Villain is evil because... He doesn't want his wife to kill herself

What about the paintress fight made you think the demented old biddy could be worked with?
The entire thing is so fucking miserable, but none of it had to be that atrocious if his wife dealt with things like an adult instead of rejecting life and her family.

There's not really any way to regard Maelle's ending as the good one. The canvas is doomed to fade with her, while she wallows in a delusion of reclaiming the life with Verso that she'd lost. The world is basically back to the state it was at the start of the game, with everyone waiting in a surreal world for their demise. There just isn't a giant number there to help them count down anymore. This is not a happy ending.
The world doesn't revolve around you, you fucking retard. The entire world is painted. The paintress is its creator. Renoir is its devil. Maelle is their daughter.

that the actor who prefers his women big?

Women, he's talking about women. Who would rather live in a dream world than accept the harsh truth of reality and move on.

Painted people are actually just people as presented by the game. He's still guilty of genocide, he just doesn't consider the people he has killed people.

The writing presents the painted people as people. They are people. They have feelings, relationships, lives, souls. Saying they are fake and not real is just an abstraction you are imposing on the story, because that's certainly not how they are presented.

So yes, definitely, Painted Verso and Renoir are just unrepentant murderers.

Villain

The women of the family are the real villains.

Painted Renoir didn't really have any reason to kill the Lumierens. Because they were after Aline? Well what if he just said 'The Gommage is caused by Renoir, not the Paintress'. Then no conflict. Lumiere was on the side of perpetuating the world, just the same as Aline was.

There was literally no reason for them to be in conflict besides the narrative forcing drama.

he's a terrible husband and father
does he even have a job?

You saw the fucking MANSION they lived in, man. They're old money.

Yeah, he's a painter.

His wife told him if you spend too long in the canvas you are done, his wife spent way too long in the canvas, finally got kicked out of it. Now his beloved daughter babe wants to take a turn spending several decades trapped in the canvas.

ANY sensible dad would want to intervene and stop this madness.

so he's a worthless cunt that let his daughter get groomed by writers and kill his son
great dude

Yes. The intention of the character is to show he's a terrible father, despite his intention. That's the character.

Glad we agree.

I don't give a danm if the world revolves around me or not you fucking nigger monkey retard faggot. if you weren't such a godanm worthless nigger you would understand that other people exist besides you and would actually use respectful posting dictation before opening your mouth. But you demonstrate your niggerness by acting like an entitled piece of shit who thinks its okay to openly spoil others trying to play a game. And you fucking faggots have been doing this since 2016. That's almost 10 years!!!!

This is not a happy ending.

Verso in Maelle ending is Alicia in Verso ending.

It is amusing how much hard work did the writers had to do to fuck up unfuckable good ending.

/thread

Says the faggot on a video game board filled with men ignoring reality and wasting away

Her body her choice chud

Stopping someone from killing themselves is the most selfish thing you can do. You're only doing it so YOU can feel better about yourself.

but it could get better

Maybe but there's no guarantee of that, it could also get worse

it's just a permant solution to a temp probelm

How do you know their problem is temporary? It's also a solution to all future problems which could be worse.

If someone wants to legitimately kill themselves, and aren't just seeking attention, they should have that right and not be shamed by everyone around them.

Renoir is doing what's currently best for his family who he loves. What is best for his family means that everyone in the painting is killed forever. So it depends on your opinion, if you think the people of Lumiere have a soul(as most of the painters do) then even doing the best thing for his family is still pretty fucked up.

this family is so fucked up and renoir is useless
I wanna fuck clea

The story has no villains except perhaps the moment when Maelle avenges Gustav's death in a really roundabout and twisted way.

His issue is being a control freak

Incorrect

who is completely unwilling to work with people

There's nothing to work with. They're attempting suicide and he's making the hard choices.

can you stupid fucking faggots stop constantly trying to spoil parts of this game for me?

I left the site until I was done playing. You should have anticipated this.

he just doesn't consider the people he has killed people.

He does, and that's why he talks to Verso like a person and says it was a terrible thing for Aline to create him. Both Painted and Real Renoir correctly look at the conclusions available in this tragedy and pick the option that gives their family as much time together as possible.

Painted Renoir didn't really have any reason to kill the Lumierens.

If they die to Nevrons, Renoir gains the chroma. If they die to pRenoir, their chroma goes to Aline.

he's a terrible husband and father

Incorrect.

so he's a worthless cunt that let his daughter get groomed by writers and kill his son

let

Like everything else Alicia does, it probably happened behind his back.

Stopping someone from killing themselves is the most selfish thing you can do

It's incredible to me that none of you have a moral framework that assigns roles in families or society, and thus fathers appear as villains while they're saving lives at great expense to themselves.

At any point real Renoir is portrait as the villain.

Sure, but his "my way or highway" approach actually causes more trouble, especially when dealing with Alicia. Who could've been talked down if he wasn't so rash in trying to destroy everything this very second.

just spent the last century trying to help his wife get over her crack addiction

his daughter comes up and says "Hey dad is it okay if I do a little bit of crack for a while? I tried some and I really really REALLY liked the crack a lot. Don't worry I totally won't get addicted, trust me bro (she's already addicted)"

If you think saying "no, do not do crack, stop now" is unreasonable in this situation, you have brain damage

And the end result is that your daughter now hates you and kicks you out. Good job.

She doesn't hate him.
And in the end your fake son did it for you anyway.
Renoir was right and won.

No stable person thinks that his great plan of mangling his wives pets would have worked out either

I'd like to hear your 900 IQ plan of being able to force her out of the painting that somehow doesn't involve having more chroma than her.

i didn't play the game until 3 weeks after it released and i purposely did not come here for the entire duration until i beat it

All the people who are talking tough about the real world would kill themselves if they were maimed, burned to shit cripples that can't breath without being in pain and who's skin constantly rips all over the place.

he just doesn't consider the people he has killed people.

You might be paying more attention than the NPCs who think that the painted people are fake, but not much more. You're right about the rest, though.

it's like drugs mkay

Maybe stick to food analogies.

He can enter again after handling the writer stuff. Clea hid the picture only to prevent her mother to reenter and should tell him where it is.
He already beat his own teacher even if it took long. Him and Clea surely can kick out his daughter again who wasn't even able to hold her own when entering the painting.

Except Aline found it and charged right back in the moment she could, basically committing suicide right in front of everyone. Everybody seems to be forgetting Verso's look of horror when she comes back. That's the moment he definitely decides the painting must go.

Painted people are actually just people as presented by the game.

Nah, specially not the family and the first group of Lumierians.
You're laboring on the weird ass idea that, in regards to her family, Aline made baby painted Renoir, had him grow up, then marry him, then gave birth to baby painted Clea, then baby painted Verso 4 years later, then baby painted Alicia 10 years later who was either born already deformed or Aline went and burned her.
It's more likely that she made them all of the ages that they were in real life and just filled their heads with the thoughts and memories to make them believe they had been alive for that long. Same deal with Lumierians.

Clea hid the picture

Alicia hid the picture. Clea just comments that the choice of hiding spot was clever, but won't last as their mom will find it eventually (with eventually being lightning fast).

He can enter again after handling the writer stuff

Thankfully, it will only take 1000 years in canvas.

I wonder if deep down Renoir recognizes that there is nothing for his daughter in the real world.

same deal with the Lumierians

Incorrect. Lumierians are painted people with their own lives and way of living. Hell Maelle literally proves you wrong, she gets reincarnated in the middle of the disaster to random painted couple. It's true that the pDessendres are painted that way, and immortal for the same reason, but painted people are real as said by Versos soul fragment.

Incorrect.

Aline painted a Paris full of babies and waited for them all to grow up, also teaching them science, math, religion, engineering, etc. along the way

How stupid are you?

Family is using heroin

Dad hides the drugs

He is a villain

How retarded do you have to be to even think like that?

Projecting this hard

Anon...

That scene was hilarious because of the contrast of Maelle being happy her mom was coming back in to commit suicide and Verso being horrified the lengths Aline would go to to kill herself.

Family is using heroin

Murder everyone in the country producing heroin despite the people not being responsible

He is not a villain

Renoir is an allegory for Israel, and the painted world Palestine. Look it up on reddit Anon Babblegaming

Murder everyone in the country producing heroin despite the people not being responsible

The people are the heroin though.

more like

family can't cope with child dying

dad decides to burn out all the photos and toys the child had

Hooray, mom is a psycho!

Oh god mom is a psycho!

It physically poisons them, as evidence by the paint in their eyes. They do it to protect their emotions from the real world by blinding themselves to the real world. Drugs are a good metaphor here.

Your moms rancid pussy is like heroin to me

It physically poisons them, as evidence by the paint in their eyes

It's just a sign that painter powers are active. Clea starts out with them on when you first meet her.

based

his "my way or highway" approach actually causes more trouble

No it doesn't. Her way is lying to herself and her father. His way is engaging with reality. Nothing about his approach drove her deeper into delusion because she was already fully immersed in delusion.

I was kind of in the same boat. I knew ahead of time people were saying he was 100% in the right. I thought to myself "This asshole killed our entire expedition for seemingly no reason. How the hell is he in the right?"
By the time I finally finished the game, I thought that he actually was 100% in the right.

The photos and toys the women have been using as heroin.

Expedition 33

I have been hearing that name pop up recently, how is the game itself?

No one inside the painting is ever shown with that effect until that very end. Alicia uses painting power to unstop time after Palicia stops time and she doesn't get the face.

The paint in the face is, thus, used precisely to imply she's lost herself and is suffering from consequences of abuse in the final cutscene of the Maelle ending.

Actually really good
I was sceptical due to the nonstop shilling, but it truly was a great game

Drug cartels are not responsible for drug problems

What manner of profound retardation is this?

People are discussing the story and characters here, but the actual game itself is phenomenal as well. Everything about this game is really good, gameplay included.

Because of Anon Babble osmosis I'm pretty sure I knew the entirety of P4 plot before I even played the game. Still enjoyed it

A love letter to PSX/PS2 era Square games. On its own the game could be defined as "mid" if you have no problem with current FF direction. If you do however then the game is great.

Innocent people living their lives are responsible for Aline being addicted to her painted family inside their world

Leftoid trannies like you are the reason shits falling apart

Ain't nothing innnocent about what they did to painted Verso and painted Alicia.

Innocent people

They are Aline's chroma

Sins of my father

Time to put on some chains, tattered clothing and head out and deeply apologize to black communities to take responsibility

Why would I? My race didn't enslave them. We didn't even encounter Africans until long after America came to be.

