What makes Mario such a brilliant franchise, and Sonic such a shit one?

What makes Mario such a brilliant franchise, and Sonic such a shit one?

Mario acts like a fool and thinks like a brilliant

Good gameplay vs garbage gameplay propped up by autistic furry playerbase

He has more than just one gimmick.

Nintendo has far higher quality control when it comes to Mario than Sonic does (or at least did) with Sonic.

Fairytale whimsicality beats out shonen edge and metaslop. It's like asking why timeless stories like The Wizard of Oz continue to enchant audiences while garbage anime like Bleach is rightfully forgotten.

Sega had a civil war between the Japanese and American branches so Sonic was all over the place.

Before 3D, I would say that the speed of Sonic games was a meme. The "speed" only works when you've played the game enough to memorize the levels. Otherwise you're just running into walls or charging into enemies/pits/hazards. It doesn't work and it's not fun for first time players. Post 3D, Sonic just never found its footing in making the jump to 3D the way Mario did.

One bings bings and the other dings, it is a matter of duality. One is good so that the other must be shit. Great cosmic balance

Too much secondary media breeds unfettered autism.

Mario is weird in that despite the popularity of its games, its characters aren't popular enough to sell merchandise. Nintendo has been trying to fix that with stuff like the Mario movie and the theme park, but Mario is an anomaly in that most of its income comes from its source material. As opposed to something like Pokemon that's made over $103 billion off of merchandise, and a much lesser $28 billion off of the games themselves.

Nintendo's loose approach to Mario makes it far more flexible than Sonic. The Mario characters are designed to be more like "actors" than characters; since they don't have well-defined personalities, they can play whatever role or act any way given game or product needs them to.

Sonic, on the other hand, is much more rigidly defined, and whenever Sega tries to be more "loose" with the Sonic characters like Nintendo is with the Mario characters, it always feels off-putting.

I'll use the time they made Sonic a silent protagonist who only communicates in grunts and hand gestures in the Mario & Sonic. It didn't work for obvious reasons; that's not Sonic. It didn't work here, and it didn't work with Classic Sonic in Generations or Forces either.

What makes Mario such a brilliant franchise,

Nothing

and Sonic such a shit one?

Sega

There isn't a single good sonic game. Not one.

Meanwhile every mario game is a banger

Git gud faggot

I dunno about brilliant, it's definitely sterile. Mario is just "kind of there" whereas Sonic has much more impressionable media, for better or worse.
I genuinely don't remember any pain points with mario games or particularly good parts because my only time playing them was with other people so mario wasn't really my focus. I haven't really bing bing wahoo'd a modern mario game. Last mainline mario I played was 64 and SMB3, but I guess if you count spinoffs paper mario n64 and thousand year door were nice. I'm inclined to follow sonic more just because it has more music I like and trainwreck games are funnier to watch than boring ones.
Mario is definitely better at making "party games" that multiple people can play but that doesn't really do much for how isolated people are nowadays.

A franchise has to start out good to become iconic in the first place

Mario fans will claim Sonic fans only have fangames to rely on, meanwhile the only reason Mario is even still relevant today is because of the romhacking scene.

what game is that? Only sonic and mario games I know of are the Olympics ones

Mario made an easy transition to 3D and the gameplay is friendly to everyone while Sanic gameplay was always just for a niche fanbase plus it made a horrible transition to 3D.

The M on his hat stands for Moloch, mario's conquest has the aid of demons while sonic is still trying to figure out if his arms should be blue or not

Sonic has never had a consistent identity.

One of the main criticisms thrown at the franchise during the 2000s was how it frequently suffered from identity crisis. SA2 to Heroes to Shadow to 06 was all over the place in terms of tone, presentation, and gameplay focus. Only the handheld games of that era felt like they had a consistent identity.

That's not even getting into all the alternative media that each have their own interpretations of Sonic. Sonic is a fucking mess. The only thing remotely consistent is Sonic himself.

Gotta go with the blue arms.
Everything went really downhill from there.

Mario games are hard to fuck up, they excel in simplicity that can appeal to everyone from casuals to Kaizo-masters and has priority from a console producer who actually understands that. Worst case you get NewSoup repetition at times or whatever the fuck Paper Mario wants to be nowadays but it's still hardly the plummet many other franchises have suffered, especially given the Indian-level quality control we've gotten with AAA's the past several years.

