writing problems with Kanako? Past that point she basically just serves as a motivation for Ceroba doing what she does in the back half of the pacifist route, Kanako isn't really much of a factor in the story outside of that.
If Wildfire is anything to go by, they definitely learned what not to do from UTY.
From what I've seen the team have been very meticulous with their planning, and have been listening to feedback from those that have played their short demo's, as well potential things that they could do.
because the way they wrote it was so half assed literally everyone thought a true lab segment to save kanako was cut at the last minute, but it was just not included at all
they didn't even explain why the mask powers ceroba to boss monster tier level
I dunno, I didn't expect there to be a true lab segment in the game when I first played through it. I think that might just be an instance of people expecting something that was never implied to exist, like those people who got upset at ps5 spider-man 2 not being a 100% accurate new york simulator.
The only reason you would even be in the true lab in UTY is if the story got even more off the rails and Ceroba-focused than it already is, there's no legitimate reason for something like that to happen in-game.
Also, I kinda just figured the mask Ceroba wears was just an emotional boost of some kind, like how Undyne turns into Undyne the undying in a UT genocide route because of her emotional state, but she just melts if you kill only her in a neutral route. I just thought that Ceroba's emotional connection to the mask was giving her a power boost like that, not because the mask itself had any kind of actual power to it.
Undyne turns into Undying because of her determination wich is explained in the game
Ceroba's mask never got an explanation
Outside of that, there really isn't a way to have Kanako be a more important element in the story without completely changing what the story actually is,
Yes there is. Just add an additional 30 minutes of games after where the normal pacifist ending would be where you save Kanako and Clover lives happily ever after with Martlet. It can be another non canon ending like jaundice.
It's not just determination (as in, the tangible substance in-universe), it also has to do with her mental and emotional state as well. She clearly still has a lot of determination when you kill her in a neutral route, but she only has enough to reform into Undyne the undying during a genocide route, where she feels much more strongly about the whole situation.
Anyway, UTY is a fangame, I don't think it's a stretch for the writers to have assumed that the player would have a certain amount of familiarity with the source material, and therefore that some things don't necessarily need to be explained. That definitely doesn't excuse every issue with the game's story, but I think "Ceroba becomes more powerful in her boss fight because of her emotions/determination" is a fairly reasonable conclusion to reach based on what we see in both the original UT and in UTY.
The only reason you would even be in the true lab in UTY is if the story got even more off the rails and Ceroba-focused than it already is, there's no legitimate reason for something like that to happen in-game.
roba's entire thing was to get to the lab in hotland with clover, then suddenly for no reason she flees to new home, even martlet's line of "she went there to juke her pursuers?" feels very phoned in
there is no way that's good writing
sure I agree with the mask boosting ceroba's powers, but it feels that's more a leftover from when she was the boss monster, there is no way even an emotional monster could get to boss monster level just by getting angry, undyne is an exception because she was already the strongest monster after asgore, but roba was just a housewife that was out of shape, that once again is just bad writing
save Kanako
Okay, how? Brushing aside the fact that such a situation would almost certainly be mutually exclusive to a canon-compliant ending, how would you even go about "saving" Kanako? I've heard people say that Kanako was meant by the devs to end up as that one amalgamate you see in that bed scene from the original UT, and if that's the case, I'm pretty sure Kanako is fucked. The other amalgamates have at least a passing resemblance to the monsters they (used to be/are composed of), the amalgamate Kanako supposedly ends up as is a completely non-descript tube. If she isn't even capable of pulling herself into a form that even vaguely resembles what she used to look like, I'm not convinced there's anything left of her mentally either.
I just beat the game, did Pacifist, downloaded a save to see Flawed Pacifist, then did Genocide. Pretty good overall but I felt like Martlet's fight was really bad. It's just a clusterfuck of bullshit between the claws and the shotgun feathers. Bullet hells should not be designed around an iframe dodge. Sans' fight is far more elegant and satisfying to learn.
Are there any other fangames I should play? Only other one I tried was Undertale 2 which is a (good) shitpost. I don't expect any other full length games like Yellow but even short ones would be fun.
UTY is already non canon so just go the entire way
have clover give kanako 1/1000th of his soul (which is already proven to be possible in UTY since chujin did literally that to integrity's soul, and a human soul is equal to thousands of monsters as seen in asriel's fight) to save her and have an integrity fight in kanako's mindscape where you can drop more lore bait
then have clover still go confront asgore since that was his mission instead of killing himself, so he can instead die there and "tie back" into canon, and the ending is way more bittersweet then whatever the fuck the actual ending was
this can all happen after the roba fight so you can keep all that in
First off, don't make her the spoon. That creative decision reeks of a spur of the moment idea that has no thought put into it whatsoever. Second, how about they use Clover to develop a soul stabilizing serum, or have him use his soul on her (which is a thing that's been shown to be possible in Deltarune) to heal her. Or hell, have Clover still die, but actually save Kanako in the process, and have him not die of suicide. Like lets say they break into the lab, but in the process they trip an alarm, a bunch of royal guards show up, Clover is mortally wounded, and as his dying act he uses his soul to save Kanako, restoring her to her natural state. Then the guards take the soul and put it in the jar. All plot threads are resolved and canon is still followed.