Your race

Trannies arent a race dipshit cocksucker apologist freak

Retard tries to do "sins of my father" shit

shocked that not everyone on the board is white

resorts to calling people tranny to cope

lol

This isn't about people of Lumiere, this about the Canvas that is being used as an escape mechanism for Dessendre family to avoid therapy. I'm not happy about Lumiere being a collateral in all this but I will not let them be used as a shield to prevent things that needs be done. If you really want to hate someone then hate the painters for letting the situation go out of control.

Go fuck yourself gay tranny SEA monkey faggot happy pride month cocksucker genocide apologist

mental breakdown

Are these LGBT genocide apologists in the room with us, anon?

The writing presents the painted people as people.

Unfortunately when Malicia becomes the main character, we are shown that they are not real, objectively. They should have avoided showing us the real outside world if they wanted a really good debate about whether the canvas people are real or not. Because they explicitly tell the audience that they are not.

He's not evil, the Final Boss looks like an Epic Showdown against the Big Bad Guy because it's from the point of view of Maelle.

Yeah, even Act 3's narrative doesn't bother with "are the painted people real or not" outside of maybe a couple lines in sidequests.

You do realize that Alicia, Aline, Renoir etc are all fictional too right?
There is no difference between the painters living in their 'real world', and the painted people living in the painted world. Both are fictional, but behave as if they are real within their own universe.

In fact, no fictional characters are real, yet we still grow fond of them

but we they are fictional even in-universe

That just adds another layer of meta-fiction. Who is to say that the painter's "real world" isnt just an illusionary matrix made by The Writers in-universe?

I unironically stopped opening Anon Babble for two weeks while I played this game because fags just post endgame spoilers straight onto the catalog. Just cut the cord nigga

Because act 3 heavily focuses on family drama.

He can enter again after handling the writer stuff.

See, that's exactly why I picked Maelle's ending. I don't want her go back to that shitty family. She's already traumatized and his family is all to eager to engage in another conflict because her oldest sister is bored.
That can't be good for her mental health.

its just dad chasing his daughter with a belt while throwing Halloween masks and a blow up doll at her

Clea is not a villain

Who is to say that the painter's "real world" isnt just an illusionary matrix made by The Writers in-universe?

It would be funny if the sequel reveals that it is (or at least the Dessendre family are the creation of the Writers) and this blows up the whole moral dillema.

You do realize that Alicia, Aline, Renoir etc are all fictional too right?

No, see I iam able to suspend my disbelief because I am invested in the characters. To me, the Dessendre family is real, they are now anchoring me to this world. And we are shown that the canvas people were creations of Aline, who is real in the universe of the game that I am playing.

That just adds another layer of meta-fiction. Who is to say that the painter's "real world" isnt just an illusionary matrix made by The Writers in-universe?

Because the writers need to trick a little girl into burning their house down instead of using the writer equivalent of a gommage to get rid of a painter.
Basically, "why does god need a starship"?

Not a single character is evil in this game.

inb4 b-but Maelle is addicted to the painting and forces people to play the piano

She's a teenage burn victim who blames herself for her brother's death. Of course she resorts to escapeism.

inb4 b-but Verso lied to "people"

The "people" in question are not real. They are basically more elaborate Sims

You do realize that Alicia, Aline, Renoir etc are all fictional too right?

Within the universe of the story, there are canvas world, where magical beings live, where death isn't death, where painters can make people immortal, ageless, where painters are themselves immortal, etc etc.
You cannot add this universe with this much supernatural bullshit and expect the audience to not feel differently towards this world than the one that is largely (even if not an exact 1:1) the same as ours.
The game presents different worlds with different stakes. Both being fictional to the player is not the point.

She did nothing wrong, just cleaning some mold taking over her and Verso's painting

Both being fictional to the player is not the point.

yeah this is what I see most people saying is the point of the game, but to me that is the midwit take. IN THE UNIVERSE OF THE GAME ITSELF, Lumiere is not real. It's not even debatable. Now you CAN argue that the "real" status of them doesn't matter because they still have a story and you care about them. I agree with that. But we know for a fact (in the game) they are not real. And it's ok to be sad about fake people in a made up world, but objectively they matter less.

Verso's soul literally calls them people. He says he considers them real. You can think they aren't real, but if a god creates people and gives them life and souls, they are still real even if the same god can delete them any moment they want.

never visits Francois

She's a villain

Basically, "why does god need a starship"?

If I were to come up with the writer powers, I would say that they can't nuke everyone just because, because their narrative has to be consistent. It's like in the Matrix, you can't interfere with the pets too much otherwise, they might rebel.
But they can manipulate the fate of a given individual using the cause-effect approach.

oh no, person grew up and stopped playing with her toys

Verso's soul isn't a real person either, he's a fragment of Verso's soul stuck in a canvas. He has no perspective on what a real person really is. He has never experienced reality, he cannot even exist in reality. To him, the canvas is the full extent of the world.

villain is evil because...

he killed millions of innocent lives

ftfy

Game made me care for fake world for 2/3 game then suddenly pulled a twist which should [in the writers mind] make me care for heartless bastards outside just because they are real.

lolno your writing sucks family drama was introduced too late

muh Verso

muh Maelle

muh Renoir

ALINE is the one who fucked everything up, like, damn bitch you just had to listen to your husband for one fucking second and the entire Canvas would've been saved, great fucking job dumbass

trying to make Anon Babble make a man take accountability for his mistakes

This place is to filled with cock-lusting daddy issues homosexuals to ever be able to see even the things the game outright states to them. If these unhinged and deluded threads are of any indication.

Yeah but we know our Verso isn't real either. And I sympathize with his struggle, even more so than the REAL people in the outside world but nigga he aint real. The rules of this world make it explicit. There are real people and not real people. By showing us that Lumiere is a world inside a world, the devs showed us that there is a hierarchy of how much everyone matters.

lolno your writing sucks family drama was introduced too late

I understand why you can feel that, but to me the family drama was already there, it just wasn't clear (intentionally so). When it became unveiled, it all fit, all made sense, and I immediatly shifted my focus towards the Dessendres.

When the toy can cry and feel hurt when you don't visit them ever again, at least have the decency to make sure they can never feel again.

ChatGPT matters much more to me than you ever would though.

because their narrative has to be consistent

"And then Verso had sudden arrythmic death syndrome and died".

Aline is true villain for bringing humans and their suffering to place they never belonged in

Who is to say that the painter's "real world" isnt just an illusionary matrix made by The Writers in-universe?

This would actually make me value the canvas people more. Then there would be nested worlds and that is really intriguing to me, but that is not the understanding that I came away with.

didnt beat the game cause i lost interest but he killed the protagonist therefore hes a faggot.

b-but a-actually

i dont care about your schizo shit story about painters or writers or whatever the fuck, he deserves to die for killing gustave.

I can't help but imagine the Painters/Writers war being just a battle of shitposting

haha you fucking loser, look at this inflation art of you i've just painted

well i'm currently writing a fanfiction where you get fucked in the ass by a giganigger

And that is why you will be melted down and turned into protein for consumption when I am president.

Or I will just use you as an extra module to process mild autism for GPT. We'll see.

Anon. Having a noble goal isn't mutually exclusive with being an evil cunt. You're god damn retarded for even suggesting otherwise. His goal is fine, it's his methods that are utterly abhorrent and indefensible, and "no stable person" thinks the people in the canvas aren't alive.

All of the Dessendres are the villains in this story if only because of their complete inability to empathize with one another. Well, maybe aside from Alicia. Alicia was a victim in all of this, being treated so poorly by her family, she finally snapped and decided she prefers a life in a canvas.

They are alive

That's such a non-statement though. What does it even mean to be alive in this context? They certainly don't experience life like living things outside of the canvas.

All this bullshit happened because he was too retarded to hire a therapist.

I sort of like the theory where the writers are the creators of the "real" world and that they are their antagonists even though the theory has some major hangups (like Maelle being wrong for associating with them, implying they exist within the world)

Paintings in the manor depicting story events before they could ever be known/happening like the monolith 33 a full 16 years before it happens

Verso's date of death being december 33, a date that doesn't exist

Magic floating canvases in Renoir's workshop in the real world

The view of the Eifel Tower at Verso's grave cannot exist in actual Paris

Therapists are a jewish scam.

What does it even mean

It means killing them by the thousands is morally abhorrent. Why did you need to be told this?

Do they explain how time flows in painted world?

How many days/weeks has passed in real world for Alicia when Maelle lived for 16 years in the painting. Or did they not explain it?

throughout the story both Lune and Sciel experience things they have never experienced before, meet people they have never met before and seen the world with their own eyes

They have more life in their lives than most NEETs on Anon Babble have

antagonist != villain

Not specifically but it can't have been long. She spent at least 16 years in there and doesn't look a day older in Verso's ending.

It is clear unclear, maybe 1 year in canvas is few hours in real world because mansion is still standing under Clea's care in monolith year 49

It means killing them by the thousands is morally abhorrent

That is not a definition of life, that's a moral stance you take for them because you believe their life has inherent value.

Renoir is lying. Somehow canvas affected Aline and Alicia bodies but his was totally fine? Really sus.

He could just end the entire conflict by telling Alicia that he won't erase the painting once she gets out. He's the one responsible for the entire situation. There literally wouldn't be the game if he had triple digit IQ.
The only morally correct person in the entire story is Clea. She's the only Dessadre who has sensible goals.

Clea: I need to stop my retarded family from wasting time while writers are out there to get us. I sure hope they won't burst into our house and kill everyone while everyone else is fucking around in the painting.

Renoir: I need to destroy my sons masterpiece because I can't get my addict wife under control. If writers burst into our house and kill everyone while I'm fucking around in the painting so be it.

Aline: I'll just let video game addiction control my life. If writers burst into our house and kill everyone while I'm fucking around in the painting so be it.

Alicia: I need to protect my brother's canvas regardless of how everyone else feels about it. If writers burst into our house and kill everyone while I'm fucking around in the painting so be it.

Sure Clea is also fine with erasing the painted reason but she does so because of practical reasons instead of being fucked in the head. Also her retarded family forced her hand.

I think Aline's been inside much longer than him, and I think Alicia is just so weak physically and as a painter that she gets affected faster.

He could just end the entire conflict by telling Alicia that he won't erase the painting once she gets out

This is exactly what he does. It doesn't work, Maelle will never leave willingly unless it's erased.