Sonic games once held themselves to a higher ambition with the right people at the right time but under the wrong producer, and once both 3D and lack of motivation via console-production happened (while Sammy changed priorities entirely, particularly into heavy generational appeal) they stooped to more and more major quality compromises amidst cycling out for college interns every year. The developers had no chance of keeping that streak going, even today with attempts being praised simply for getting a couple small things right, and the people who do care (i.e. fans, fangamers and side-media like the comics) tend to be associated with the mental nutjobs so any remaining legitimacy is in question by normal people.

mario revolutionized 3d platformers
2d sonic games had complex level design with multiple paths, then when they went to 3d it went to shit and gameplay got downgraded to going down a hallway while doing occasional QTEs on enemies and to this day there's still not a single good 3d sonic game
doesn't help that the whole sonic franchise became edgy and tryhard, so it attracted the most autistic fanbase

Nothing, because what you said is simply false. Early 3D Sonic games were well received, until söylennial reviewers started retroactively shitting on them and every söylennial jumped on the bandwagon. Sonic is gaining its reputation back but because this shithole is millennial central, you're stuck with 15 year old opinions.

The Adventure games were much more harshly reviewed when they were rereleased on Gamecube, because anything revolutionary they did was laughable by 2003.

Mario has never had personality. He's meant to be enjoyed by everyone and never taken seriously. Sonic's whole angle was always "mario but radical" and the only people this appealed to were socially retarded autists. Sonic isn't really like that anymore, but the damage it caused the franchise in the 90's was never really able to recover. Couple that with the fact that sonic was never able to properly transition it's 2D playstyle to 3D and you have a situation where every single new sonic game is different from the previous one which means each one of them isn't going to be able to retain it's entire audience.

Mario on the other hand, each 2D game is more or less the same, and every 3D game is more or less the same. If you enjoy one, you can enjoy them all.

That, as well as the fact that nobody had a sega saturn or dreamcast

I don't understand why yuji naka is respected in any way. He's too autistic about the projects he's involved in that he always winds up ruining them

none of Mario's secondary media has ever been particularly well received outside of the recent movie. people say they like the super show, but they're really just laughing at how dumb it is.

Sonic has always had a lack of direction. Since the beginning it was

dude its mario but you go FAST

but we placed traps to keep you from going fast so speed is a reward for gitting gud

..just like mario

Then SEGA kept trying to reinvent the formula.
They struck gold with Adventure but instead of refining it, kept reinventing it for 2 but not enough to ruin it. They fucked up HARD with Heroes and instead of looking back at what went wrong and course correcting back to Adventure they kept trying new shit which is where Sonic is now.

If a modern Sonic game is good it's never a consistently good experience. It's good because by chance SEGA had some of the piece fall into place by throwing random shit at a wall.

Sonic's whole angle was always "mario but radical" and the only people this appealed to were socially retarded autists.

The 90's were absolutely full of characters like Sonic and Sonic himself was on the tamer end of the spectrum, and they were just continuing a trend started in the 80s by characters like Bart Simpson and the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Those ports were actual downgrades.

Before Super Mario 64, the Super Show pretty much defined how people saw Mario, since there was nothing in the games to contradict it yet.

Hard pill to swallow time. Mario's fanbase is just as cultish and autistic as Sonic's. It's just more people are willing to overlook it, because Mario and Nintendo have a better track record for games than Sonic and Sega. And to take shots at Mario in any shape or form is akin to blasphemy to your average Tendie

Mario has better interactions with his enemies. They constantly change up the formula every new release. Sonic is too fast for the gameplay to be fun for most people. Mario bounces and squishes like a pixar character. Sonic's games always have autismo storylines, whereas mario just saves peach or drives a go kart or some shit.

The core gameplay was the same, and the voice acting and dialogue were cringeworthy by early 2000s standards. By the early 2000s, production values in games had already moved beyond anything on display in Adventure

They constantly change up the formula every new release.

No, that's what Sonic does, and it's why the series is such a mess

Sonic's games always have autismo storylines

That hasn't been the case since Sonic 06, which shat the bed so hard that Sega have never attempted that kind of storytelling with Sonic since

Where was it established in the games that mario is even a plumber? Is it because the games feature pipes? The only time mario has ever plumbed in a video game was in the opening cutscene of 3D World when him and luigi straighten a bent pipe.

they really ran out of ideas when they did a parody of the american revolution of all things

My family who doesn't even play video games think mario is neat. Them watching a sonic game would just confuse the shit out of them

Mario's fanbase is just as cultish and autistic as Sonic's

Not even by a mile.
Sonic spawned an entire autistic sub-fandom of their shitty OCs. Shit like Sonic.exe exists.
Of course Nintendo autism exists, but Sonic absolutely outweighs it by a ton,

Every fucking fanbase has shitty OCs, that has nothing to do with the Sonic fanbase's reputation.

