RPG game lets you re-spec at any point of the game for a small fee

RPG game lets you re-spec at any point of the game for a small fee

seems to be more common in recent years, is this good or bad design?

Good.
Restricting respects basically enforces most players to go for the "meta" instead of experimenting.

they should let you respec in combat, including change class, race, appearance, everything

full reroll at any time, that's what we want to see

Bad design, because if people are worried about shit like it's probably a clear sign that your game has a bunch of retarded unoptimized or "trap" options and players don't want to have to waste hours of playtime just to realize that their builds are worthless. The respeccing itself isn't the problem so much as it's a bandage for a problem that's thanks to poor balancing and game design. In a perfect world, builds would include stats that are intuitive to understand and all equally useful in some way.

It's bad because it turns the game into a boring easy mode for babies in which your actions don't require thought because there are no consequences.

No one forces you to respec

"I will impose upon myself a rule of no respec"

NOOOOO THAT DOESNT WORK BECAUSE I HAVE NO SELF CONTROL DEVS CHAIN ME UP NOWWWWWWWW

genuine non-issue

i just won't play your baby game, i hope you enjoy it though. i have some alphabet blocks you can borrow when you "win."

gimping yourself an hour into the game by not picking up a seemingly mediocre skill that has incredibly powerful synergy 30 hours in

This shit is literally never fun

Respec in longer games like Elden Ring, good.

Respec in shorter games like Demon's Souls, bad.

You don't want to trap the player in a shitty or unfun build for hundreds of hours.

You don't need respec in those games. You can just use cheat engine.

It may be a net-good on account of patching over some other more serious issues (such as disastrous balance, lacking in-game documentation, foreknowledge of upcoming challenges being effectively required, literally bugged skills, classes failing to live up to their own "class fantasy", entirely playstyles like sneaky rogue focused on trapfinding and lockpicking rather than combat being completely unsupported, etc, etc), but I don't think full and instantaneous respecs should exist in an otherwise well-designed game. Costly, limited or "slow" (you e.g. have to grind skills back up after starting somewhere in the middle, perhaps with accelerated progression) respecs might be fine depending on the game.

For one, I think being able to respec freely creates precisely the problem is complaining about: After all, builds tend to be optimized for some specific goal. Since players are likely to have a different journey with different routing, different choice of companions, different loot discovered, etc, the build they end up having might be unique despite making optimal build decisions along the way. But if you can respec at will, you no longer have builds that are optimal for your unique journey, but you can always pick the optimal build for specific task at hand. Non-scaling build but one with big flat +damage for levels 1-10, cheese build to cheese act 1 boss, the same cookie-cutter high-scaling endgame build once you get to endgame.

Second, it's just thoroughly unthematic. And also unsatisfying in terms of emergent narrative: for example, even if you are 100% min/maxing, going for the hyperscaling but gear-dependent build doesn't feel earned if you don't appropriately struggle before you get the gear. With respeccing it's just I-win button.

And third, the fact that developers can always say "oh, but the players can just respec" in reality allows them to get away without careful tuning, making sure all playstyles are actually fun and supported, etc, e tc.

This. A good RPG can assure there's always a solution for you no matter what build you have.

That means the game is too easy. Good games aren't beatable unless you play optimally.

Can be good or bad.

Gives good freedom of choice and variety but it also let's you cheese by having a party all with OP builds.

ruins the rpg fantasy when you can remake your full str low int barbarian guy into a rogue or mage at literally any second.

RPG's are different.

It's bad. Need to get into a fortified location? Lol just respec into rogue and unlock/disarm everything lmao. Need to get into an enchanted tower? Lol just respec into wizard and counter the enchantments lmao. Need something heavy lifted? Lmao just respec into strength lmao.

Having to think about some kind of party balance and utility is pretty damn important to me. Sure, you can fill your part with just casters if you really want to, but then you have to deal with not having a rogue around. Or you might make a balanced party, but then you'll be lacking in pure blasting power. Free respec removes this entirely.

RPGs shouldn't be glorified puzzle games where you can only progress with one specific solution.
You make strong foes and you can make certain classes or team comps counter them more effectively, but not to the point of that being the only way to win.

didnt beat the game if you respec

yeah i agree, depending on the kind of game there should be limits. maybe being able to respect within your existing general archetype

If anything respec could add more to the game. Think about early ff games where certain builds were better for bosses, you were always changing your equipment around after learning from fighting the boss and losing. You just get games like Skyrim if you're supposed to always be able to brute force your build.

Thinking about immunities, weaknesses, damage taken etc per battle is more strategic. Then if you're just always locked in.

there should be some permanent loss of progress

It's not just that. A lot of the time even having a clear description doesn't necessarily work out because things work differently in actual application so you're rarely 100% sure your choice works or interacts/synergizes well. And then there are cases where in some games, the descriptions on abilities and skills are just really vague.

Strategizing your build after losing is kino. That's a major aspect of party rpgs. Is the building of your team for big battles and learning what works.

I think an issue nowadays they always make the super bosses immune to all status effects and no weaknesses which I think is anti fun. They can just give the boss a giant hp pool to mitigate if they care that much about it being difficult.

Whats the point of roleplaying if your can just be anything anytime and never have to commit to a character your create. Make new characters, play differently, simple as.