Being the one in control of the Canvas for a long time affects the body, he wasn't the one in control for pretty much 99% of the time in there

why didnt Aline just outsmart her addiction while grieving the loss of her son

why aren't the characters acting like logistical robots always making the most optimal decisions

Every day I thank god I wasn't born a retard like this anon

Why do we need a "definition of life"? You're really desperate for this angle of sophistry aren't you?

Because you believe their life has inherent value

As opposed to it being inherently meaningless, yes. As that is an absurd and infantile belief only created to justify a preconception. Furthermore any set of rules of concepts that suggest the painted people are meaningless can also be applied to the Dessendres.

The root of all this games worlds problems is women

it really is all aline's fault but the rest of the family are guilty of making the situation much much worse than it needed to be. in other words, the dessendre family are all just terrible people in general

Aline spent an amount of time in the canvas long enough for Renoir to be worried about her before going in and causing the fracture. That means Aline has spent longer in the canvas prior to being booted out, and the strain from a second insertion without any reasonable amount of rest made her condition even worse.

This is exactly what he does. It doesn't work, Maelle will never leave willingly unless it's erased.

Now he doesn't once he's out she outright tells Verso that he will erase the painting as soon as she's out.

why aren't the characters acting like logistical robots always making the most optimal decisions

One of them is. I'm not saying others are badly written. They're just wrong about everything.

Why do we need a "definition of life"?

I need a definition of life, and one that differentiates between life inside the canvas and life outside the canvas, because you used the "people in the canvas are alive" as an argument to why their destruction would be abhorent.

Furthermore any set of rules of concepts that suggest the painted people are meaningless can also be applied to the Dessendres.

I don't see how. Nothing suggests life outside the canvas operates such as life inside the canvas, or the whole drama around Verso's death wouldn't exist. Just repaint him back into life (like people of Lumiere in Maelle's ending). Except that does not work, because these universes operate under significantly different rules.

but his was totally fine?

No? You can see him weakened and coughing right before the final fight. He is obviously tired too.

Now he doesn't once he's out she outright tells Verso that he will erase the painting as soon as she's out.

Because Alicia's always been such a good judge of character, right?

Oh these writers can be trusted. What do you mean they only used me to set our house on fire?

Verso papa will listen to me we can save the painting. What do you mean you're going to destroy the source of maman's addiction?

Papa's totally going to destroy the canvas Verso, I just know it!

she outright tells Verso that he will erase the painting as soon as she's out.

Yes, she says it. Not Renoir. Alicia cannot know what he will do, she's assuming it.

Why are you using your free time here instead of beating the game? Skill issue

Papa's totally going to destroy the canvas Verso, I just know it!

Verso doesn't call her out so I guess she wasn't wrong.

I need a definition of life so I can apply sophistry to it more than I already just did!

Yeah, called it. Find a new angle kid because this one isn't working.

I don't see how

If your conclusion is "I am functionally retarded and it's pointless to keep talking to me" then I suppose we're done here.

Alicia is also a full blown liar through and through by this point and Renoir has only ever kept his word. Gee I wonder who we should believe in this situation :^)

Verso knows arguing with someone so delusional is meaningless, the fact that he gives up doesn't mean he agrees with her you dumbass.

You have no criteria to differentiate life outside and inside the canvas, which is why you're so confused when people rightfully call the canvas life "fake", and instead you rely on chimping out and calling other people low IQ.

You guys know that if Alicia dies in the canvas Renoir would just end up burning it anyway, right?

the cutscene where Painted Renoir sends Maelle to the monolith

Aline is a bitch and tells Maelle to go home and leave her alone

Renoir is only concerned for her safety

Real Renoir is the hero of the story... by a lot.

Replaying the game

The first time you see Verso's soul he just talks about how he wants to have fun with everyone again, even mentions renoir and clea

Fuck man... it hurts so much...

reminder that lumiere is aline's creation and thus the responsibility is hers to decide. her inability to manage or maintain lumiere already invalidates their right to exist

You have no criteria to differentiate life outside and inside the canvas

Correct, there is no such difference. So if they aren't different then killing thousands inside the canvas is morally abhorrent. Wow, you figured it out!

which is why you're so confused when people rightfully call the canvas life "fake"

? Anon are you lost? That claim only makes sense if the life inside and outside the canvas IS different you imbecile, something you didn't even attempt to conceptualize or argue for because there is no reasonable argument to be made for it.

and instead you rely on chimping out and calling other people low IQ.

"Chimping out"? That's exactly how I'd describe the post I'm replying to, and me correctly identifying you as an imbecile doesn't affect the discourse around it, it's infantile to focus on just that in lieu of the actual rhetoric, you dumb fuck.

Alicia is also a full blown liar through and through by this point and Renoir has only ever kept his word. Gee I wonder who we should believe in this situation :^)

I wonder if we should believe that Renoir will not erase the painting even though that's his entire role for the entirety on the game and the only time when he's not trying to do that is when he's prevented from doing so by other characters. Guess we should just ignore the fact that no other character in the game ever questions it.

Where is Aline in Maelle's ending, anon?

She's outside of the painting. Most likely knocked out by Clea and locked in the basement until she gets over her video game addiction.

Verso knows arguing with someone so delusional is meaningless

Yeah.. and it's clear with the Maelle ending that she really did huff all the paint fumes.

you have to turn up the volume. shes the voice saying that shes shitting herself

Recuperating so she can last more than 5 minutes inside the hypertime dimension.

bro just trust me, Maelle's ending is the good ending for her, she can absolutely stop at any time

muh six gorillion

Lumiere's population was probably in the thousands by year 33. Probably like 20k max. Are you a jew?

She just wanted Lune to have a boyfriend, please understand

Maelle's ending is the good ending for her

yes

she can absolutely stop at any time

why would she leave the paradise

Verso died so Maelle could waste away in a Canvas

OK boo.

Because if she doesn't leave and take a breather every once in a while she will die faster than she would otherwise.

but if she leaves it's gonna be a guhmillion years in the painting when she comes back

Nigger painters can stop time, we see them do it in the game. Just hit the pause button you retard.

Correct, there is no such difference.

So why isn't Verso resurrected outside of the canvas? It's almost like there's a difference.

That claim only makes sense if the life inside and outside the canvas IS different you imbecile, something you didn't even attempt to conceptualize or argue for because there is no reasonable argument to be made for it.

I conceptualized it, you're just too retarded to read posts you answer. I've said in more than one ocasion that a fundamental difference between life inside and outside of the canvas is how it can be remade in the canvas, but cannot be remade ( and tampered with) in the real world, both our real world and the real world of the setting. And this matters. Not only from the perspective of the audience (that is loses appreciation for life in the fiction if it can be remade with the flick of a wrist, as the dragon ball devaluation of death shows), but also from the perspective of the characters, in this very game, that start claiming death isn't death.

All things that flew right by your dumb skull, of course. It's just the same. Oh, and actually, the real world matter less, because your feefees about muh expeditioners.

I literally stayed off Anon Babble until I beat it and stayed away from all video game news. You're loss.

fuck that faggot ;)
there is nothing outside for her except pain, again why would she leave the paradise

there is nothing outside for her except pain

Because 15 minutes of pain outside could very easily translate to 20 more years of bliss inside. What part of that don't you understand you retard?

So why isn't Verso resurrected outside of the canvas? It's almost like there's a difference.

Why are you asking me, anon? You're the one trying to make a point. What does the fact that Verso cannot be revived outside the painting change about the basic fact that the people inside and outside the canvas are alive? In fact you haven't even established the basic elements to this claim, such as the fact that the people inside the canvas could be revived (they can't, they are merely new versions of Maelle's making. This is irrefutably true and you'd know this if you paid even the least bit of attention to the writing. Maelle cannot paint the same things Aline painted, they would not have her soul)

And Verso outside the canvas can be remade in much the same way, Maelle just needs to get knocked up and have a kid. Bam, new Verso, at least in terms of "life", no?

I conceptualized it

Lol. Ok kid. And you armwrestled a gundam while you were at it, I'm sure. Try and make sure it's there for everyone else to see too then, next time.

I've said in more than one ocasion that a fundamental difference between life inside and outside of the canvas is how it can be remade in the canvas

Which is a hilariously futile claim because you've done nothing to establish its merits. Even if true (and it isn't, as I pointed out above) then it doesn't actually mean anything, because life taking different forms isn't a disqualifier, to even suggest as much is absurd. Which brings us back to the motif of this conversation: You're a simpleton idiot.

Ah yes, what awaits the rich girl who can create magical worlds on a whim has "nothing" but pain awaiting her, and in fact if such a life awaits you then you should just kill yourself because pain definitely means your life is now just no longer worth living :^)

Maelle cannot paint the same things Aline painted, they would not have her soul

Not that anon but if you paid attention to the game at all, you'd know that the only non opinion mentions of a soul are 1) a piece of the canvas' artist leaves it behind, wherein it paints inside a section of the painting that painted creations should not enter and 2) every time you enter the canvas you leave a minute fragment of your soul behind.
At no point is there any mention of the painted people having souls, much less having a piece of Aline's soul.

What does the fact that Verso cannot be revived outside the painting change about the basic fact that the people inside and outside the canvas are alive?

Are you really this bloody stupid? It changes the fact that in one world (the real world) death is a stake, and that inside the canvas, it is not. Death doesn't matter inside the canvas. The characters can die and come back a second later. The characters can have died ten years ago and be magically brought back. This is no longer the same concept of life that we, the audience, share. This is a fundamental shift in the concept of life (and of death), but you pretend it doesn't matter only to fit your argument, that life inside the canvas is "just the same".

Maelle cannot paint the same things Aline painted, they would not have her soul)

Pure headcanon. The game never makes a distinction between people being resurrected or remade inside the canvas.

And Verso outside the canvas can be remade in much the same way, Maelle just needs to get knocked up and have a kid. Bam, new Verso, at least in terms of "life", no?

Too retarded to answer. Unpaint yourself.

But anon, you have so much to live for. Escapism bad. Come back to reality!

If they die to nevrons their chroma gets locked in their corpse. It doesn't go to reinoir though technically it's in his favor because it isn't coming back to aline.

It changes the fact that in one world (the real world) death is a stake, and that inside the canvas, it is not.

So? What does that matter unless and until someone is brought back to life? Do the deaths in the canvas somehow not matter because they *could* be brought back regardless of the fact that they are not? What does that have to do with Renoir's morality, who had every intention of permanently killing them? You are talking nonsense you dumb fuck, you are making distinctions without a difference and as I said from the very beginning, you can offer nothing but utterly infantile sophistry.