OST appreciation post
youtu.be
Deltarune Yellow is good, but unfinished. Undertale Naranja and Wiildfire both have combat demos released. There's the Red and Yellow mod for Undertale.
There is TS!Underswap, which is pretty competently made for an AU fangame, it has 2 sections so far
There is also DRY made by an anon, has a chapter and half but it's still very unfinished
Undertale Wildfire has a short combat demo but a bigger demo is coming up in a few months
For single fights, there are a few like Scampton, The Upper Hand and Underfell One Hell of a Show
There is also Outertale but it is mainly just UT with a space skin, but it has some unique fights and gimmicks, and the geno route is different too
there is no way even an emotional monster could get to boss monster level just by getting angry
I'm not saying it makes sense for her to be at boss monster level, but at the same time, we still haven't really seen what a boss monster is actually capable of. The only canon boss monster fights we have from the original UT aren't helpful because none of them *really* want to fight you in any of their contexts. Toriel specifically goes out of her way not to kill you (though there is a way to die during her fight, if you're clever), Asgore is half-assing it since he also doesn't want to kill you, though he doesn't go as far as to explicitly avoid doing so, and Asriel/Flowey is usually just fucking with you and doesn't want to kill you for real. And Asriel's fight hardly counts anyway, since he was being boosted by the human and monster souls, so we can't really powerscale him by himself.
With all that in mind, it's not necessarily fair to say that Ceroba got boosted to boss monster levels, since we really haven't seen what it looks like when a boss monster *actually* wants to kill you instead of fucking around, so I'd say it's likely that even though Ceroba got a pretty decent boost in her fight, she's probably not actually up to the level of a real boss monster.
undyne is an exception because she was already the strongest monster after asgore
I don't have much of an actual argument to make on this point, but I feel like Papyrus is at least on Undyne's level when it comes to sheer power, he's just held back by the same thing that held back the Dreemurr's, the fact that they don't actually want to fight/kill you.
demo demo demo unfinished demo dropped demo
Uh, let me be clear, I only wanted complete games.
then your only choice is outertale, tough luck
Played Undertale 2
You've played every good fangame in that case.
There's a bunch of completed single fight fangames.
the issue wasnt kanako. The issue was the main trio and clover being accomplices to genocide even though they were probably aware what asgore would do to humanity.
Kanako can be forgiven as missed potential. The genocide plothole meanwhile completely breaks the games narrative arc and messaging.
Sure, I guess. The idea sounds kinda neat, though to be honest I'm not sure why so many people insist on Clover personally saving Kanako or having any kind of relationship between them given that they literally never interact with each other, but that's besides the point. My main point however many posts back was that the absence of such an ending, in and of itself, is not a problem. Like yeah, I like wish fulfillment endings/stories every now and then, but I really don't think the game would be made any better by having some kind of "save Kanako" route/ending/whatever. The pacifist route still has a complete story even without it, it's absence isn't an issue, it's just something you wish was in the game. And again, there's nothing wrong with that, it just means it's not an actual problem.
All plot threads are resolved
Kanako's plot thread *was* resolved, just not by saving her. The whole point with Ceroba's story at the end of the pacifist route (assuming you didn't blow her head off) was about her letting go, not trying to fulfill Chujin's legacy with that serum, and not trying to somehow undo her mistake with Kanako. Sure, it's something of an anticlimax with the latter of those two, but it's still a resolution. It's her going, "yeah, I fucked up with that, I can't fix this, I need to accept that and move on". Sometimes a plot thread is resolved, even if it doesn't look like it at first.
The whole point with Ceroba's story at the end of the pacifist route (assuming you didn't blow her head off) was about her letting go, not trying to fulfill Chujin's legacy with that serum, and not trying to somehow undo her mistake with Kanako.
That's not a resolution. Kanako is still there, in the lab, existing as an immortal pile of sad goop. And Ceroba hasn't even learned anything since she just did the same shit that got her into this mess a second time. That is just leaving two big plot threads unresolved.
Let me elaborate. If Kanako died and was confirmed dead, that would be a resolution. If Ceroba let Clover go and accepted Kanako suffering forever, that would be at least half a resolution. Ceroba getting what she wanted the whole time, Clover's soul, via letting a child kill himself, then not using it to save her child, which she had spent the rest of the game trying to save because she let her commit suicide, then deciding to just throw it away, is the opposite of a resolution, its an abrupt dead end.
existing as an immortal pile of sad goop
Yeah, like all the other amalgamates.
If you tried to actually factor UTY into the timeline of the original UT, then the resolution to this story becomes "Frisk encounters whatever amalgamate Kanako turned into in the true lab, resolves the true lab sequence as normal, and eventually Kanako is released along with all the other amalgamates before the true pacifist ending.".
There really isn't a sound way to resolve this story arc within the confines of where UTY can go, and that's kinda the point of UTY. None of the story can really be resolved for anyone until Frisk comes along. Every other human soul Asgore has probably has a similar story to Clover, they fall into the underground, go on a long journey where they encounter lots of people and make new friends and get a big happy found family, and are then abruptly killed by/for Asgore since there aren't enough souls to break the barrier yet and there's no way they could stay hidden from the royal guard for very long before being found or just being generally miserable.
That's part of why Clover offers up their soul, because what the hell are they gonna do once they get to Asgore? They certainly aren't strong enough to beat him, and again, they'd basically have to live in hiding forever if they didn't want to be found out by the royal guard, so they didn't have any great options at that point.