Pretty much always a good thing. Much more fun and likely to experiment with weird and different skills when I know it doesn't mean my character is now shit due to wasting points.

Much better than the boring shit most people do where they just look up a meta spec and use whatever it tells them to use.

Bad design, if there's no commitment to your build then what's the point?
Also this

When everything has a solution for every encounter then there's no challenge at all.

Just restart and replay 40 hours of the game

How about no.

n... nooo I want to be able to spec into every skill possible and not be spread thin!!!

Skill issue. If you can't design a build you are unintelligent.

RPG game lets you re-spec at any point of the game for a small fee

Yes, definitely the same thing.

You have games like bg3 or mass effect to do this. Your party will correct where you lack.

Jrpg style games is more about respec frequently for certain battles.

common complaint for diablo and diablo 2 was how late-game can absolutely nullify anything your character could do

had to make a new character to try anything new in dark souls

Allowing respeccing during the game is the devs admitting they didn't know how to balance shit and are apologizing for it.

Great. Now I don't need to start over another 300 hours savefile of Xenoblade X if I want to try messing around with a topplelock or sleep build after having invested in an Astrolibrium reflect build.

Strategizing your build after losing is kino. That's a major aspect of party rpgs. Is the building of your team for big battles and learning what works.

I don't disagree, but I don't think only optimal play should allow you to win.

But then what's the point of giving options if they just don't work?
Either ditch the class system and tailor the challenge around fixed party abilities, or make sure the enemies aren't going to completely negate one or more playstyles.

Good cause when games are over 50 hours long I get bored of doing the same strategy so respec at anytime allows me to change weapons and build to keep the gameplay fresh and fun

I like it simply because it allows you to experiment with builds without having to restart. I do believe it should cost you though so you will sometimes have to make due.

If I made an RPG, I would let the player freely respec at any time they want prior to LV 15 so they can experiment with al the playstyles and find what they enjoy the most.
Then, after LV 15, you will have to commit to the playstyle you figured out you liked the most. Because after all, a warrior won't be able to freely switch into a mage and back easily in-universe too.

but replaying d2 was part of the fun, when they introduced respect i basically stopped playing game, cause there was no point exping a new perfect stated character for the new ring i found cause i could respec old leveled one at any moment.

Role-Playing Game game

start game with cool build

oh no you recruited someone who plays basically the same thing

respec!

recruit with basically same build

forced to play the garbage job because dev OCs got the cool ones

It's not min max optimal or learning to break the game. It's learning to beat that boss and moving on.

Changing up weaknesses and immune provide a more variety to type of bosses. Your "fixed" suggestion allows more optimization. If any strategy can work there's always going to be a most optimal build. There's not going to be something that ever gets in your way.

Offer a respec after the tutorial, then put a respec option that costs money or other resources and increases exponentially in cost every time you do it. That way people have the option to salvage a bad build but are discouraged from just jumping between classes after every dungeon.

When did something like that ever happen?

It's near-universal for games with build systems to become easier over time so long as you make "sensible" build decisions: challenges increase, but character power tends to increase faster. The gap between optimal builds (1-shotting bosses at the hardest artificial difficulty setting) and the one you cooked up yourself might increase, but that doesn't force a restart. Hell, it's also not the case that you simply materialize into level 40 with an unworkable build: if you notice your increasing lack of survivability/damage scaling/whatever at level 30, you can spend levels 31...40 trying to fix that shortcoming, or perhaps try to pivot one of your companions to a different role. For that matter, games also have tend to have a difficulty setting. If your non-scaling meme RP build isn't cut out for Unfair difficulty then that's actually fine! I think the game is better off incentivizing players lowering the difficulty over incentivizing them copying a powergaming build from YouTube.

Play BADASS BERSERKER!!!

Recruit the devs OC BADASS BERSERKER!!!

FUCK YEAH!!! DOUBLE-BADASS-BERSERKER SQUAD FOR THE WIN!!! WOOOOOOOH!!!!

Are you joking? Think about what you are saying.

Yes, only faggots think you should have to start a game all the way over because you picked the wrong skills. You should be able to experiment.

it can work when theres enough variety in builds and gear

This. Free respect whenever should be for easier modes so newer players can get used to the system.

When you say 'the wrong skills', that just means it's a shit game if your desired build isn't fun or viable.

So your "roleplaying" is Skyrim tier, lol you can just be a warrior mage rogue who does literally everything.
No wonder you don't care about respeccing, you already do everything.

It depends how balanced the game's classes are. If it's so wildly unbalanced that some specs are hardmode, then yes, you better allow re-spec.

Nothing's worse than getting halfway through a game and realizing it's not meant to be that hard, you just picked wrong.

party comp

If any strategy can work there's always going to be a most optimal build.

And this is fine, as long you are not forced into it.

Your "fixed" suggestion allows more optimization.

Yeah, my point was that if you want your gameplay to be about finding the optimal strats to deal with the most difficult content, then your RPG should go for the fixed route instead of class customization. Let players work out a solution with what they rolled and maybe make gear/items matter more for countering specific threats

I recall one of the Tales Of games allowing you to do with with whichever weapon was equipped. Certain games are designed around shuffling moves and abilities while others have this more for beginners.
This.
In BG3 it also allows you to take whichever party you wish as you can just make them whatever class you need.

in current times where devs release games where half the shit doesn't work the way its supposed to, yes a respec is needed. BG3 still has feats that dont work 100% as intended, let alone something like Pathfinder where theres 100s of them

Oh, I didn't pay attention to the preceding discussion. I thought anon was complaining about the idea of being hardstuck with an unviable build.