This is no longer the same concept of life that we, the audience, share. This is a fundamental shift in the concept of life (and of death)

See this shit? How can anyone sensible write something so utterly absurd? You established a potential (false) fundamental shift in the concept of DEATH not the concept of LIFE and you are so moronically conflating the two that I wonder how the fuck anyone can be this functionally retarded.

Pure headcanon. The game never makes a distinction between people being resurrected or remade inside the canvas.

On the contrary. See Verso in Maelle's ending. See the way Verso describes bringing back Lune and Sciel (people tend to miss this, but he compares the process of recreating Lune and Sciel to Renoir's creation of the Axons, things that are distinctly NOT the same as the people they were derivative of.) See the fact that Maelle is significantly aged in her ending, and is the only one to be such. See the fact that Maelle is able to revive Pierre, a man she never knew. See also existences like White Nevrons, something that illustrates how even copies and recreations can deviate severely from their originals. You didn't pay attention to the story at all, and now you're talking horseshit that doesn't even make logical sense on its own merits.

Anon they say that every artist leaves a piece of their soul in their work

Anon they say that every artist leaves a piece of their soul in their work

Yes, aka the piece of Verso's soul in Verso's canvas.
He has soul proprietorship of it. Hell, Clea tells you in the tower that she painted half the canvas with Verso and yet only his soul is the only one in the chamber painting.

You actually do if you stop feeling sorry for yourself for 5 minutes. There are meatloafs out there who had more dignity and accomplished more than you ever did. You're not making an argument, you're only making excuses.

You're the one clicking the threads, idiot. Go fucking finish the game.

AKA: my headcanon

Right. Or it really is just exactly what they say it is, and not what you turned it into.

headcanon

You literally see Verso's soul painting the place in the ending you retard.

He is not evil

Anon they say that every artist leaves a piece of their soul in their work

At no point anywhere does Alicia comment about the nevrons having Clea's soul, or the Axons having Renoir's soul, or the people of Lumiere having Aline's soul. The only time she ever talks about the soul of family members is the entire canvas having Verso's soul in it.

Because 15 minutes of pain outside could very easily translate to 20 more years of bliss inside.

Nah because daddy will make sure she won't get back
in her mind obviously
there is a reason to leave, but i will let you figure it out

in fact if such a life awaits you then you should just kill yourself because pain definitely means your life is now just no longer worth living

compared to paradise?

All of this is bs anyway because Im sure renoir loves his daughter enough to try more diplomatic approach next. I'm sure in sequel if they show us her, she'll be out.

the only thing you owe them, is to live you enjoy.

While not being outright stated by the character as you say, the colour of the leaves that float around when an axon, nevron or character is "killed" are directly colour coded to the creator of specific creations in the painting

So you do, and you decided to write all sort of meanings and implications that aren't actually there onto that scene. We also see the same soul fragments throughout the game. We see fragments of Renoir, Aline and even Clea, but you decided to ignore those entirely or dismiss them for whatever excuse you needed.

Ah, so the final aim in their lives is to paint themselves a paradise and exist there forever. Cool story boo.

Are those other souls shown literally painting the canvas or only Verso's?

Also the fact that the painting is destroyed when Verso's soul is finally stopped from painting is quite explicit dude.

This can be questioned a bit in Maelles ending because it's not entirely clear if she's "forcing" Verso's soul to continue painting or if she has taken over those duties entirely, to be fair.

There were alternatives, like actually bothering to convince Clea to 2v1 Aline instead of eliciting some half assed help from her.

are directly colour coded to the creator of specific creations in the painting

Eh, not really.
Verso's final gommage is red petals, while his immortality waning is creme, even though both of these things were created by Aline.

He shouldn't have entered the canvas to begin with. Letting her live for a while normally in an un-shattered Lumiere with her painted family had a better chance of her getting over her grief than making her spend that time trapped on top of the Monolith.

Are those other souls shown literally painting the canvas or only Verso's?

Almost like the canvas and those that exist within it are not entirely the same category of things. Shocking!

Also the fact that the painting is destroyed when Verso's soul is finally stopped from painting is quite explicit dude.

Yes. Again, the Canvas and the things within it are not the same. Shall I remind you that Maelle offered to paint Lune a Canvas inside the Canvas? That would also be gone once Verso's soul stops painting, though it would also absolutely have Maelle's soul even by your own rules, ergo your entire system of thought falls apart on this issue.

This can be questioned a bit in Maelles ending because it's not entirely clear if she's "forcing" Verso's soul to continue painting or if she has taken over those duties entirely, to be fair.

It's not something that can be "questioned" as they are fairly explicit about it. She is trying to stop Verso from stopping the kid painting, if she never had to do that then why bother interrupting Verso at all? To suggest she can simply "take over" for it would remove all meaning from that scene.

If you're not going to help make someone's life better, you don't get to tell them how to cope with their reality

Fuck off. He's right and you know it.
If you were in Alicia's place and could live in fully immersive VR then you fucking would.

It's almost like he knows from experience that things wouldn't work out that way! Crazy!

Letting her live for a while normally in an un-shattered Lumiere with her painted family had a better chance of her getting over her grief

He entered the painting precisely because the time she's been in there is lengthy enough for Renoir, who the game tells you that he used to be a canvas addict, to be worried.
The fact that he stepped in means that the amount of time was already beyond "for a while".

Aline has more experience than he does.

At saving addicts, maybe. But Renoir has more experience being one.

Considering they spent another 60+ years in there, he clearly jumped the gun.

He's coming from this from the perspective of having been lost and saved by her before, it might be one of those things where you can only see the correct answer from an outside perspective.

Even though she saved him similarly before, she can't see it happening to herself.

Considering they spent another 60+ years in there

They spent another 67 years in there because Renoir wasn't hardcore set on shitting himself when he was the addict.

All he did was trigger a 60 years long Woman Moment where she refused to leave out of spite.
Remember what pRenoir said when Verso told him he's already lived a lifetime? He said he doesn't want just any lifetime. He wants one where his family isn't torn apart. That's what Aline wanted too and would have already had if Renoir just let her be like Clea did.

like Clea did.

Did you just watch youtube clips or something?
Clea was on Renoir's side.
She overwrote painted Clea to become a nevron factory.
She modified the nevrons, which she originally created for him and Verso to have adventures fighting against, into creatures that corrupt Aline's chroma when they kill Lumierans.
She modified Simon to kill the hauler so that he can enter the monolith.

pRenoir is on the side of Aline

Did you just watch youtube clips or something?

Did you? The only reason she did any of that was because she wanted to get Renoir out so she doesn't have to fight the war alone. She literally says she would have just left Aline in there otherwise.

Did YOU watch only clips? She states her father is as obsessed with Aline as she is with the paiting. She chose the path of least resistance in her view to get him to fight the writers. She states she is fine with Aline grieving her way, but can't convince Renoir to let her be.

She literally says she would have just left Aline in there otherwise.

Because she's pissed off that Aline abdicated her responsibilities and Clea's left picking up the slack. You can pick up on how much Aline pisses her off when she makes the comment about how Aline WAS head of the painters council and how Clea's the one that's hauling ass to ensure that painters survive.

He murders millions.

of Sims characters.

If there was a character in the sims that murdered everyone else he would also be a bad character.

If my dad deleted my Sims save because I spent 24hrs playing the game and ruining myself, no one would call him a bad guy.

I'm replaying the game rn - can someone tell me why Verso was acting so shady in Old Lumière?

No, I'm pretty sure anyone sensible would still call him an asshole for it. What a bizarre claim to make.

Renoir isn't your dad. He is a video game character. He is just as real as any of the painted people who are also video game characters.

By your logic there are no good or bad characters.

She states she is fine with Aline grieving her way

What part of

Grief is no excuse. We're all grieving.

I don't have time to coddle her. And before Verso died she would have said the same.

Sounds like her being okay with Aline running off into the painting?
She's trying to keep painters from dying to writers, and Aline's the stronger painter between her and Renoir.
Why the fuck would she not want the stronger gun out there fighting with her?

He figured Aline would open the door for Maelle but not him, so he let Maelle approach alone.

Because he didn't think that the manor would open up if they see her with Maelle.

Something about getting Aline to open the door to the manor for Maelle/Alicia

Maybe, but not a bad guy.

It's more similar to if your father nuked New York because his wife ran away to there.

No, he'd still be a bad guy. The ends to not justify the means at all, which is weird to need to explain to someone who is supposedly over 18.

Yeah.
Also that your mom made New York.
And she can bring New Yorkers back from the dead.

spending all day shitposting is effectively killing yourself

And she can bring New Yorkers back from the dead.

No she can make a different new york with different people.

No, stop with stupid hyperboles.
The ends do in fact justify the means. If someone shoved you to stop a speeding vehicle from hitting you, would they be a bad guy?

No, stop with stupid hyperboles.

You are the one understating it to the point of absurdity.

Aline is the one most qualified to bring everyone back as is because she'd be the one to know their true essence as well as looks, so as far as painting goes she's got them both on essence AND verisimilitude.

And yet it is said multiple times that Verso is not Verso.

No, stop with stupid hyperboles.

The ends do in fact justify the means. If someone shoved you to stop a speeding vehicle from hitting you, would they be a bad guy?

Hmmm. I sense a discrepancy between these two statements. It's quite the hyperbole to compare a shove to permanently destroying something someone worked on, to suggest they are remotely equivalent. Your dad preventing you from using the computer would be a reasonable means to the end of stopping you wasting your life on the sims. Him destroying something you put hours of your life into is not. You really are a complete idiot if this is how you justify your already asinine line of 'reasoning', if we can even call it that.

Nothing's being understated. Painted people aren't real and don't have the same value as people in reality.

Verso isn't an OC painted person, retard.
Moreover, Renoir himself states that painted Verso is Aline's finest work, which would mean, coming from Verso's dad, that he's damn near the real mcCoy.

Verso isn't an OC painted person, retard.

Why does that matter?

Moreover, Renoir himself states that painted Verso is Aline's finest work, which would mean, coming from Verso's dad, that he's damn near the real mcCoy.

Yet he is still not Verso. Because the actual Verso is dead.

Painted people aren't real and don't have the same value as people in reality.

They are as real as the people outside the canvas.

Why does that matter?