So if Shu (that being the Mr Satan parody version, not the reddit power wank version) were to be paired with a human, which one should it be? Frisk, Clover, one of the other soul fangame characters, or an original human character?
The other amalgamates have at least a passing resemblance to the monsters they (used to be/are composed of), the amalgamate Kanako supposedly ends up as is a completely non-descript tube
Most lf the amalgams don't look anything like their overworld sprite, they can shapeshift
UTY devs Should waited just a bit longer to release the game
God no, As other anon pointed out the devs had no idea what they were doing and it a miracle we got the game and story we did. They would have 100% either fucked up the story even more so the entire protect collapse due to some drama. The stream pretty much confuser this for me.
What worse is that they could have hand wave a lot of plot point by just saying flowey made sure it never happened.
Ceroba hasn't even learned anything since she just did the same shit that got her into this mess a second time
Don't remind me
Anon, that's horrible writing. A story needs to be able to stand on its own, even if it is a prequel. As it is, Yellow is relying on Undertale resolve all of its major plot threads off screen (Which mind you we don't even get a mention of so we just have to assume it happened). Flowey and the ultimate fate of Clover, fair enough. But all the OCs too? That robs the story of any narrative weight by placing all the agency outside of the bounds of the story, inside of another separate work, and removes any potential for a proper ending. Even if you consider things getting resolved in Undertale, it still gives the played no satisfaction because they never see it. Might as well make all the characters existing Undertale characters at that point. Might as well make all the plot threads existing Undertale plot threads at that point. Might as well not make a game at that point since Undertale already exists.
The entire point of telling a side story is that it can function off to the side on its own. Yellow can't do that if its ending is something that happens in another game off screen with no acknowledgement.
What worse is that they could have hand wave a lot of plot point by just saying flowey made sure it never happened.
its the funniest and worst thing about uty plot holes. A lot of them could have been fixed with one or two lines. Or other simple shit.
its amazing and sad
Sounds hot. I really like two opposite sex crossdressers fucking and transman x transwoman is close enough that I sometimes actively look for fanfics depicting such on AO3.
Can we not talk about that tranny shit again, please? I don't want this thread to die of it too.
anon by saying to not talk about something you just make others want to talk about it.
just ignore
Pregnant Momlet
files.catbox.moe
Draw anon your once again doing gods work with the momlet images.
someone reposted my shitty doodle
anyways, I think shipping him with Hope (Human from UT Reflection) could be funny since she is a soul of perseverance, she could teach him how to learn from his mistakes and to not give up his training, eventually becoming the warrior he always wanted to be, the parody version of Shu actually has a lot of potential for being strong he is just needs someone to push him to try training again
A story needs to be able to stand on its own, even if it is a prequel
I agree with you, yeah, but there are a lot of prequels out there with endings that basically boil down to "and then the thing this is a prequel to happens". Revenge of the Sith, MGSV (and 3), Halo Reach, etc.
And again, I'd say the real resolution when it comes to everything going on with Ceroba is just her letting go of all that, part of which involves realizing that it's outside of her power to do anything about Kanako, and that doesn't need to be explicitly stated for it to work. Sometimes the resolution is just accepting that there is no real way to fix things, no matter how hard you try or might want them to. That's what happened with Asriel/Flowey in UT, and people were so upset by that one that some guy actually tried to put together a petition for Toby Fox to make dlc just to make Asriel saveable, and obviously that never panned out.
Sometimes the only resolution you can have is to accept that some things are outside of your control and that you should just focus on what you have instead of chasing ghosts.
Really, that idea is fairly prevalent in UT, both in-universe and out. The main theme with Flowey's story in the pacifist route is about him letting go of the idea of Chara, realizing you aren't them and moving on, and living a life without them.
Part of Toriel's story is moving on from what she used to have with Asriel and Chara as their mother, learning to let go of her feelings and let you leave the ruins and continue on your journey through the underground.
Even Sans' story has major themes of letting go of something important and moving on, even if we don't know the specifics of what exactly he's letting go *of*, but it still fits.
Sure, UTY definitely could've pulled it off better with a bit of reworking, but having Ceroba accept that she just can't fix what she did and learn to move on from it isn't a bad idea, just not one they executed as well as they could've.
The orange soul would fit best since a lot of takes on it make it a fight maniac with special moves and such. It would be the best soul to juxtapose with a fraud martial artist
I didn't for shipping. I meant like if he were to be inserted into a human's story as a boss fight and recurring character, which one human should that be?
he is just needs someone to push him to try training again
Its not that he doesn't train, its that his training consists of him watching kung fu movies and knocking over water jugs with a stick in his back yard.
I also did Dina
files.catbox.moe
Riley cucks Luna with Shu/Shu goes to jail for dating a minor (Val)
In that case, I still think a soul of perseverance could work, pushing him to train harder (like doing something other than watching kung fu movies), that or a bravery soul since those are the more combat oriented, either exposing him as a fraud or teaching him to fight properly mid fight
Not into pregnancy myself, but did you ever do a Ceroba one?
Im reposting this subject again (dont worry there will be no mention of dbz cuck shit)
So looking at this map, it looks like an excellent situation for starlo vs chujin drama.