Sorry dude, I only play games that are 10s of hours long and I get locked into what I pick before ever playing the game. You know, the real way to play.

Not interested in some easy diablo game

Usually it just means devs aren't confident in their design and feel the need to add a safety rail so nobody gets stuck. Makes a game feel very amateurish.

But then what's the point of giving options if they just don't work?

Not every option needs be viable for everything.

Either ditch the class system and tailor the challenge around fixed party abilities, or make sure the enemies aren't going to completely negate one or more playstyles.

Why not? Denying players story progress or access to optional stuff because of their playstyle means they either have to get creative or realize their build is useless.

Yes, making everything viable means you have to make the game trivial enough that anything works.

If anything, free respecs leads to even harder metafaggotry.

You're confusing the word viable with easy.

Maybe, I can be the hammer guy and he can be the axe or polearm guy.

Not every option needs be viable for everything.

It should be possible either way. Even if much harder.

Why not?

That creates an issue where the class system is merely an illusion of choice.

I really hate dragon quest because of that

FF7 had free respecs and no one complained

depends on the rest of the game retard. if it's designed to cycle characters/playthroughs then you don't need a reset mechanic at all, you can just finish or quit the current run. this is the standard case for roguelikes.

on the other end of the spectrum you have things designed to be commitments like an MMO character which will theoretically last you for decades. these need easy options for resetting builds, nobody is going to spend another 1000 hours bringing a replacement character of the same class up to spec.

How the fuck would you know what the meta is on your first playthrough

Anon I...
most fags today look shit up before playing a game, blind playthroughs aren't the norm anymore

Finally, a true Gentleman Gamer like myself.

Because content creators got the game 2 weeks before you, and wrote maxroll articles for it.

Bad design because if the player isn't stuck with every bad choice he makes, it won't feel like he's living a real life.

You're not supposed to experiment, you're supposed to pick something and regret it for the rest of your miserable life, just like IRL.

FF7 isn't an RPG to begin with. Any game where you don't create your own characters is not an RPG.

Respects

Retard

with free and/or easy respeccing the optiomal way to beat the game is the respec before every fight to tailor your build against the next enemy or boss.

It's not good or bad design. It's just not punishing the player for no reason.
Forcing someone into replaying the game because fuck you is bad design.

There's no good design points given for this sort of thing, because it's a problem created by giving the player choices. It's a solution to players misclicking or wanting to try something different.

This is indeed very fun to do

just started playing Etrian Odyssey blind

later learn that about 80% of skills are utterly useless noob traps

respeccing costs Five (5) entire levels

Yes cheap rsepecs are a fucking good thing.

The happy medium is where the player can rollback two levels worth of skills/attributes and put them to better use. Prevents absolute mongoloids from feeling too punished, and still encourages thinking ahead while giving some breathing room.

emergent narrative

Stopped reading right here.

Good, you shouldn't be punished for experimenting with the combat system.

Name 5 games that do this

Bad.
There's no roleplaying if your role is as fluid as your dad/mom.

Respec should be free like FF16, so you try everything, and change to situation, because menu time is good time sometimes for grindan addicts.

Also removes inhibition from spending experience points. So level up immediately, do what you want to do instead of what you analyse as optimal.

Dragon Age was better with a mod that let you respec. Also saves you from getting bored repeating the same abilities. Blanda upp, find out your standard attacks do nothing and then change it until you're doing mega damage. Some get off on that, I don't, thinking theory. Some abilities like fast reloading are OP, but not for everything. Get a machinegun with a long enough belt and switch it up so time slows down or something. More stability, less recoil, so headshots with it are easy. Make the best of what you've got. A new ability might be OP and require you forfeit a lot of other old abilities you've been using. Set the buttons available to do what you enjoy doing.

Should have more abilities than buttons. Personally I like aim down sights and double jumping. Like Metroid prime 3, if it was Turok like it was supposed to be before Iguana or Acclaim whatever sold their pet owl to Nintendo.

Respec to platform the land.

In modern games its a necessity. Nobody likes starting an entire game over just to respec. An absurd waste of time. Most gamers today dont even finish games. If you want people to keep playing your game then add the option to respec.

enforces

respects

Fuck off, ESLtard. How about you respec into a race that actually can speak English, sar.

I think there needs to be some cost associated, because otherwise mongoloids do this shit.
But at the same time, a long game with a lot of choices sort of needs a bit of forgiveness or room to try new things, or a player might regret early choices or get so paralyzed they resort to googling meta builds, which is equally no fun.
I think limited respeccs might be the way to go. Instead of a small fee, a limited number of items, and the game hands you about half of them fairly easily. Maybe take the number of bosses and divide it by half or a quarter to get the number of total respeccs in the game.

Sadly, modern gamers are troglodytes that don't want to live with their choices.

I think you should commit to your character and how you play it instead of being an indecisive faggot who has to change his build every 10 seconds because some youtuber has some new cheese build uploaded.

B..But what if i make a bad build and brick my save

Just dont be retarded.