Because painted Verso being based off a real person means their essence is not a fruit of Aline's imagination. Instead they tell you he's made of her memories of him.

Aline did not directly create any of the people of Lumiere. They were born from other previous people of Lumiere.
So their essence would also not be Aline's imagination.

Even if we accept this premise, which is blatantly and absurdly wrong, the fact that their value isn't "the same" doesn't mean it has no value at all, and destroying it is still a vile act.

This is completely wrong. You're told she gave Verso his memories, not that he was made based off of them.

You're told she gave Verso his memories, not that he was made based off of them.

Learn to read.

No hyperbole there, just an example of ends justifying the means.
Dad preventing you from using the computer won't do shit, since that'd just result in you spending all day obsessing over how to get back on the computer.

Why a women always the root of all problems…

Marika I’m also looking at you, dumb bitch

No they aren't.
Their only value is the chroma they're made out of it. And I'm pretty sure chroma doesn't have much value outside of the painting.

No they aren't.

Why not?

Here's one thing that says x, but I'll ignore all the other times they say y because that's more convenient to my narrative!

It's funny because this also calls him a blatant copy built off HER memories, which proves that it is in fact her imagination that he is made out from. You my friend are catastrophically stupid.

but I'll ignore all the other times they say y because that's more convenient to my narrative!

Ya got any screenshots to back that headcanon up?

Just an example of ends justifying the means

Except that's not how that concept works. At all. The idea of "ends justify the means" implies that any means are right as long as the end is correct. To give a proper comparison this would suggest blowing up half the planet to save someone from being hit by a car is morally correct.

The means need to be justified within the context of the end. Ergo; a shove is something you can justify to achieve the end, but that's still extrinsic justification for the means toward the end.

Don't need any. You ignored half the post which already disproved your nonsense.

Because they're painted. If there was a room of 100 hundred canvases, all filled with painted people and one got destroyed, nobody would give a shit. They'd simply paint a new canvas to replace the destroyed one and move on.

I can't back up my headcanon

Concession accepted.

So because they are easy to create their lives do not matter? Regardless of how intelligent or sentient they are?

You indeed cannot back up your headcanon and your claim was disproven by your own screenshot, so yes, concession accepted. Thanks for playing but you suck at this so very much.

No u!

KWAB

If you put a 100 works of art in a room and destroyed one, nobody would give a shit

Oh I'm pretty sure if I went to a museum and destroyed a random painting people would be rather angry about it. But you know that's not how this works. Their lives do not lose meaning or value due to their method of creation. It's rather laughable that you'd even try to argue otherwise, it's such a pathetically weak line of thinking.

That's not what I said though, illiterate-kun.

Why didn't you answer this?

if it turned out that humanity only existed because of a particular religion, say, created by the christian god, do we suddenly stop caring about our continued existence upon learning that fact?

as through that premise, the christian god can create or remove as at his own whim if he really wanted to, if we subscribe to the idea that hes all knowing / powerful etc.

That's peak hyperbole right there. In no world would killing 4 billion justify saving one.

The means need to be justified within the context of the end

Like, destroying their fake life to save their real life?

illiterate-kun.

from the guy that thought "Aline gave Verso his memories"

Because someone else already ridiculed this earlier in the thread.Lumiere and its inhabitants are creations of Aline, that's why they're affected by the gommage while Esquie, Gestrals, Nevrons, and the Grandis aren't.

Indeed, that is hyperbole, but hyperbole still serves a purpose. Here it serves to highlight the fact that the sentiment "the ends justify the means" is wholly dysfunctional as a mode of morality.

In no world would killing 4 billion justify saving one.

Incorrect, the conceptual world where the ends justify the means is such a world. You do not accept this, so you accept the ends do not justify the means. Further justification is therefor required.

Like, destroying their fake life to save their real life?

And here we end up with the proportionality problem again. Aline might be slowly dying, but that's her choice. The people in the canvas have to be slain by the countless thousands, this obviously isn't justified at all with the mere notion that one person will expire slightly less quickly and spend more time with her real family.

Yeah, I'd kill myself if I was a maimed, burned to shit cripple that can't breathe without pain, unless I was an eldritch monstrosity of a burned maimed cripple that can paint entire realities to life - in which case, if I wasn't retarded like Maelle that is, I'd paint a new one that wasn't built on the foundations of my deceased brother's soul being stuck in a demiurge induced personal purgatory. But hey, what do I know of personal struggles of 16 year old demigods.

Fails repeatedly to address the point

Concession accepted.

Yes, because you can always make more of them. AI will probably be able to simulate actual life in digital worlds in a few decades, will they AI lives begin to matter then?
Awful comparison. The canvases aren't in a museum, they're private property and the owner can do whatever they please with them. Their lives hold no value exactly because of the method of their creation.

Painted people have feelings, emotions, they think and act like any "real" person would. They ARE real.
God can create and delete humans with a wave of his hand. But that doesn't make them fake. In this case the Dessendre are gods.
Renoir (and the Dessendre to an extent) at his core doesn't see them as real people. He has no remorse deleting them just because he's from a higher plane of existence. That's what made him evil, he is no different than your run-of-the-mills evil gods in media.

The evil isn't the person, the evil is the circumstances.

The only one here that failed is you. I provided citation that Verso is made from Aline's memories of him, you on the other hand have little more than "it came to me in a dream" as proof of your claims.

Except that post has nothing to do with what I said.
I said that the current citizens of Lumiere were born from other citizens of Lumiere. So unless you think that Aline is individually painting thousands of people all the time while also obviously being crazy and in a fight with Renoir. They have to be of their own making. Even if their ancestors were created by Aline.

There are no villains. Only people having a hard time and coping with it best they can. Which isn't very well. But at least it allows you to sort things out a little at the end.

He's a complete cuck who can't control his family and to cope feels like he needs to kill off sentient art pieces.

because you can always make more of them.

You can always make more human babies. Would it matter if I killed a few thousands of them?

If you built a robot that in turn creates robots, does that mean those created robots are actually not robots?

I provided a citation that immediately disproved my own point, and I've been dancing around this issue because you made another irrelevant claim that I can sperg out about to distract people!

FTFY

I provided a citation that immediately disproved my own point

My point that Verso was in fact created from Aline's memories of Verso

which the screenshot outright states

Did you fail English class or something?

Who said anything about them not being robots? Why are you adding things I never said?
My point was that Aline can not recreate them because she has no idea about who they are or what their essence is.

You're going to need to play any new story game before coming to Anon Babble. It's just the nature of the place.

NTA but that wasn't the point retard. The point is that those robots would not have been made by a person, but by robots.

Backpedaling this hard from his claim that he made

"Because painted Verso being based off a real person means their essence is not a fruit of Aline's imagination. Instead they tell you he's made of her memories of him."

"Because painted Verso being based off a real person means their essence is not a fruit of Aline's imagination"

Because painted Verso being based off a real person means their essence is not a fruit of Aline's imagination"

Funny guy. It's hilarious how desperate you are to pretend you didn't just make a laughably absurd statement and then disprove it yourself.

The point is that those robots would not have been made by a person, but by robots

The human still gets the credit for the creation of those, is the point.

Why does the "credit" matter at all?

memory and imagination are the same thing

What a retard. You really did fail English class.

Ask the gommage, since it's supposed to only delete Aline's creations, yet all these newfangled "not made by Aline at all" people keep getting erased by it.

You are literally a retard.
He needs to kill lumeriens so that their chroma return to Aline

If you don't know what we are arguing about why are you arguing?

Creating something based off of memories involves no imagination

Hah. Jesus Christ my guy is there no level of absurdity you won't stoop to? You were better off trying to deflect to irrelevant things, this is actually worse!

My nigga, you're the retard that keeps harping on about how these "new Lumierans" aren't made by Aline.

memories involves no imagination

It doesn't. It just needs a recollection of facts.
If I were to draw a red apple from memory, I don't need to make it with dragon wings and a fire breathing tail. I just need to remember the fact that 1. it is an apple, and 2. it is colored red.

No, I never said that painted people should just roll over and die. They can resist all they want, but ultimately their lives hold no real value.

Indeed, that is hyperbole, but hyperbole still serves a purpose. Here it serves to highlight the fact that the sentiment "the ends justify the means" is wholly dysfunctional as a mode of morality.

No, because your example is simply nonsensical, even for a hyperbole. The ends is saving a life, the means is potentially injuring them to do so.

Incorrect, the conceptual world where the ends justify the means is such a world. You do not accept this, so you accept the ends do not justify the means. Further justification is therefor required.

The justification is relevant to the ends. Nuking half the world to save one is an intentional misunderstanding of that way of thinking and a dishonest analogy.

And here we end up with the proportionality problem again. Aline might be slowly dying, but that's her choice. The people in the canvas have to be slain by the countless thousands, this obviously isn't justified at all with the mere notion that one person will expire slightly less quickly and spend more time with her real family.

She's suffering from extreme grief and her husband is trying to stop her from killing herself, just as she did before with him. The people in the canvas hold no real value, their lives are not on the same scale as their creator. So Renoir is in fact, justified in gomagging them to save his wife (their creator's) life.

when i had a "going into paintings" machine this woulve been early 1906- i used to go into lumiere A LOT and one of my fav things to do was fondle maelle at the cafe. one of the great things about fondling painted characters is they don't fight back or struggle because they don't recognise u as a painted person its like you dont exist. but let me tell you, she smelled like SHIT. in fact everybody I that canvas did. I got used to it after a while but that first moment when i smelt maelle up close..i was almost sick. she looks clean & nice when you see her in the painting but when ur there stood next to her its a different story. my dad burned the canvas in the end and im kinda glad. it had started to take over my life.

The reason I am arguing that is because someone else said Aline can just recreate the people as they are if she wanted to, which in turns means that Renoir's genocide is not that serious.
My point is that she can't do that because she didn't actually create the current generation of Lumiere, she has no idea how she would recreate them because she doesn't know them.

You really shouldn't be telling people they failed English class when you don't even understand what "based off" means.

It just needs a recollection of facts.

recollection is objective and complete and implies no subjectivity whatsoever! I have to pretend I have no idea how memory works at all because otherwise I'd look stupid and... wait...

Yea. You look pretty stupid either way.

If I were to draw a red apple from memory, I don't need to make it with dragon wings and a fire breathing tail.

Interesting experiment anon. Why don't you actually try it. Imagine an apple, based on what you remember an apple looks like and... oh wait oops! Already fucked up!