In regular uty chujin and starlo were able to ignore each other . Chujin lives in a mansion outside of the cowboy town. starlo lives in that cowboy town that is somewhat far away from the mansion.
In dry this is not that situation. In dry chujin and starlo live in the same town. Right near each other (look at the map)
Starlo cant ignore chujins house and has to cross pass it or see it (since chujins house is in a important intersection)
Chujin meanwhile lives right near the middle of town. Governed by starlo, someone who he probably despises. So chujin cant ignore the cowboy town and starlo.
They are both stuck in a position where they are forced to interact with each other. Especially since I can imagine them crossing pass each other in the roads, buildings and etc.
I can imagine lots of tension and drama. Especially due to a certain fox moma, and how both starlo and chujin is attracted to her.
(I wonder if this is one of the things chujin complains to ceroba in private. Just like how he talks negatively about clover, perhaps he does the same with starlo. Starlo doesnt seem to be distant looking at the whole kanako calling starlo uncle.)
ignore the (you). I accidently replied to your comment
What problems does it cause?
Well to go down the list:
They introduced a plot thread, that very clearly had a lot to do with plot, only for them to do nothing with it, and abruptly pretend it doesn't exist.
Kanako as a character is non-existent. She's treated like she's important, but then she's not. because she's pretty much just...kind of there. She has no developed characterisation, because she just their to say a couple lines and get screwed over by her mothers, incredibly stupid and nonsensical actions.
Kanako is essentially Asriel, except all the interesting stuff has been removed. No explored backstory. No clear motivations that are explored. And above all, no resolution for her status.
For a character that's supposed to be a huge driving force for Ceroba, she's conveniently just swept to the side. Barely anyone reacts to what happened to Kanako, as they barely try to let what happened sink in, and after that we don't even get to see if Kanako will get fixed in some way or not.
The whole Kanako being the spoon amalgamate was dumb, and they were better just making her unique standalone amalgamate, that Clover could've potentially interacted with, or tried to help in some way.
The list goes on...
Revenge of the Sith
The difference with the Star Wars prequels are that all of their plot threads are either resolved in that movie, or become the main plot threads of the original trilogy, and are resolved on screen by the main characters in Return of The Jedi. If you ever pay attention to the prequels you'll notice the fact that every who's introduced in them either dies in them or becomes a main character in the original trilogy. No one ever asks "What happened to Dooku?" or "Where did Grevious go?" because we know what happened. They died. And the stuff people would ask about at the end of ROTS is the main focus of the following three movies.
What UTY did would be like if Vader was a minor background character who showed up occasionally to catch bullets, Leia never even appeared and we just have to assume she died when Alderaan was destroyed, and Han Solo was the protagonist of the originals, with Luke only showing up at the end to help defeat Palpatine.
If you really really need there to be no way to fix things, then kill Kanako. Don't just leave her undead and unresolved forever (no, being off screened in Undertale is not a resolution). Or cut Alphys and the true lab all together. Instead leaving Kanako amalgamated by Chujin's serum, still sitting in Ceroba's basement.
and that doesn't need to be explicitly stated for it to work.
Yes it does. Even if you don't say it with words, you have to show it clearly, so that the players will get it. Failing to do so is a failure of the writers at a fundamental level.
Sometimes the resolution is just accepting that there is no real way to fix things, no matter how hard you try or might want them to
But there was. She had it in her hands. She was right there and could have at least saved Kanako. But then at the last minute decided to just let both of them die for nothing.
Wasn't their supposed to be an egg showing with Clover's soul inside of it?
TS!Underswap is extremely high quality but unfinished and appears to be going through your average mentally ill teen developer drama.
If you're fine with standalone fights, A Different Snowgrave and Underfell One Hell of a Show are fantastic.
You draw really good Martlet's and Zenith Martlet's.
Looking forward to seeing more of them from you.
I don't know much about Riley and from what I know about Val I don't think they could be friends. Either Shu ends up getting (at least from his perspective) his life ruined for being exposed as a fraud because would never let a faker like that win, or Val kills him because he thinks Shu is way tougher than he actually is. I think it would need to be someone who can understand that he's bluffing and put up with his bullshit to actually be friends with him.
Another thing that upset me about UTY was the white flowers in the steamworks, I thought they were part of Kanako's almagamated self spreading through the underground like a tumor, but then it turns out the flowers are nothing at all
Really what the fuck were the devs thinking, I just can't believe they didn't think of anything with the weird plot threads, there is just too much setup for it to be just them going "haha we didn't think about it"
I feel like they are just lying now to save face
rule of cool, thats it, thats what UTY was built on, they didn't account for how autistic the Undertale fanbase can be about details
Kanako as a character is non-existent because she literally doesn't have anything to add to the story outside of being the motivation for what Ceroba does in the pacifist route. There are times in a story where a character is more useful to the story dead than alive, and that's the case with Kanako. Kanako herself isn't treated as being important, it's what happened with her and Ceroba that's important, and Kanako needs to be dead or otherwise out of the picture in order for that to work.
Her absence isn't a problem because again, it's not *her* that's important, it's the context of the situation.
Kanako is essentially Asriel, except all the interesting stuff has been removed
Kanako isn't really anything like Asriel, except for the fact that they're both kids who died trying to do what they thought was the right thing and got way in over their heads.