The reason Sonic fans are notorious is for being divided and not agreeing with each other on anything, as a result of all the drastically different versions of Sonic there are.

You have to realize just how easy it is for any old autist to create sonic OCs. All of the characters have the same basic body shape and are designed to be sleek and cool. It's why so many sonic OCs are just recolors of existing characters. When your mario OC is just "orange mario" or "goomba with a gun" not even mario autists are going to take it seriously.

Sonic was never as fundamentally simple as Mario and as such wasn't able to maintain its own core identity through the years.

mario only had 2 good 3d games and one of them most people hate

Luigi and Bowser are both more popular characters than Mario desu. I guess that's what happens when he's so completely and utterly generic.

Both galaxy games and 64 even if you hate Sunshine (which is dumb).

sega dropping all support for sonic for the past decade in a half hasnt done it any favors.

as for mario I guess shit that's polished is enough for people to eat it up

I would never trust a person who picks mario in any game with multiple choices

Mario Wonder had no deadline and Mario Kart World had an 8 year old development cycle and it shows.
Meanwhile Sonic Frontiers was very clearly rushed and Superstars was outsourced to fucking Arzest lmao.

Yet Wonder is somehow less fun than new soup and Mario maker.

I forgot Wonder even existed

It's from the london olympics game: youtu.be/G9azunUEswE?t=1600

just a few spots short of showing yugioh

bullshit...

Some Wonder levels are more creative than the entirety of the NSMB series

Mario is dogshit

Going fast is stupid for platforming

Garbage gameplay propped up by autistic furry playerbase

The only "win" you have on this is that Mario 64 fags are transgender.

Sonic fans are autistic by the way here's your next weekly ad for Super Mario 64 if you stand in the basement for 9 and a half hours Mario emits a single green particle Mario 64 is literally the best game ever designed because of this

Fucked up that the game they finally ditched the Koopalings in was the one that could've actually differentiated them.
And then Bowser Jr. and the Bowser Machines were the same fights every time anyways, making it even worse.

The Koopalings had already been differentiated for years, the real issue is Mario bosses only taking three hits to beat

Mario stuck to a consistent base even despite changing its gimmick shifts every single individual game, Sonic basically changed almost everything almost every other game until the Boost formula, and they still fuck everything up because they undo everything on a dime. Mario's biggest mistakes are usually side stuff where he played it too safe and generic for franchise standards. Sonic's mistake is that their devs literally can't even have a consistent pool of talent before Sega guts them somehow.

It had one good entry with Super Mario 64, as opposed to Sonic that has nothing.

Sonic has to have "gotta go fast" as the core mechanic in every single game.

mario doesn't speak, he just plays
sonic can's shut the fuck up

because the gameplay mechanics!

because of the simplicity!

because of his identity!

because of the autistic fanbase!

You're adults arguing over literal kiddie shit, none of this crap matters to the main demographic, they just want something that looks cool. And that's why Sonic is still a big franchise and is still up there with Mario, no matter how many fagtubers and journalists try to bring him down

And all of them but Party and Golf spawned advanced degenerates.

Mario talks about as much in gameplay as Sonic does. He talks enough that he can't really be considered a silent protagonist. The only difference is in cutscenes.

Sonic hasn't been anywhere close to Mario's level in decades. Sonic is a fucking mess that doesn't know what it wants to be, every game is completely different from the last one.

Sure it is.
gamerant.com/sega-sonic-superstars-low-sales-blames-super-mario-bros-wonder/

Every game is completely different from the last one

A. Imagine saying that you're unironically mad that they didn't just shit out the same game over and over
B. This isn't really all that true, ever since Hedgehog engine came out every game's played like Unleashed. Which came out in fucking 2008 aside from side game crap like the Wii U publishing deal games

The fans' religious dedication to the brand

Imagine saying that you're unironically mad that they didn't just shit out the same game over and over

A franchise needs a consistent identity. Otherwise it's just a bunch of random unrelated shit that happens to star the same characters

The only thing "inconsistent" about the game's identity is bailing on having a variety of playable characters and play styles after '06.

people like mario because he is a human and he has a humble job as plumber
sonic is ostensibly a hedgehog puffed up on meth or cocaine, it only rings true with a few weirdos

Because sonic games are shit simply as
if Sega makes a whole entire standalone Chao garden game it would unironically be the best sonic game