Aline can just recreate the people as they are if she wanted to

She can. They are her creations, her chroma. Verso says painting isn't about verismilitude, it's about essence. That they're her chroma means that she's the one closest to their essence. That she's their paintress also means that she can do verisimilitude as well.

Imagine an apple

Why would I use imagination? I know what an apple looks like, I just need to recall that from memory.

They can resist all they want, but ultimately their lives hold no real value.

But this is fundamental to my question, which you didn't engage with, if one of the major religion gods turned out to be real in our world, would your opinion of humanity be the same? That we no longer hold value upon learning of our created existence?

No, because your example is simply nonsensical, even for a hyperbole. The ends is saving a life, the means is potentially injuring them to do so.

I... are you really this stupid? What part of what I said is nonsensical you dense cretin. Yes, you just copied the sentiment I was expressing that THE ENDS DO NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS, JUSTIFICATION IS AN EXTRINSIC QUALITY. Jesus fucking Christ man you're so god damn stupid.

They are her creations, her chroma

Renoir wants to destroy the canvas. Which also destroys the chroma.

Verso says painting isn't about verismilitude, it's about essence. That they're her chroma means that she's the one closest to their essence

She doesn't know their essence. If all "essence" was was chroma then Maelle should have been able to recreate Sciel and Lune immediately, but she needed something else on top of that. Which was the "essence".

Good thing I already finished this game. Everybody is just dropping spoilers in the OP now

Right, so go ahead and draw an apple, is it a complete and perfect recreation of the apple you remembered? Of course it's not, and you know it cannot be, so why are you persisting in this absurd line of "reasoning"?

You lose anon, stop floundering about and just accept you made a stupid mistake and made a stupid statement instead of repeatedly doubling down on increasingly asinine and ridiculous claims to somehow paradoxically prove that you weren't an idiot with your original claim.

Yes. Because humans can't be killed and brought back to life shortly after being killed. The person who killed you also can't go off and make an entirely new world filled with new life that can sustain itself.

Anon, no one is talking about different canvases here. The post that got your 'tism going was a response to some retard talking about nuking new york.

And that's a good thing!

the chroma stays in the body though

is it a complete and perfect recreation of the apple you remembered

Yes. What kind of retard are you that you need imagination to draw an apple rather than recall?

New York in this case is the canvas. Retard. It's an entire world full of people Renoir tries to destroy.

so you're saying that i can show you an apple and then ask you to draw it a year later and you will create a flawless reproduction of the exact apple that i showed you?

New York in this case is the canvas

But it's not, because the reply was "your mom made New York", which means New York refers to Lumiere, not the canvas.

If they aren't brought back why does it matter if the could have been?
In Verso's ending they have no ability to be brought back so they are permanently dead.

The person who killed you also can't go off and make an entirely new world filled with new life that can sustain itself.

So as long as the person murdering other people have the powers of a god they can kill anyone they want and it would be moral?

Yes. It's only a fucking year you moron.
As an aside, how few fruits do you eat that you can't draw an apple from memory?

Anon goes back to "pretending" to be illiterate

Still insists that memory is perfect and objective

Lmao. What a fucking loser.

You are a retard. The justification is relevant to the ends, like I just fucking said. Pushing someone to save them is justified, the end is equivalent to the means. Killing thousands of creations to save the creator is justified.

This is just semantics. Renoir wants to destroy the canvas which also destroys Lumiere. The two are connected.

It's not "an" apple, anon. It's THE apple. If you're drawing AN apple you are creating an imaginary apple based on what you remember AN apple looking like you absurd imbecile.

But the canvas is the world, not New York.

So Renoir's crime is even worse than just nuking New York.

i didn't say "draw an apple," i said draw a flawless reproduction of a specific apple that i showed you over a year ago.

i don't believe that you could do that. i think you are full of shit. i think if you actually believe you can do that, you're stupid and arrogant. i think that if you know that you can't but are just lying about it on the internet, you're stupid for believing it would work.

anyway, i won't reply again.

The justification is relevant to the ends

Ergo. The. Ends. Do. Not. Justify. The. Means. Retard. Stop disagreeing with yourself you fucking moron.

Yes, but with the original post referring to New York, Aline can just remake the New Yorkers.

E33 shills lost, Elden Rang won

Aline can just remake the New Yorkers

She can't. That's my point. The canvas is destroyed.
All she could do is create a different New York that would be inhabited by different people.

i didn't say "draw an apple," i said draw a flawless reproduction of a specific apple that i showed you over a year ago.

That's still a doable thing. Like I said, it's only been a fucking year. I can still recall what I had for breakfast on the first of June 2 years ago. Did anything special happen that day? Fuck no. It was a regular ass day.

unironically miyazaki couldn't even hope to write a game as interesting as e33, hence all story telling they've managed to conjure since 2009 exists entirely in loosely connected item descriptions that let the player make up everything else in between so they dont have to make a coherent world

That's still a doable thing

Lol.

It's more like hitting you with a car to get you out of the way of someone about to shove you

same

Only if nevrons kill them. That's why clea created those

I don't believe that anon either but we live in a world where people suffer from photographic memory, eidetic memory, and perfect recall. Where some people can not just recall facts and details but relive emotions felt on those days of their past.
Not saying this anon has any of that but it's not an impossible thing.

He's one of the most skilled painters in the world. They live on a fucking estate in notParis.

Their bodies, their choice, chud.

They live on a fucking estate in notParis.

naw, it's actual Paris. Alicia says as much when you try to go out the front door in the start of act 3.

only ever saw the reveal trailer for this game

seemed neat enough but I'm just not a turn based fan

skip to the game releasing

reviews VERY well

Anon Babble is praising a fucking western RPG

tons of daily threads being made

a month later this is still the case

decide to give it a chance (ready to refund within 2 hours)

mfw 60 hours later and I played one of the best vidyas in my entire life

His canvas, his choice.

Murder everyone in the country producing heroin

that's fucking based

back to the mines nigger
also

all those people deserve their freedem... no! Fuck that kid.

hilarious

*wipes a civilization for his wife*
Yeah, that's why he's a god tier villain

"aren't you tired of painting?..."

it nods it little head silently

"yeah, I'm tired too..."

It was at that moment I knew for sure what had to be done. How can you choose anything else when a version of Verso that lived over a century, and the last piece of the actual Verso's soul just wants to rest in peace. The canvas had to be destroyed

b-but there's always another way

No. Maelle hid the canvas and Aline literally found it again within minutes in the real world. Alicia and Aline would never want to leave their fantasy world.

posts Painted Renoir

Slip of the tongue?

He's dead IRL

story hinges on NOOOOOOOOO I SUCK AT HIDING STUFF

wow

Wasn't his original plan to end it all at once so people wouldn't need to grieve, suffer, or fear death every year? It sucks he had to cause death for 67 years against the innocent painted people Aline had made, but he literally had no choice. At the very least Gommaging doesn't seem painful. It almost looks peaceful

in the canvas he's more alive than the Lumerians

How ironic is it that even Aline's version of her husband would end up holding the same convictions as the real Renoir? Say what you want about those two, but they clearly loved each other deeply and knew each other to a T. She couldn't even paint a version of her husband that wasn't exactly like the real one deep down.

That isn't Renoir's fault. Lumiere never existed in Verso's canvas. That is something Aline painted to make that world as close to her own to live out a fantasy with her painted family. Verso's creations were never harmed by Renoir. He wanted to erase everything at once so no one would have to grieve or suffer.

Remember how fucking creepy this thing was when it first showed up? It hindsight it's completely obvious it's the real Renoir but during my first playthrough I was questioning why we had this fucked up looking thing hanging out at Camp.

is the only sane one in the family

Wasn't his original plan to end it all at once so people wouldn't need to grieve, suffer, or fear death every year?

His original plan was to just get Aline out the painting. That it escalated into a decades long war of attrition was just a development from Aline not wanting to leave.

I think he had no idea how badly his wife was handling the death of her son before entering. Seeing that she had painted humanity, a fake Lumiere, and a fake family, showed Renoir just how far gone she was in this world. Aline was just far too talented a painter for Renoir to manage. Only Clea should've been capable of stopping them both but she seems to want nothing to do with entering the painting. That look she gives PVerso at the Flying Manor before killing herself said everything. She didn't even want to interact with PVerso because she knows how dangerous and wrong it is to form a connection with the ghost of your brother. Real Renoir does the same. The only time he acknowledged PVerso is when he expresses the pity he feels for his circumstances.

go into painting looking for your wife

find yourself in a 1:1 recreation of Paris, right down to your home

house key is even hidden in the same spot as in the real world

go inside to the master bedroom looking for your wife

find a painted version of you balls deep in her

That isn't Renoir's fault

He chose to destroy it. He knows what it means to destroy it.
Just because you think his motivations are justified doesn't mean it isn't his fault.

Verso's creations were never harmed by Renoir

The Gestrals and the Grandis talk about how there were much more of them before the fracture. And about how they keep getting killed by nevrons.
So no, Renoir's actions have also hurt Verso's creations.

Why are e33 threads always full of chatgpt generated posts

tfw you realise you were feeding him chroma to upgrade your shit, and doing so assisting in your own demise.

Yet again that is still Aline's fault. Renoir talks about how much it's crushing him to do this to the last piece of his sons soul. None of this would have happened if Aline could've grieved her son in a healthier way. Everyone in the family loved and misses Verso, they're all shown to be close. It's only Aline and Alicia that aren't able to cope with their lives in a healthy way. It's ironic that Aline resents Alicia for what happened to Verso, when Alicia is exactly like her mother. They have the same convictions. Clea/PVerso/Renoir are the only one's that know the Canvas has got to go, and they're the only ones that are right.

If we're gonna do some blame game it's Aline's fault for making Lumiere to live out an escapism fantasy in the first place.
But actually it's Verso's fault for dying since Aline wouldn't make Lumiere if he were still alive.
But actually it's Alicia's fault for trusting in the writers, leading to Verso dying from their house burning down.

Renoir talks about how much it's crushing him to do this to the last piece of his sons soul

He still does it. He didn't have to do what he does.
Aline didn't kill anyone. Renoir did. Renoir could also stop killing whenever he wanted but he chooses to continue.

Aline didn't kill anyone. Renoir did.

Renoir wouldn't have anyone to kill if Alicia didn't trust the writers.

Yet he still chose to kill. He is responsible for his own actions.