Asriel is an active presence in UT, as Flowey. He's a driving reason for why several plot elements happen, he's always watching what you do, taunting you, and nudging you in the direction he wants you to go. The entire true pacifist ending is the result of him manipulating events to make sure everything goes his, he's an active participant in the story. Strictly speaking, Asriel and Chara's deaths are the reason for why Asgore is collecting the human souls, but that's Asgore's deal, and Asriel is really only a small reason for why he's doing that.
In UTY, Kanako is entirely passive. She's not a presence in the story outside of Ceroba's motivations, and that's completely fine. It's like how Ben Parker isn't a factor in most Spider-Man stories outside of being part of why Peter does what he does. Kanako doesn't need to be an active participant in the story, she isn't a plot hole, she served her purpose fine.
Do you guys think any of the fangames will have the balls to make an ugly female monster part of the main cast?
What Shu needs as a character is to admit he's not that good so he can either A) quit trying to be this ultimate badass that can solo the entire underground and do something achievable with his life or B) swallow his pride and go learn from someone who can actually teach him how to win fights (Undyne). His problem is that he's too scared to admit that because he's afraid that if he is weak, and that people know he's weak, he'll go back to being bullied like he was as a kid.
So he needs a human that can help him to work through his issues. Bravery might be able to work for that by beating him, but then actually being nice to him after he's exposed as fraud. Showing him that he doesn't have to be the strongest for people to be good to him. I just don't know how that would happen without him getting exposed as a fraud to other people in the process.
You're thinking of a different pic.
I just don't know how that would happen without him getting exposed as a fraud to other people in the process.
If this bravery is like Val, then the human could be the one that looks for Shu and challenges him when he is all alone, forcing Shu to fight
I heard you're pretty strong
She's treated like she's important, but then she's not
an understatement, kanako is arguably the second most important (if not most important, depending on how you gauge chujin's importance) to the game's events and yet at the same time if you actually cut her you'd only need to rewrite a few lines before and after the steamworks.
take asriel on the other hand, if you were to cut him you'd need to rewrite almost everything thanks to how tightly woven he is into the game.
ugly
female monster
pick one
Val
The problem with Val is that he wouldn't do that. He'd either fully believe Shu's bullshit, hit him full force, and kill him, or see that he's a fraud a refuse to let Shu walk away with his dignity. It would be like putting Vegeta in a fight with Mr Satan. There's no way he'd ever let him win.
The main cast of UTY are all nobodies, effectively, and again, that's part of the point.
The only characters in UTY that actually matter in the grand scheme of things in the underground are Toriel (who appears for all of a minute), Flowey, Clover, and Asgore (who you may or may not even get to see depending on the ending you get). Ceroba, Martlet, Starlo, Dalv, and all the rest aren't meant to actually *matter* when it comes to the grander events of the story of the world of Undertale, not just talking about the story of the original game, but the world as a whole.
The question of "what happened to so and so?" is the same as what happens to all the background characters in the original game, they just live their lives after the story is over, and that's all it needs to be.
The main cast of UT are all fairly important people in the context of their world. The king and (former) queen of the underground, the head of the royal guard, the royal scientist, the biggest entertainer in the underground, etc. The only exceptions to that would Sans and Papyrus, but they have other things going on, and that's besides the point.
UTY's cast is composed almost entirely of literally whos.
If you really really need there to be no way to fix things, then kill Kanako
It's not that Kanako *needs* to stay dead/amalgamated in order for the story to be resolved, it's that the point of the end of Ceroba's story is that resolving Kanako's story is out of her hands.
Ignoring the fact that killing amalgamates was clearly shown to be impossible in UT, and that putting more soul material into Kanako probably isn't a great idea either given than the 1/1000th of integrity's soul is what made her like this in the first place, it's all besides the point. Ceroba giving up at the end of the pacifist route isn't just hand waving her story away, it's acknowledgement of the fact that she literally cannot fix this.
If you really really need there to be no way to fix things, then kill Kanako. Don't just leave her undead and unresolved forever (no, being off screened in Undertale is not a resolution)
That *is* the resolution, that was clearly the resolution.
If you're going to say that being resolved as one of the amalgamates that get released in UT doesn't count, then you may as well write off the existence of the amalgamates in general when talking about UTY's story, in which case Kanako's implied state is still just what we last saw her as, in that "fallen down" state that all the other monsters given to Alphys were in.
Kanako's story, when it comes to her direct involvement as a character, ends when she takes the serum, and that's literally the entire point of her in the story. *She* doesn't need resolving, because we have no reason to believe anything regarding her status has/is/will be changed, outside of becoming an amalgamate in the true lab, and again, this is literally the whole entire point of her character. She wasn't some super major player in the story that they just didn't know how to handle, she wasn't scaled back during development, she literally just wasn't meant to be anything more than part of another character's
backstory, and that's how it is. Even in the "beta" version of the game's story, Kanako herself still wasn't an active element in the plot, the only difference was that Ceroba was intentionally trying to kill her so that she would stop leeching off her soul energy since that version of Ceroba was a boss monster.
Kanako was never actually an important character directly, it was always about the context of the situation around her.
Anticlimactic? Maybe. Unresolved? No.
I think a lot of the issues people had with uty could be solved is if clover confronted asgore and died through that. (in both pacifist endings)
That way you dont have three adults letting a suicide happen and be accomplices to a genocide.