If your game allows for the creation of shit builds in the first place it's a bad game. I'm not advocating for simplistic skill systems just one where there isn't terrible choices. My personal preference is extremely limited or no respecs but then I'm an autist who gets my immersion ruined by overly gamey shit like that.

If your game allows for the creation of shit builds in the first place it's a bad game

I think you underestimate how retarded some players can be.
If you've never seen someone just put random stats in a Dark Souls build then you haven't seen the depths of stupid the general public is capable of. Not even trap stats like RES or LCK but just putting a random assortment of STR and DEX and INT and using weapons that use FTH kind of shit.

If your game allows for the creation of shit builds in the first place it's a bad game

lmao
rofl
modern nu neo v

if a game allows you to be bad then it is bad

If you go back to respec to fit every challenge you come across then your autism is so severe you need to be put down.

For me, it's good, because I usually play through a game once. And frankly, I don't even re-spec, but won't hurt to have the option just in case.
For most people, probably bad, because they often want to spend as much time as possible with each game.

For not much work from a dev it can add an easily accessible choice for players to continue from their current ingame progress with new gameplay options. It's like cheat codes, modding tool or optional co-op.

The only people who would get upset are those with little self control, those who want to dictate how other people have fun or those who think beating a game "their way" elevates their own self-worth.

Do you want more casual players or not?
If Yes, then good design.
If No, then bad design.

Who cares? You can just edit the save files if you truly want to change something. What a useless thread.

I think you underestimate how retarded some players can be.

It's not a devs job to idiot proof their game though, just make sure there's no completely useless filler and everything is adequately explained. Far too many games have at least one skill/gear effect etc that doesn't work as advertised.
Being presented with the illusion of choice in a game when half the skills are just creatively bankrupt filler that only shitters and idiots would pick is bad game design. Instead of being a full blown brown roflmonkey, you could explain why you disagree.

People have better things to do than play a game twice, especially one that does not respect your time.

The "small fee" needs to go. Full respec at any point or no buy.

if your choice doesnt mean anything then stop giving players that choice

If you're not a fucking nerd you're not going to "design a build" for a single player game.

Just pick whatever looks cool, if it works fine, if it doesn't work leave a negative review and refund.

Do you really want me to explain why I think that a game that allows you to be bad AND LOSE is not a bad game?

Most of the time respec just seems like poor design. It can work if it's limited so that you can refund few most recent points and allocate them to somewhere else, but otherwise it sucks.

Good, I ain't got all day
If I want to roll with what I have, I will

If your game has mechanics or powerful game-altering options that can only be obtained later in the game, it makes sense to let people respec to take better advantage of those options.

The players don't know at level 15 what builds are best at 100.

Players are so bitch-made these days they're afraid to fail at making a build.
I bet these bitches are cocomelon kids.

BG3 ends at level 12 シ

bad
it removes the significance of your choices and often makes little narrative sense
if youre worried about players being stuck from picking a shit build, then you either need to:
A. suck it up and let them fail and learn from it
or
B. not be so shit at game design that there are shit builds

Good, players shouldn't be punished for not looking at guides before making their characters.

For anyone with a semblance of taste it ends at lvl 1 though.

i wear the same clothes every day, regardless of the weather

hate to burst ur bubble, but you are autistic

Tryhardism comes from insecurity, doing this shit just makes you look pathetic.

Tryhardism comes from insecurity

zoomer moment. you'll grow out of it someday

its good and if theres characters customization you should be able to recustomize it.

damn you are so based and contrarian truly a special and unique brave tendie tranny

No, I want you to explain why your so retarded you think that's the argument I'm making when it's not.

So you just google the best build and follow it. WOW SO MUCH SKILL

Find out shit sucks compared to min/max

respect to Min/Max anyway

Might as well just look shit up instead of having free respect.

your so retarded

Respect yourself into an INT build before you talk to me again.

99% of you faggots read guides and then act like you're hardcore
To answer OP's question, all games should let you respec everything from skills to looks.

99% of you faggots read guides and then act like you're hardcore

Methinks the sister is telling on xirself

The term is respec. RESPEC. Short for Respecification. Respect is a completely different word meaning to show deference or admiration toward.

R E S P E C
E
S
P
E
C

GET IT FUCKING RIGHT YOU SUBHUMAN RETARDS

play DS1

find astora sword

"OMG this is such a cool sword, it deal holy damage and shit"

Put points in Faith because you need it to wield it

realise the sword is utter trash sword

want to respect

cant

Have fun with your misspent skill points that could have gone to strength or endurance

bozo lol get fucked

Character builds are shit game development because it’s just a railroaded pathway without any choices. Because theres no meaningful decisions in something simple like this piece of shit reality where we’re hungry and horny and wanna do the highest damage while also having the most defensive stats possible and the most aoe but also the highest single target, but only some guys get too do all of it at once. Theres no choice when there’s only one good choice. Just be happy you don’t have a serious life threatening illness.

No that's Oblivion

Respecialization, anon.

The game exists for people to have fun, player freedom is always beneficial in this respect. People who don't want to make use of respeccing can just not make use of respeccing.

The term is respec.

Is it? Then what's this?

Restricting respects

?

god this game is ugly
and the close camera as if it's a an actual game with real controls lol

This isn’t a big deal you can’t permanently fuck up your character in Dark Souls

The game exists for people to have fun, player freedom is always beneficial in this respect

Then why aren't there pink dragons to fly around in Fallout? That's so restrictive.