Aline didn't kill anyone

She painted humanity into a fake world. If you don't see how horribly cruel and fucked up that is, I don't know what to tell you. Verso's creations were almost immortal. His world didn't have death and violence. Aline ruined her sons world

And she chose to trust the writers. She's responsible for everything that her actions bring about.

Why is creating life fucked up?

His world didn't have death and violence

That only happened because of Renoir. Aline didn't bring the violence.
Alicia is responsible for trusting the writers. The writers are responsible for burning the house and killing Verso. Aline is responsible for creating Lumiere. Renoir is responsible for killing everyone in the canvas.

Verso's creations were almost immortal. His world didn't have death and violence.

Death is a thing. We know this from the gestral's whole reincarnation thing. Violence is also a thing. We know this because Clea tells us that her and Verso beating up nevrons was a childhood game of theirs.

Holy shit.
Imagine being unable to operate and contemplate within the narrative framework.
Renoir is "real" as far as the game is concerned.
Painted "people" are not.

Aline didn't kill anyone

The game delves into the theme of "creating life that is doomed to perish/suffer is bad" from the very start.
Aline knew creating those millions of painted humans was a terrible idea(and the game sort of implies it is frowned upon by the Painters Council), yet did it anyway.
She bears responsibility, even if she doesn't kill them directly.

Oh and also, gestrals love fighting.

You are projecting here. The narrative framework is that the painted people are alive. Everyone in the story treats them like that. They act identically to how the painters act. There is no discernible difference between the two except that the painters have much more power than the painted people.

same, you have to be functionally retarded to visit Anon Babble and not expect people to be talking about the latest FOTM with full spoilers

Renoir *euthanized* them.
He was moral, and you are a degenerate relativist.

Gets raped and mindbroken by a writerGOD

People would absolutely give up their pets if having the pet is straight up killing their loved ones.

Stable people would. Pitmommies keeping their pitbaby after it mauls their kids, wouldn't for instance.

The game delves into the theme of "creating life that is doomed to perish/suffer is bad" from the very start.

The game has one character that doesn't want to have children. She doesn't blame anyone else for having children, and we meet no one else with this viewpoint. And the only reason she doesn't want to have children is because that child won't live a very long life. Aline createded humans with normal lifespans.

Aline knew creating those millions of painted humans was a terrible idea

Why is it a bad idea?

the Painters Council

What council?

Pretty sure she was actively hunting down the Writers and getting revenge while the rest of her family were playing games and fighting inside a painting. Clea is the only responsible one.

You using a different word for murder doesn't make it any less murder.

They are a fabrication, a facsimile.
One that has ensnared real, human beings.
A billion of their artificial lives are not worth that of a single, authentic human.

is the Lumina Converter the greatest invention in history for the painted people? It theoretically allows them to become strong enough to oust their creators and protect their world

It's not synonymous.
No binding "law" forbids his actions.

Why is an artificial life worth less than an "authentic" one?
Why is the nature of the creation important after the fact?

What council?

NTA but there is a council. She used to be the head of it but got canned for abdicating her responsibilities aka fucking off to a fake world. I don't know where he got the thing about the council frowning upon making painted humans though.

Retarded Versocucks don't know Painted Renoir and Renoir are different characters in opposition to each other. They base all their opinions on vibes of the last 5 minutes of the game.

become strong enough to oust their creators

Lol no it doesn't. All victories against painters were due to other painters intervening.

All victories against painters were due to other painters intervening

Except Verso against Maelle in his ending.

You mean when Verso gained access to the border dimension due to Renoir? When he had the painter lumina to break the damage cap?

Which expedition teams got the furthest outside of 100 and 33?

Maelle was barely a painter. Compared to Aline/Clea she's painting with her fingers using watercolors.

Argument ended.

Why do you think being in the border dimension mattered?

When he had the painter lumina to break the damage cap?

That's something any painted being could have.

Verso just weakened Alicia's painter side enough for the room to do its thing.
Remember, as of act 3 she's no longer a painted person with the memories of a paintress but rather a painted person-paintress mix, having been gommaged at the end of act 2, remembering her real life, and reforming once more without the fuckup of panicking.

Anon Babble engaging with brain in a vat and solipsism from this game for the first time is quite funny to watch

As of act 3 she is no longer a painted person at all. The painted part got gommaged.

There is no chroma in that area and thus Maelle fought Verso as a normal human. Gameplay wise Maelle is always the strongest party member in terms of sheer DPS but narratively, Verso is a stronger fighter with far more experience.

She's not back to being a paintress. She didn't get ejected from the canvas then jumped back in like Aline did.

That comic has nothing to do with the argument.
Maybe if we were arguing about Maelle or Aline would you have had a point.

That's something any painted being could have.

Yeah, when a Painter gives them the Picto.

There is no chroma in that area

How would you know? And how would you know that that matters?

She's not back to being a paintress.

She never stopped being a paintress, she simply didn't remember being one and had been painted over. This is why she could gommage Painted Renoir and could eject Aline. Then at the end of act 2 the painted part gets gommaged only leaving the painter parts.
The Pictos seems to be naturally occurring in the canvas. They don't need to be given them.

only leaving the painter parts.

But that's wrong, because she remembers her whole life as Maelle. That life IS a painted part.

And? At no point does she express doubt that Aline can handle herself in the canvas or that she's worried about her dying.

because she remembers her whole life as Maelle

Sure. But that is because she was always a painter underneath the painted parts.

>How would you know? And how would you know that that matters?

Because it exists outside the Canvas, and Verso starts gommaging the moment he interacts with Verso's soul but because Aline made him immortal he stays. Maelle enters and warns him of that, and later when we see Sciel enter, she gommages. Lune decides to sit on the edge of the portal and stare daggers into Verso.

No thats wrong. She doesnt care if sje dies or not at this point

The Pictos is called Painted Power. Painted. It's not "naturally" occurring in the world, nor created by the people of Lumiere.

That's conjecture and not definitively stated.

And how does any of that mean that there isn't any chroma there or that there not being chroma there would mean that Maelle is fighting as a normal human?

Not really analogous, as Renoir knows his form of life is higher order (even if his own is another simulation).

Is your argument that the pictos are something that the painters have deliberately created, if so why would they do that? And why are they just randomly spread throughout the world?
And even if that is the case I don't really see the significance. They are still part of the world and the painted people can use them at will if they want to.

"B-But the painted are real!!"

The entire purpose of a lotus eater machime is to be as realistic as possible

The artificial existence is of a manifestly lower order.
That is why it is repugnantly dystopian.
That is the point.

The artificial existence is of a manifestly lower order.

Why?

Because their agency is artificial and death means nothing to them

If they die to Nevrons, Renoir gains the chroma. If they die to pRenoir, their chroma goes to Aline.

And yet some expeditioners who survived pRenoir were able to take down Renoir. I suppose because they had a whole live paintress on their side (Maelle), but technically, so did pRenoir.

Because their agency is artificial

In what way? They can clearly rebel against their creator.

and death means nothing to them

They seem to take death quite seriously in my opinion.

Because the only person that can paint in there is Verso's soul, and he is finger painting the actual canvas, not the world around him. What did you miss. That area isn't in a painting. There's no chroma. Verso couldn't even have entered there without being immortal, and even then he was slowly fading after interacting with Verso. Maelle doesn't use any painting powers against Verso in that fight.

Honestly, if Aline wants to numb herself in the Canvas, then let her.

Grief is no excuse. We're all grieving.

Sounds pretty definitive of her no longer giving a fuck about Aline.

No my argument is that when Verso fought Maelle he literally had access to powers created by a Paintress.

Maelle doesn't use any painting powers against Verso in that fight

You can use her "gommage" power if you can get the fight to last that long.

I.e. Imagine pRenoir returning home and telling everyone: hey, you know that paintress? She's trying to keep us alive, but she's going to fail in 100 years. Let's grab some guns and go get rid of "The Curator" and stop the Gommage! Why didn't he do that?

They are all created by painters. Their entire world is created by painters. So they by definition have to use powers created by painters.

Because according to the game they tried to be truthful and got their teeth kicked in for the effort.

hmm if I pretend it is this other thing and argue against that I'm right!

He did. Read the journals.

How is he wrong though? Aline literally created Lumiere to be an escape from the fact that her son is dead. She basically purposely built a lotus eater machine to get stuck in.

First of all, no they are not. Secondly, do you understand how insanely powerful Painted Power is?

She says this right after saying that Aline has spent more time in other canvases and it's not a big deal.

Thanks for the info... I was wondering about that. I should probably play the actual game one day.

First of all, no they are not

What do you mean? Of course they are.

Secondly, do you understand how insanely powerful Painted Power is?

The only reason it is powerful at all is because of the lumina converter. Otherwise they would all be doing nowhere near 9999 dmg.

Because any scenario in which they are not necessitates either materialist nihilism or an untenable moral imperative of self-abnegation.

Why?

He's just in denial.

This might be a retarded question but are WE (You) the Writers?

Renoir is the absolute GOAT and objectively correct in 99% of the things he does. He is the "villain" because ultimately you are playing from the perspective of Maelle and the Lumerians, whose interests conflict with his.
Even pRenoir is nice despite being purposefully made to be evil as Aline saw him.
Aline is the TRUE villain of the series, and despite her not being the "evil paintress" the citizens of Lumiere envisioned her to be, she is still indirectly responsible for everything that has been happening to them.
If Aline was a bit more reasonable Renoir would have no need to destroy the painting and everyone could live happily ever after.
She is a selfish bitch with no regards for the consequences of her actions.
Fuck Aline. Renoir is right, and Versos' ending is supreme not because of anything pVerso does or wishes, but because it ends up with Renoir achieving his goal.
And Maelle/Alicia is almost just as stubborn and idiotic as her mother.

misses Clea and Esquie

What do you mean? Of course they are.

In the Prologue you meet a guy who is close to finishing his own Pictos. But of course, if you really want to go there that they were all created by painters anyway then you must concede that Verso could only beat Maelle due to painters intervening.

The only reason it is powerful at all is because of the lumina converter.

What the fuck are you talking about? No, the Pictos is powerful without the fucking lumina converter. They have access to it BECAUSE Alicia has the Pictos BECAUSE she is a Paintress.

And Maelle/Alicia is almost just as stubborn and idiotic as her mother.

Let's be fair here.
Aline wasn't dumb enough to trust a writer.

Alicia is just a kid, and a kid with a broken body and severe loneliness.