He'd either fully believe Shu's bullshit, hit him full force, and kill him
That depends on how strong Val is compared to Shu, assuming he has decent stats and Val isn't high LV then he should survive an attack
or see that he's a fraud a refuse to let Shu walk away with his dignity.
This is indeed true, Val would probably remind Shu of his bullying. There are two possibilities after Val realizes that he is fighting a fraud, either Shu tries to flee, destroying any chance of Val and Shu ever being friends, or he still tries to fight, Val would despise Shu's bullshit claims but he would respect the fact that he didn't give up despite never having a chance at wining (and was most likely terrified during the entire fight), which opens other possibilities like Val noticing Shu's potential (if Shu does have high stats) or letting him go with the condition of dropping the act
Hey, does anyone have the rest of this set?
I tried looking through desuarchive to find where I found this one, but no such luck.
They stop being nobodies the instant you make them important named characters in UTY. They have become important to the player, and that matters infinitely more than their relevance to some other games plot. In fact, their lack of plot relevance in Undertale is exactly why their plot must be satisfactorily resolved in UTY. Becauseit can't be resolved anywhere else.
it's that the point of the end of Ceroba's story is that resolving Kanako's story is out of her hands.
Its pretty hard for that to be the point when she has the way to fix Kanako literally in her hands. Its stated that a pure human soul is what is needed to save Kanako. Now she has what is indisputably a pure human's soul. And now its "muh nothing I can do".
Ignoring the fact that killing amalgamates was clearly shown to be impossible in UT
Its fiction anon, you can write a way to kill amalgamates, or simply make her not be an amalgamate in the first place. Have her fall down and die like Chujin did.
and that putting more soul material into Kanako probably isn't a great idea either given than the 1/1000th of integrity's soul is what made her like this in the first place,
That's because Integrity was a psychopath. A pure human's soul is what's stated to be the only cure for her affliction.
Ceroba giving up at the end of the pacifist route isn't just hand waving her story away, it's acknowledgement of the fact that she literally cannot fix this.
She can, and even if she couldn't that's a horrible way to end it because it still pushes a massive narrative element (Which is massive, we wouldn't be having this debate if Kanako's fate weren't important/ ) into a game where its never even acknowledged. That's a setup with no payoff acting like its going to have loads of payoff.
That's part of why Clover offers up their soul, because what the hell are they gonna do once they get to Asgore? They certainly aren't strong enough to beat him, and again, they'd basically have to live in hiding forever if they didn't want to be found out by the royal guard, so they didn't have any great options at that point.
I mean its better than just suiciding when you add in the context of asgores genocide plan. The way uty is structured means either clover knew asgore would do the genocide plan and thus clover ends up supporting the destruction of his own species. Or clover didnt know and thus becomes an unintentional accomplice to the genocide of their own species. Both end up making clover look bad and butchering utys overall story.
I think it would have been better if clover confronted asgore and learned asgore wouldnt do it. Then I can see the suicide scene making sense. (tho this will end up repeating ut funnily enough)
his training consists of him watching kung fu movies and knocking over water jugs with a stick in his back yard.
Rufus from Street Fighter has that backstory, even to the point of being obsessed about beating some strong fighter who doesn't care about his existence, and he managed to be top tier. I believe in Shu!
Anon, if you say a character is being sent to what everybody knows is the immortal zombie lab, then they're going to make the connection that if they aren't immediately removed from that place, they will become an immortal zombie. And as I've said before, getting implied to be off screened is not a resolution. Not for a named character, with a sprite, and multiple spoken lines of dialogue, whom the entire plot hinges on.
The entire second section of your post
It doesn't matter what they intended, it matters what they did. They made an incredibly important character, one whom the entire plot hinges on, one whom every character is connected to in some way, one whom every player was expecting more from. And then swept her under the rug the instant she fulfilled the bare minimum requirement to prop up another character. Then expected the player to just be cool assuming they would be taken care of to based on a single line that never mentions her by name in another game.
This is BAD WRITING. There's no defending it. I don't know why you're defending it.
do you have a document where you criticize utys writing. I would be interested in reading it.
whom the entire plot hinges on
Again, it doesn't hinge on *Kanako*, it hinges on Ceroba's actions in response to what happened *to* Kanako. The entire issue you're having here stems from you thinking that Kanako was way more important than she actually is or was ever meant to be. Like, I really don't mean to offend here, but you are focusing way too hard on a single passive element of the story and getting upset that it wasn't an active element.
one whom every character is connected to in some way, one whom every player was expecting more from
Speak for yourself, I absolutely didn't expect Kanako to be a major player in the story by herself, and it looks like I was right, since she totally wasn't.
assuming he has decent stats and Val isn't high LV then he should survive an attack
Maybe if he gives up and starts begging for his life, which he might not. He only has 221 HP, so if Val has killed some monsters prior to this, or if Shu just isn't willing to take the L, he could very likely die.
letting him go with the condition of dropping the act
I don't think he ever fully would. Even facing down certain death, he'd still act tough to the bitter end. You could get him to chill out, accept that he's not all that, and learn to not be an ass about it. But he still would keep acting like he's a super tough guy. And even then I think that'd have to be a more long term arc, rather than something done in a single battle.
which opens other possibilities like Val noticing Shu's potential
If you're talking about him possibly becoming a student of Val's, I don't see it. Shu wouldn't be willing to be seen as the apprentice of a kid half his age. Even if the kid is really strong and he could actually learn a lot from him, the optics of it would be too much for him to accept.