I always read guides if I can't respec, or if it's hard to do it. Why would I gimp myself with a shitty build? But I don't act like I'm a good player for it. If anything I enjoy the games that let you respec because I don't feel like I have to read a guide to create a character.

IT'S FUCKING WRONG

I'm gonna respect you on that.

2 words for you: your wrong

a single point in dex and you're permanently bricked u fkn fgt

fires up cheat engine

nothing personnel

I will NOT grind trash mobs to get experience points and upgrade materials
I will NOT gimp my character because you don't want to let me respec

y-you didn't beat th-

Silence. I did not ask for your opinion.

I always read guides

I'm sure you do but just because you head is filled with water doesn't mean everyone else's is too.

It’s good because if I find a new weapon later on that looks cool as fuck and I want to use it, let me use it without grinding levels to get the stats up.

nobody cares nerd

if i invent a ridiculous and obviously hyperbolic scenario, then i am right and the more moderate position should be abolished

You're right, you should be allowed to tame and ride mutant animals in Fallout. Riding a Radscorpion would be rad as fuck.

he fell for the typo bait

Consnession accepted

Doesn't work if the game is balanced around being able to respec

I like it but it is cheating. No one deserves to be hung more than the savescumming, respecing faggots who complained BG3 was too easy.
I appreciate the option though, allows you to explore more or try new things.

Pfft his name is Butts

You have no idea how great the world would be if Al Gore had won.

I didn’t respec once in Elden Ring, but I did a lot in the DLC because all the new weapons were really cool and did crazy shit that I wanted to try out. I used like 8 different weapons in that DLC, and I wasn’t even being optimal about it. Fought Bayle with a fucking flame knight greatsword, fighting a dragon with fire.

The game exists for people to have fun

But I can easily respec IRL.
If anything, the most logical build is being able to eventually max out everything, although it would take you a very long time to knock off the bucket list of the last few skills after you've completed all the content.

it's a bandaid fix to severe issues in a game's content, but it's much better than having the player spec into something and finding out ten hours in "oh this is a meme weapon/skill option that barely exists/is barely used in the game, guess those points were wasted"

I like being able to respec whenever. I don't want to start a new character and do shit all over again if I find something I want to use but can't because some nigger thinks re-rolling is somehow not the biggest waste of time. I could never play WoW because of this.

Bad design.
There's such a thing as too much choice.
And too much choice goes against the vision of the person making it.
You can't carefully construct a specific experience if you're worrying about pleasing everyone.

It's not a bandaid fix. Some games simply have way too many abilities and that's why they're cool, but it's also the reason why it's so easy to gimp yourself. Anything D&D or Pathfinder derived to begin with.

I'd rather not please faggots like you that's for sure

bad
respecs are made for retarded non-gamers, who need "their time respected" so they can watch the newest slop on netflix
start a new game if you want to use a different build, faggot

That's the genius of DS1.
The entire game is based around taking risks.
Will it pay off? You don't know until you try.
And sometimes it doesn't pay off.

Retard

If allowing respecs is enough to gatekeep your kind then that's reason enough to have them even if the game doesn't need them

Why are you limiting players from flying dragons?

>The game exists for people to have fun, player freedom is always beneficial in this respect

Always beneficial, tardo. Always.

There is literally nothing wrong with dex builds

If you struggle with BG3 in any way on any difficulty you might have some sort of clinical brain damage. Default Battlemaster Laezel can solo half of every encounter on her own

all the posters insisting it's "respect" not respec

am I being baited or is it really true that Anon Babble is 90% third world brownoids and ESLs now

For me, you just need it to make sense in the games's world.

Robots swapping out parts and memory cores to completely change their abilities

Yes.

The hulked out idiotic barbarian who has been bashing heads in for months is suddenly and inexplicably a weak, frail, wizard with decades of arcane knowledge.

Retarded.

In FFVII, respecing was down to just swapping equipment and materia, so it made sense in-universe mostly (although there were some base stats that you couldn't respec IIRC).

Yeah it also leads to cancerous and immersion-breaking meta strategies.

OH, I found this item that sets my Int to 20! Now I can retroactively dump my wizard's intelligence to 0 and put all of those points in Con and Dex!

How about being able to respec but losing extra feats/skills/scribed spells/etc. acquired during the playthrough up until that point? So you can level-up the same way and everything but you don't get your external goodies back.

AFAIK this is the situation with whatever you get from the Necromancy of Thay in BG3. Maybe there are other examples too. Larian might have "fixed" it in the meantime but last time I checked this was the situation.

Not an rpg.

How many times did you restart an RPG 4 hours in, because you realized you built your char wrong?
How many times did you restart AGAIN 16 hours later because you realized you didn't understand the systems well enough the first time around?

Its fine. If people want to abuse it by respecing for skill checks or to do out-of-combat stuff whatever. Those same people would probably mod in a way or cheat.

A few times in Diablo 2 and once in Path of Exile. Do those count?

that game is absolutely gorgeous and there are mods for unrestricted cam and WSAD controls

Most people only browse Anon Babble on their phone while shitting. Nobody gives a shit if autocorrect fucks up your post.

You gotta give respect to get respec, y'know?

most people browse while shitting

nobody gives a shit

Heh.