Aline's power was waning because Clea saw Renoir was trapped by her and made the nevrons to kill expeditioners, trapping their chroma, and resulting in Aline losing power over time. The whole point of the numbers counting down on the monolith was that the paintress was able to protect fewer and fewer people each year from Renoir's power. He was already in the process of winning because of Clea, Alicia just expedited that process.

Its a LEM you nogs. In order for it to do its job as being an escapism mechanism it has to be as realistic as possible.

same, you're a retard if you come here expecting some dipshit to not immediately spoil it

She only got the broken body after the fire.
As for the loneliness, she did that to herself. Clea even calls her out on her bullshit with caring about the canvas by pointing out that while she and Verso were having fun with the painting, Alicia was burying her head under a book.

Still murder.

No, the writers are the Writers. We are the Observers who stand above the Writers, as without us their Writings may as well not exist.

Yeah, but at least she wasn't stupid enough to lock herself in a painting like her mother. On purpose and/or at first, at least...
Well... despite everything that has happened to her, that being her brother's death, which was her fault, and her becoming disfigured she's cuter that way anyway in my humble opinion her first instinct wasn't to abandon the real world and force Renoir to destroy the last reminder of Verso the family had.
However once Alicia got a taste of the nectar that was a worry-free life of blissful ignorance as Maelle, she fell into the same pit as her mother, and resigned to killing herself just to feel good for a little while longer.
Like a heroin addict who is about to overdose.
Her being a child also kind of excuses her behaviour, but if anything it highlights just how childish and stupid Aline actually is in contrast.

Ok but consider that his wife is an old ugly bitch while saving her means un-aliving a 10/10 like Lune.

Dessendre family are shitty people, and they make unworthy and evil demuirges, definitely unfit for the power that they have. Therefore, Maelle ending all the way, because I literally don't give a fuck what happens to them, writers are free to murk them for all I care. And Alicia is fucked either way, it's a choice between being addicted to painting or being addicted to opioids because early 20th century medicine didn't know other strong panikillers.
Characters in the painting are the only ones who worth saving in that entire shitshow.

her first instinct wasn't to abandon the real world and force Renoir to destroy the last reminder of Verso the family had

But.. it was.
She goes "it WOULD be nice to be able to talk and breathe without pain again... not that that's what I'm doing this for you sussy baka!"

Bait thread but he's not evil. Nobody is evil in the game. If you beat the ending you'll understand that at most some characters are selfish.

yeah holy shit its dark as fuck
death is a mercy to him poor guy

No one is evil in the game, except arguably verso who wants to commit mass genocide just because he doesn't want to live anymore.
Everyone else has good motives, some of them are a little selfish but that's it

Even if it was her first instinct, she didn't.
She was able to refuse the siren call unlike her mother, until eventually she got involved by accident.

the only one in the family actively going after the ones responsible for Verso's death in the real world

still largely tipped the favor in her father's direction passivley by painting over her own mother's creation

When did you realize she was the most powerful character in the game?

Either,
A: The artificial reality is perfectly mechanistic AND knowable in totality, *except* for the agents that supercede it, e.g. painters.
But if we equate our existence to that of the artificial painted, we must necessarily diminish our own agency to the same nihilistic determinism.
or
B: It is as infinite and unknowable as our reality, eroding the distinction at a cosmic scale.
Yet we can unilaterally paint and efface multitudes at whim and all of the associated suffering and joy.
If their joy is equal to our own, we are morally bound to serve them with our power, subjugating ourselves to the preservation of *their* paradise as only we can.
In doing so, we are necessarily reduced to stewards of the world we created. Slave-gods.

She was able to refuse the siren call

She didn't do that either. She failed resisting so bad that she got unmade and re-cast as a baby.

he was never the true villain in the game. Maelle was the true villain.

Murder is the unjustified killing of a human being. Renoir didnt unjustly killed them and they are not human.

There are no villains, shithead. Only The Writers could truly be called a villain since they killed Verso, whether them setting fire to the family manor was intended to destroy their paintings rather than kill them all is hard to say, but they set forth all of this.

They seem to take death quite seriously in my opinion.

nta, but, i disagree, barely any of the characters actually engage with the fact that they're painted and "not real" at all until the very very end

i was honestly a bit surprised that for a game that was so well written up throughout the majority of it, it seems most of the characters either don't have the capacity to engage with the fact that they're painted, or, just don't seem to care that much.

Obvious outliers being Lune who is seething at the idea of being betrayed by Verso in his ending

Nobody is evil in the game.

im sorry but clea is very clearly as evil as you can be for the creatures of that world

can you stupid fucking faggots stop constantly trying to spoil parts of this game for me? I shouldn't be forbidden from browsing Anon Babble completely until I beat a game just because you stupid nigger faggot retards can't be bothered to use spoiler tags correctly I hope you eat a fucking godanm bullet.

shut the fuck up faggot.

Sciel could care less when she realized her demigoddess friend could bring back her husband who died from a natural accident not the gommage.

I'm talking about the real human beings/main characters. >!The painted versions of themselves are painted in the worst version thinks of her family.!<

Lurk moar nigger

Clea isn't evil and had a hand in creating that world. Francois is HER painting, and he loves and misses her deeply. But Clea is realistic and knows that canvas is causing their family to be torn apart. She was closest to Verso.

>i was honestly a bit surprised that for a game that was so well written up throughout the majority of it, it seems most of the characters either don't have the capacity to engage with the fact that they're painted, or, just don't seem to care that much.

Because they know they're just painted people (or at the very least not human beings) on a subconscious scale. One of the journals mentions the carnage that happened as either a blotbath or an inkbath rather than a bloodbath. Maelle herself says "let's spill some ink" as one of her lines at the start of a fight.

Why are Maellefags not engaging with the fact death means nothing in her ending. She brings back people who got gommaged and also people that died of natural causes. Does she resurrect any person that dies from slipping off a roof or does she restrict it to her friends. Do they especially Gustave know that Maelle is dying? How is she even able to bring back all the people that she doesnt even know a single thing about? Why didnt she repaint Lumiere?

Don't expect people here to use spoiler tags, they're too retarded or too newfag to even know how. Also spoiling shit is le ebin rebel behavior so they do it on purpose.
I just stopped browsing this site until I completed the game, you should do the same.

Gustave!!!
Verso!!!
Maelle!!

Look, I'm here to argue for Renoir supremacy and shit on both Aline and Maelle.
But in the grand scheme of things, Aline is the true villain and did much worse things than Alice.
Alice just wants her life back. Aline wants to end hers, and bring everyone else with her.

More importantly, why did she bring back Gustave as a cripple? She could have brought him back with 2 regular arms instead still left him with his prosthetic one.

It makes you wonder if Gustave is based on Vash the Stampede.

I'd also be interested to know how much she has painted over (or is able to paint over) based on what she said about Clea being the only one skilled enough to do it. Do the "revived" understand she brought them back? Do they still know they're painted? Did Maelle remove that from them? Why didn't she give Gustave back his arm if she was able to? Is Verso an actual prisoner or just resigned to his fate, and is he the only aging person now?

How is she even able to bring back all the people that she doesnt even know a single thing about?

Also interesing she didn't give Sciel back her child/pregnancy, assumedly because she didn't know that even happened.

Good questions. I kind of wished that game had a library to explain terms like Chroma, Pictos and Lumina but I assume it didnt because it would lead to plot spoilers

Also interesing she didn't give Sciel back her child/pregnancy, assumedly because she didn't know that even happened.

Well, since painting is about essence, it figures she can't do that.
For one, the child had no essence of its own, and even if it did, it was so early in the pregnancy it would not survive a second outside of the womb and the only way Maelle could bring it back would be if she either, turned back time specifically on Sciels body, which would result in her losing all her memories since the time she was pregnant.
The other option would be for her to paint a different version of the child, which would probably be even worse than the first option, as it would basically be like a cuckoo ritual. Forced to take care of a child that isn't even really hers.
Just bring back her husband and let 'em make another ;)

I choose the Verso end.
Malle is a retard.

Verso in Maelle ending is Alicia in Verso ending.

Sure. They're both trying to do the other a favor that they don't want, and Verso is a lying sack of shit who absolutely does not deserve to get his way in any capacity.
Maelle will find happiness again, however. She has so many worlds to paint, and so many memories to make with a papa who loves her very much. She's the prettiest burn victim in the world, and she'll eventually find a husband.

Verso knew he was corrupt and terrible. His heart was gone, which is why Sirene sperged out and attacked the party. There was something he understood as Verso, though. The little boy's spirit, the fragment of Verso that made up the canvas, did not wish to paint. That child didn't do anything wrong.

Well, since painting is about essence, it figures she can't do that.

For one, the child had no essence

See because of that I dont actually think the repainted versions of Scielle and Lune are the same as the prepainted. What if Maelle repainted two copies of each. Which of the two are the real ones?

I choose the Maelle ending.
Verso is a lying cunt.

Well, the painters use chroma to create, and I sort of assumed/it's implied that chroma retains the information that is imprinted onto it for some time.
For example Maelle couldn't use the chroma from the dead expeditioners to create new beings, as it was "tainted" aka already inscribed with information about the people, but she was able to bring back the "forms" of the expeditioners with their skills and power intact, though they may have lacked personality.
So basically she can use untainted chroma to gather the imprinted chroma to resurrect people.
The imprinted chroma serves as something of a soul the painters can grasp and recreate, while pure chroma is a blank slate.
That's how I think it works anyway.

Have you ever heard of the Noble Lie

The little boy's spirit, the fragment of Verso that made up the canvas, did not wish to paint.

Because gods decided to shit on his playground, turning it into bloodbath. It would be perfect if maelle gtfo it too but can't have all

Pretty sure she was actively hunting down the Writers

Headcanon. Her words hint at an absolutely dire situation where they need to unite or they risk getting wiped out.

There is nothing noble about what he did. All he wanted was to die.

the kid in the ending is Lunes and Versos

No it isnt retard. Its Gustave's apprentice

It's because Verso wanted to play music. He literally never wanted to be a painter.
Painted Verso tells Maelle as much in one of their bonding events. His family forced him to make this thing, and then started tearing themselves apart over it. What an insult to dead!

nah his apprentices were cute this kid is ugly as fuck
it fits with verso trying this new life maelle made him
doesn't make it true

The kid literally has the exact same hairstyle as the main apprentice

Why didnt she repaint Lumiere?

Most likely because the devs didn't have the budget for it.

He is big sad :(

I accidentally oneshot Maelle at the end and missed some of the dialogue.

Expedition 60 found out the truth about the curator. They're considered of the most legendary expeditions.