If a friendship were to develop between the two, it would be like the friendship between Rei and Ken in Fist of The North Star. With them viewing each other as equals who work together to kick ass, rather than as a leader and a follower (even if Shu is actually way weaker than Val.) I have no idea how they would get to that point though.
the author posted a zart version in the last thread
Anon, if you say a character is being sent to what everybody knows is the immortal zombie lab, then they're going to make the connection that if they aren't immediately removed from that place, they will become an immortal zombie. And as I've said before, getting implied to be off screened is not a resolution
Again, buddy, the resolution is that Kanako is an immortal zombie. That's it. That's how it is. The ramifications of this are just whatever happened with the rest of the amalgamates in UT.
UTY is meant to be a prequel, so of course there are going to be things that only make sense from the perspective of it being a prequel. Going back to my Revenge of the Sith comparison earlier, there are tons of things in that movie that don't make sense (or are otherwise not followed up on) if you haven't seen the original trilogy. "What's that big space station Vader and Palpatine are looking at at the end?", "Why did Obi-Wan just dump Luke on Tatooine?", "How has Qui-Gon become immortal and why are we only hearing about this now?", etc.
Kanako's existence is meant to server another character's story, and that's fine, it happens literally all the time. It happens with Bruce Wayne's parents, it happens with Uncle Ben, with George Joestar, Allison Church, who-fucking-ever, it's not bad writing for a character to not have a major direct role in a story just because you wish you saw them more, that's your own problem.
Like, I really hate to break it to you, but no, Kanako isn't "incredibly important", the plot doesn't hinge on her, she isn't even connected to that many characters other than by virtue of being connected to a character who actually *is* connected to other characters. You act as if the game was hyping up Kanako to have some kind of major presence in the story, and that just absolutely isn't the case.
I know, I saw that one, I'm just wondering where I can find the rest of the Ceroba set, since they made an entire array of faces/moods for Zenith Martlet.
Im also curious too. I need that roba set
It is bad writing when you set up the character to be a big plot point only to ignore it.
Dalv's trauma is closely related to Kanako. Martlet is the most adjacent but Chujin being at Snowdin is why Dalv's trauma happened. Starlo shows he cares about her a lot. Ceroba tricks you with the promise of saving her. Axis is her brother, from a certain point of view. And then you get nothing.
I do too, its just that what's holding him back isn't lack of training. Its bad training and lack of self confidence. He's hamstrung by his bad "kung fu" which he's too afraid to admit is bad, and his fear of exposure, which makes him weak, since monsters' physical strength is heavily linked to their emotions. When he's actually fighting for real, and not trying to show off or hide his inadequacy, he's actually not bad.
If he got some decent training he could be a very competent martial artist. Or if he stopped trying to be an IRL badass he could probably do very well in movies. Maybe even becoming the Underground's only kung fu movie star.
It is bad writing when you set up the character to be a big plot point only to ignore it.
is there any real evidence that kanako was set up to be a major plot point.
or is this a mass effect 3 indoctrination theory or aot anime only ending situation, where the writers didnt intend it to be set up this way. Instead they unintentionally set up plot points that could have lead to greatness but they didnt see it. Its only the fans that saw it not the devs.
It is bad writing when you set up the character to be a big plot point only to ignore it.
That's my point! They didn't do that! *Kanako* is not a big plot point, her having fallen down because of the serum is the plot point! She is a passive character, she has no direct influence on the story by herself, it's all about what *other characters* do *around* her in the story!
Kanako has Ceroba inject her with the serum, she falls down, and the rest of Kanako's effect on the story is 100% indirect from there on out. It's all about what Ceroba is doing because of what happened to Kanako, Kanako herself is effectively dead in terms of her role in the story, that's the whole point of her.
Having Kanako have an active, direct presence in the story after taking the serum would've been the fan-game equivalent of that alternate ending to TASM2 where Peter's dad turns out to be alive the whole time for no reason, it would've completely derailed the story and been fucking stupid, but apparently that's what you were expecting, so who am I to judge.
this just sounds like mass effect 3 indoctrination theory and aot anime only ending discussions. Bad ending causes cope, cope causes conspiracy thinking, conspiracy thinking causes interesting theories, interesting theories causes debate.
The same phenemona, the same cycle.
Again, it doesn't hinge on *Kanako*, it hinges on Ceroba's actions in response to what happened *to* Kanako.
Chujin's research was started because of Kanako, Axis was created because of Kanako, Integrity died because of Kanako, the serum was created because of Kanako, Chujin died because of Kanako, Dalv is hiding in the ruins because of Kanako, Kanako was injected with the serum because she begged to be injected, Ceroba is trying to kill Clover because of what she did to Kanako. Kanako is one of the two narrative threads that ties everything in UTY together, the other thread being Chujin.
but you are focusing way too hard on a single passive element of the story and getting upset that it wasn't an active element.
Because it was in the position where it by alll rights should have been active. She is one of the two most important characters to the story. Remove her and 70% of the game never happens.
Mass Effect 3's original ending was bad, but for completely different reasons. And they fixed that later anyway so who cares.