Bad. What is the point of characters even having stats if you wipe the slate clean whenever. Just tie all builds/stats to gear at that point.

respect

youtube.com/watch?v=AIsCV3eyKdc

Bad, you don't have to strategize and commit anymore

It's good design. Not really sure how this is even a question.

Depends. In games where you can actually roleplay like BG or TES, 0. In games where you just kill shit like Diablo and Dark Souls, numerous times.

Good for a specific reason. Its far too easy to build badly in a lot of these games. Having to balance the game around the worst builds just makes it miserable for people that built well, so that isnt an option. Letting you respec lets you experiment.

I would say its not important for shorter roguelike games, but for these dozens of hours long RPGs, bricking characters is a big deal.

Respec is necessary in BG3 because it's crazy how unfun something that sounded fun can be in that game.

Misses the point completely

This is why it's good your genes will die with you.

but for these dozens of hours long RPGs, bricking characters is a big deal.

How many big ass RPGs are even challenging enough to the point where you can brick a character?

Thats fine if you have a large enough party. Like Etrian Odyssey or something with a better catch up mechanic would be fine, because you could just make a new party better suited for the enemy you are fighting. But games with finite parties you cant really adjust team comps on the fly.

It's good. It lets you try out different things in combat rather than running the same few actions over and over.

Plenty of them? The Owlcat CRPGs on any real difficulty setting are not winnable with bad builds. Hell, even the easier diffculties will be a nightmare if you really fuck things up.

But you do though? You specifically can adjust your strategy, but you still have to make one. It doesn't remove strategy, it enforces it. It gives you the ability to make the game more challenging because you can actually expect people to be optimal.

Yea, I was going to say it's common, especially if you want to hit that sweet spot if difficulty.

Agree with your point, it's dumb to be able to level easily with, for example, a high DPS build, then change your build to something that is unattainable or very hard by regular leveling
I think the best way to do this while still being fair is giving an option to level down

OwlCat CRPGs

Haven't played those, what makes a build? Is it something basic like needing lots of CON or is it obnoxious shit like you need high charisma to avoid poorly balanced encounters?

it depends
if the devs are actually good at their job, good at balance, good at encounter and area design to make use - equally - of every single possible skill or spec throughout the game and that they all have an extremely useful niche that no other can bring blahblah
then it's bad, because you're not committed to anything
however most devs can't do that. frankly basically no devs can do that anymore.
respeccing exists as a crutch for them being dogshit at a wide array of game design basically

BG3

Xenoblade 3

Elden Ring

I can't think of any more released in the last 5 years that let you respec at nearly any point with minimal cost (none in Xenoblade's)

Are there any more?

Expedition 33 just came out.

Oh cool! I haven't gotten around to playing it yet, but that's the next game on my list after Oblivion Remastered.

You poor sweet child.

It's literally the opposite. I played BG3 with my friend and all he ever did was spend hours in the respec menu figuring out what did the most damage with multi-class.

Are the respec items infinite and easy to find? I know they arent super rare but I assumed they were finite.

You can do a full respec in Avowed any time you want. Change from high-str two-handed hammer warrior to a weedy big-brain wizard for just a bit of gold.

unlimitations tell you the dev doesnt know whats best and lets the player ruin their own fun

limitations tell you : heres the good shit, the game is designed around this reality

poorly balanced encounters?

Every boss fight.

Underrail made me realize that respec should be a thing. I once picked a great that made my character almost useless because I didn't have enough in a support stat, and I had to lose a ton of progress with an older save.

I wouldnt say minimal cost but most diablo likes these days allow respeccing for a REASONABLE cost.

I don't remember buying any, but I always had more than enough whenever I needed it. I think a lot of side-quest gives them as a reward, which would explain why I had so much.

there shouldnt be a cost. its pointless to have a cost.

Tell me.
What's wrong with them? Do they have buffs/spells that just negate entire playstyles? Do they force you into a head-on fight regardless of how you approach them?

Respecs are good because most game designers are retards and like a solid 70% of the shit they add to games are useless or dogshit.

This. I need puzzles. If Layton isn’t making me shove one handle of my Xbox controller up my asshole for the answer, it isn’t complicated enough.

players love status effects right? Lets add a bunch of those to the game.

Should we make them actually useful for any real content?

Fuck no! Make every tough enemy immune

Kudos to last Epoch for making dot and status effects so strong.

Went Arcane the first time I played Elden Ring because the arcane scaling weapons looked cool as fuck

They were literally ALL bugged to not scale at all for like 6 months

Faggots think I should've just "dealt with it"

This thread is about rpgs

Its full class based building. There are dozens of classes with each class having about 10 subclasses. There are three digits of talents that adjust how your characters work, dozens of spells with offensive, defensive, buff, debuff, CC, etc options. You have primary stats with each class scaling differently. You have dozens of unique items that can have huge impacts, even from lower level gear. For a single character there are dozens of different factors for optimization. And you pick classes every level, so you can go 100% into one class or pick from a dozen different ones, and there are reasons to do it both ways.

I don’t give a shit you fucking baby. Start a new character and cry online that things aren’t easy enough because you’re an adult and have a job.

A non-functioning stat isn't the same as a poorly balanced one.

Yeah. In old rpgs you could play for 10-15 hours before realizing you bricked your characters and that they're useless for the rest of the game.

FFXVI and VII Rebirth have unlimited free respecs. Black Myth Wukong too, I think. Rise of the Ronin it's cheap. Wo Long it's free. Khazan rather cheap. Diablo 4, Path of Exile 2 and Last Epoch a modest sum of gold per point, though you can't change your class.
Only recent RPG I can think of where you can't respec at all is Metaphor.

Tell us how it happened to you and in which oldschool rpg.

You didn't name a single rpg.

It's a From Soft game

Half of the game is non-functional

fuck off retard

Not rpgs go to

Poison, Debuffs, Death magic, etc

It's shit or literally just doesn't workon anything that isn't a basic goblin that dies in two swings anyway

Games where when you level you can pick from a few choices

Half of them do zero fucking damage and are outclassed by the most boring option available

It's all so tiresome

Humans are talking about video games. Can you go be retarded in the gay tranime thread or something? You're stinking up the place.

>RPG game lets you re-spec at any point of the game for a small fee

ATOM RPG made me realize the golden mean is having 1 expensive respec potion, 2-3 serums that grant +1 ability, full transparency from the CC in terms of what you can pick and when, and potentially companions who came with set ability scores but everything else is up to the player.

bad design. respecs are for massive casuals and MMOs.
If a game isn't replayable or beatable as near any spec implemented the game is shit.

Yes, many fights are unavoidable. Nothing is really "wrong" with them, higher difficulties are just tuned around good builds. And because the system has a ton of depth as describes, the gap between good and bad builds is massive, and a bad build cannot hope to win.

What kind of giga autist respec every fight?
I like respec because no rpg in existence has gameplay deep and complex enough that whatever build you chose stay fun for 60 to 100h.
I respec because I want to try out new gameplay without having to waste 40 more hours of my life doing the shit I just did just to get bored just as fast with my new build.

I just don't use them. I think they're shit for cowards and I think less of you if you do it.

Depends on the context.
It can be good if the game is actually just a game about combat, with no genuine attempt at Roleplaying or meaningful impact based on your choices/rolls. Ideally it would be balanced so you can't just respec to adjust for/cheese individual encounters. I thought Dragon's Dogma did this specific formula well. One of my favorite games, and I have no idea why it's called an RPG, even an ARPG. It's just an Action game. Plain and simple.
Ultimately though I would personally be fine if the concept disappeared entirely. It seems to me to be nothing more than an attempt to cater to min/max turboautists and/or people with fear of commitment paired with a lack of capability for even a minute amount of critical thinking.
Niggas who play vidya as their primary "hobby" already have enough on their mental plate, not sure we should be encouraging further decay. Consequences are a part of life. They want to "Roleplay" right? Fucking deal with it, bitch. If that means jumping off your ground floor apartment complex, then by all means, (You) do (You).

tl;dr

Seems like something that should be an easter egg for NG+

Restricting respects basically enforces most players to go for the "meta" instead of experimenting.

No, it doesn't, you pussy.
Even the most hardcore RPGs nearly all have a shitload of viable builds. Very rare are the games where you cannot win if your build is bad enough.

It's good that you have more options in ways you can build your character, but I also think it's bad because being able to constantly change your character on a whim means you don't have to think about your character that much, and your choices don't matter. So my solution would be keep in respec but make the cost something that is related to your character so it's more realistic, and in many ways I think of it like getting plastic surgery. A bad plastic surgeon can straight up kill you, and even one that's really good will make you look unrecognizable or really weird so maybe games should reflect that more.

This is pretty clever, I like it. Make it feel like you are losing genuine progress so that you aren't incentivized to do it, but it's still there as a railway if you absolutely must.
I'd actually respect respeccers if they did it in a game that worked like this.

I didn't respec at all cause I'm not a coward and I had over 40 of them by the end of the game.

it's bad because being able to constantly change your character on a whim means you don't have to think about your character that much, and your choices don't matter.

You have agency, just don't use the feature and your choices suddenly matter again. Surely you possess some level of impulse control?

I don't cry that respeccing is in the game.
But I do think less of you for using it.
Respecing in RPGs is the same as playing games on easy mode.

Which is funny, because I bet a lot of the people that respec and think they beat Elden Ring genuinely are the ones that don't want it to have an easy mode and that everyone should have the same experience.

Then why is it so important to punish other people for using a feature you will never touch? If you don't respec, then its presence as a feature literally should not matter at all.

Bad design :(

As games have gotten longer, it's become more necessary. I'm not playing the game more than once to try different builds unless it REALLY hooks me, and most modern games are wordier than a B^U comic. Sitting through that is not an option.

That's such a vague nothing phrase

They're farmable eventually

You could freely re-spec in the first (and I assume the second) Mario rabbids, but it came with a bug (fixed by the day one patch I foolishly didn't install because it's fucking Mario what issues could it possibly have, but of course it wasn't made by Nintendo) that reset your gold to 0, I didn't notice that at first so I kept being confused wondering where all my money was going until I eventually reached a point where progressing any further would have required too much grinding so I never got any further.

Letting players change their role on the fly in a role playing game is bad design :(

But how does this affect you personally if you don't change your role?

depends on the game, and how it presents respec.

BG3's respec is kinda cool because it's gated, the guy who gives you the option is in a side dungeon that's missable. you have to go through several fights and traps to find him, but I still think once you find him respeccing should've cost you much more.