I'm absolutely not arguing that UTY doesn't have problems with it's writing, because it totally does, I'm just arguing that Kanako's relative absence from the story isn't one of them.
I'm absolutely not arguing that UTY doesn't have problems with it's writing, because it totally does, I'm just arguing that Kanako's relative absence from the story isn't one of them.
oh I know that, im just saying that this entire discussion reminds me of the conspiracy thinking debates ive seen in aot or mass effect 3 communities. The ones where people point to oh look at this evidence of x y z, theres clearly something missing here. A hidden ending or cut potential ending. And then it turns out it was just fans coping by creating an actual good ending when there was nothing there.
The kanako guy here reminds me of that people (no offense kanako guy) And you and the other guy debating him reminds me of the people who responded negatively to the conspiracy theories.
Chujin's research was started because of Kanako, Axis was created because of Kanako, Integrity died because of Kanako, the serum was created because of Kanako, Chujin died because of Kanako, Dalv is hiding in the ruins because of Kanako, Kanako was injected with the serum because she begged to be injected, Ceroba is trying to kill Clover because of what she did to Kanako. Kanako is one of the two narrative threads that ties everything in UTY together, the other thread being Chujin.
Again, these are all things that happen in response to things happening *to* Kanako, not because of Kanako directly. For instance, in the original UT, Asriel and Chara are important characters because they actually *do* things, they hatch the plan to have Asriel take Chara's soul and pass through the barrier, Chara plans to use their collective power to kill a bunch of humans, Asriel resists causing them both to die, which sets the events of the game in motion. From there, Asriel continues to be an active element of the story as Flowey, where he actively participates in the events of the story as a real character.
Kanako has none of that. She never does anything, other character do thing *because* of her, but she herself isn't important to the story, she may as well just be some random kid for the Ketsukanes, she literally doesn't matter outside of being the motivation for *other* characters to do things.
I don't think he ever fully would. Even facing down certain death, he'd still act tough to the bitter end. You could get him to chill out, accept that he's not all that, and learn to not be an ass about it. But he still would keep acting like he's a super tough guy. And even then I think that'd have to be a more long term arc, rather than something done in a single battle.
That sounds right, but then again monsters seem to be quick to change their mind
If you're talking about him possibly becoming a student of Val's, I don't see it. Shu wouldn't be willing to be seen as the apprentice of a kid half his age. Even if the kid is really strong and he could actually learn a lot from him, the optics of it would be too much for him to accept.
Less of a mentor student thing and more like Val going
"You got guts and you are strong, but not as strong as you think"
"You'd be better challenging someone on your level"
That would hurt Shu's ego but he could take Val's advice and fight other monsters to become stronger and then challenge Val again, forming a rivalry which could be one sided for comedic effect or could all be part of Val's plan to fight Shu again after he gets actual fighting experience
The fact that Naranja's story involves a torunament would be the perfect setup for a rematch between the two
If a friendship were to develop between the two, it would be like the friendship between Rei and Ken in Fist of The North Star. With them viewing each other as equals who work together to kick ass, rather than as a leader and a follower (even if Shu is actually way weaker than Val.) I have no idea how they would get to that point though.
They could reach the point of becoming friends after a rematch and Shu shows Val a considerable amount of growth since their last fight
This is all starting to sound too much like a battle shonen
Again, buddy, the resolution is that Kanako is an immortal zombie. That's it. That's how it is. The ramifications of this are just whatever happened with the rest of the amalgamates in UT.
That's not a resolution for an important named character. It can be a resolution for a minor character. But the minute its applied to an important character it stops being a resolution and becomes a cop out.
"What's that big space station Vader and Palpatine are looking at at the end?"
first of all, that was explained in Attack of The Clones. Second, its the main crux of the following movie's plot, and is adequately resolved in said movie.
Why did Obi-Wan just dump Luke on Tatooine?
That was explained IN ROTS. He's sent to live with his surviving family members and to be hidden from the emperor.
"How has Qui-Gon become immortal and why are we only hearing about this now?",
That's explained as far as it can be without delving into midichlorian talk in said movie and then used heavily in the following three movies.
By contrast Kanako is sent to the lab and is never seen or heard from again.
It happens with Bruce Wayne's parents, it happens with Uncle Ben, with George Joestar,
You know what the difference with all those characters is? They're dead, and they died at the start of the story. Batman isn't spending the entirety of Batman Begins trying to cure his parents' fatal poisoning.
she isn't even connected to that many characters other than by virtue of being connected to a character who actually *is* connected to other characters
She's connected to more characters than Ceroba is.
Yeah, but even then, the people who made those theories about ME3 were at least doing so in response to an actual issue with the game's writing, this whole thing with Kanako is just nonsense because this guy is assuming she was supposed to be some major element she was never meant to be.
this whole thing with Kanako is just nonsense because this guy is assuming she was supposed to be some major element she was never meant to be.
fair that is true
where the writers didnt intend it to be set up this way. Instead they unintentionally set up plot points that could have lead to greatness but they didnt see it. Its only the fans that saw it not the devs.
That's what we've been saying from the start. The devs, by complete accident, made Kanako the second most important character in the game. Failed to see what anyone who isn't actually retarded would see. Then treated her like an unimportant side character.
She has such a heavy indirect effect on the story that you have to give her some kind of on screen resolution in the game.