It's gay in elden ring where all you need to do is buy an item and consume it.

But it's also fine in games like Nioh where all you need to do is, IIRC, spend a lil amrita to respec, since those games are designed to be completely streamlined.

In the end, I think char respec should be difficult, and ideally should have its own story and be missable like in BG3 to make it seem more special and unique.

What games let me do stupid fun bullshit as a spellsword?
youtube.com/watch?v=NA4DTggH9GM

Personally I enjoy learning the game, making mistakes and beating the game with a sub-optimal character. In act 3 I started respeccing and optimizing my builds using what I learned. It sorta robbed me of that feeling after beating the game.

However not being able to respec companions would suck.

good design would be removing variable ATK stats in general.
I'm fucking sick of being punished for playing the game by becoming over-leveled.

Its fine, especially in a long game with a lot of build variety, and in a long game its nice to not have to restart from the beginning because you found out too late you had wasted some skills.
And as long as its voluntary who really gives a shit?
Its also a nice way to preview a build you might like to try later. or just to try something weird (what if I make a monk character with a dip in rogue for extra bonus actions, and barbarian with tavern brawler?)

Then why is it so important to punish other people for using a feature you will never touch?

It's not, just like it's not important to cry that easy modes exist.
But you're still a scrub for using it. Might as well use save states and cheat engine while you're at it.

Its very user-friendly, but bad design.

The experience of a certain build being very weak early, but rewarding the player for putting up with it in sheer late-game power is lost. The experience of a build being dominant early, but falling off late and having to find other ways to make up for it is lost. There is no commitment or investment.

Nah. I personally play through once normally, then I use stuff like respeccing and NG+ to fuck around in subsequent playthroughs. Games are not serious business and I'm not interested in earning the respect of sweatlords.

Irrelevant question. Bad design :(

Nah. I personally play through once normally, then I use stuff like respeccing and NG+ to fuck around in subsequent playthroughs.

That's fine, then. Glad you're not a scrub.

is this good or bad design?

Depends entirely on the length of the RPG
In one as long as BG3 it's good, but in a RPG like V:TM it would be terrible

If every character development choice you make can complete the game's challenges equally there's no god damn point to the choices. A fun system is one that encourages experimentation, rewards understanding, and allows you to change your mind about decisions you made 20 hours ago once you gain that understanding.

I think it's fine in BG3's context. You can't respec your race or sex, you can't reallocate any permanent stat increases you get by playing the game (like the Hag's Hair or the perma +2 strength potion), or the prosthetic eye (which is good on anyone conceivably, but has a short range so is best on melee classes). You at some point either have to commit or if not get comfortable with grossly wasting stats and buffs

Whenever a game has permanent one use rare items I just multiply them and give them to everyone because otherwise I would just hoard them in case I end up not using a character down the line.

What's wrong with them?

They're enormous blocks of overloaded stats, permanent buff stacks and various other bullshit that makes absolutely no sense and basically destroys any semblance of strategy the games have because every single encounter boils down to buff stacking>Dispel>CC>autoattack to counteract all the statistical bullshit enemies get.
Mind you, pic related isn't even a boss, it's a random mook you can find in the first 5 hours of the game, actual bosses are way worse than that, but generally they tend to have one specific status weakness you can sort of use.
Owlcat's games have no actual "playstyles" anyway, and yes, you are forced to fight them head on, in many cases they even get their own scripted actions to fuck you over even further.

Filtered

Filtered by what exactly? The games are mindless, just dowload Bubbles' buff bot and they might as well be youtube videos since 90% of your clicks are going to be menu browsing for buffing, the more you turn up the difficulty the more this is true.
There's a reason nobody cares about Owlcat games and they did not leave any sort of mark, they're horribly amateurish, even Styg's crap ends up being more involved in terms of actual gameplay and Underrail is still incredibly primitive and one note.

FPBP
/thread

If every character development choice you make can complete the game's challenges equally

You don't need to complete the game's challenges equally, you just need to complete them. It's fine to win with a gimped character that you think better reflects you or is simply a reflection of your poor choices. That's the essence of what an RPG is.

A fun system is one that encourages experimentation, rewards understanding

Correct

and allows you to change your mind about decisions you made 20 hours ago once you gain that understanding.

Incorrect, you're just a scrub that doesn't want to live with the consequences of your actions

"Experimentation is good" and "all character decisions should be permanent" are mutually exclusive principles unless we're talking about a game where a full playthrough takes like an hour.

it's bad design but gamers are toddlers nowadays so you have to include it in your game

>seems to be more common in recent years, is this good or bad design?

It's not good or bad, it's a choice. If you remove respecing though it's much easier to accidentally have players brick their builds

"Experimentation is good" and "all character decisions should be permanent" are mutually exclusive principles

No, they aren't. They're only mutually exclusive principles if you're a retard that thinks you're owed the right to have a fully optimized build on your first playthrough after you experiment. A good player either gets better at calculating this kind of shit in advance or can make up for poor builds with skill. Only a shit player needs to go ask daddy to reassign points. Git gud.

character's stats, skills and all of that junk is meant to represent this character's background, growth and mental physical attributes up to this point, their childhood, adolescence and even adult hood

let's change it willy nilly

in a (supposed) rpg

You browns were less embarrassing when this dogshit site was dead.
This is why I always laugh at Anon Babble rpg opinions.