And the gameplay being inconsistent
And the tone being inconsistent
Hell, even the characters themselves are inconsistent

Mario: tale as old as time about saving the princess by navigating levels that test your skill

Sonic has basically two defining ages: >1-the 2cool4school rodent that saves a planet from being turned into robots by a mad scientist by navigating levels that test your reflexes

2- THE GUBMINT THE ULTIMATE WEAPON TIME TRAVEL FUTURE HEDGEHOG GIRL WITH AIDS BAT WITH TITS LIVE TV EXECUTION REVENGE WITH GIANT SPACE LASER WERE WOLF by navigating a rollercoaster which occasionally make you press button or else.

Mario has a strong foundation and they stick to it even with gameplay changes here and there, Sonic changes too much about itself every few years which is what created the whole eras idea. Mario also has a "for the whole family" appeal. Sonic is both too juvenile but also taking itself too seriously for its own good so it aims more towards teens.
Game quality wise, Nintendo really likes to polish their games before release, Sonic has been a budget franchise that gets pushed out the door as soon as it's technically playable. I've always preferred 2D Sonic over 2D Mario but for 3D I think Mario is more fun.
Plus Mario's is an institution, attached to more than just the platforming games. Sonic's biggest claim to fame is that for a short moment he was seen as a genuine threat to Mario's success.

They both suck. Nintendo always plays it super safe and Sega keeps trying to reinvent the wheel with mixed results at best.

mario is only slightly consistent in 2d. in 3d you have sandbox, linear planetoids, obstacle courses, and open world.

wait... so why is sonic worse?

Sonic doesn't have 30 years of speedrunning trannies and youtubers desperately trying to sell you on an n64 launch title being the peak of 3D platforming.

Mario knows what it is, Sonic doesn't.

Then what is Sonic Adventure?

Mario has a huge bestiary of iconic enemies, meanwhile Sonic's most prevalent enemy is robot... and robot... and ladybug robot.....

A pretty alright game that stands on its own and doesn't need 30 years of aggressive marketing to sell people on it.
Although full admission as the resident Sega Bass Fishing enthusiast I recognize that some of the campaigns available to play won't be to everyone's tastes, but for people who just want to get to the end, they're mercifully short.

Very funny.

Sonic was created purely to be the "cool alternative" to Mario
And it failed, the legacy of the franchise is garbage to mid games and CWC

Mario and Sonic have a race to travel directly across the entire planet from their starting position five times, who wins and why?

Sonic has: just recently eaten a chili dog, 99999 rings, full boost meter, all chaos emeralds, all super emeralds, master emerald, all sol emeralds, all world rings

Mario has: 1 coin, full knowledge of parallel universes, speed physics, and velocity physics
In addition, Mario is planning to start the race by going

YAHOO! YAH-YA-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y...

You can get some upsetti in your spaghetti but it doesn't mean what I'm saying ain't true

A pretty alright game that stands on its own

It can barely hold itself together.
Seganiggers truly have no standards.

No one below the age of 30 gives a shit about The Wizard of Oz. Mario just has better games than Sonic.
Come on now, you know exactly what kind of anime that anon was talking about. Are you also going to complain that cowboy movies are called "Westerners"?

Oh please, we're so above Sonic. Not to mention most Adventurefags are demonstrably cubies.

meaningless babble

Very balanced opinion my friend

A pretty alright game

I was about to go ape but you are correct... The music and atmosphere carries a lot the game, and the only fun character to play as are Sonic and Knuckles. Tails is just Sonic on very easy mode.

cubie's best deflection

Mario is a human, Sonic is a furry.

Furries are disgusting degenerates.

"Western" has a specific style and set of tropes associated with it, so it can be considered a genre

"Shonen" does not, as it contains many different genres. There's fighting series, comedy series, romcoms, slice-of-life. "Western" is a set style, while "shonen" refers to literally anything marketed at teenage boys

I mean I beg to differ, I get a lot of fun playing as Big and just fishing, but again, I'm a freak. I get why but I sort of wish there were more stages.

Mario's enemies are iconic mostly due to being used as roster filler in spin-off games since there aren't enough specific named characters.

Sonic has plenty of named characters so it doesn't have to resort to generic enemies to fill out its rosters

Mario Sesenta y Cuatro can clone an object and use it to freeze Sonic in place forever, send him to a PU at a distance that is too large for him to jump back to the main universe, make the lap counter overflow to give himself 5 laps or make Sonic have -32768 laps and lose automatically, or straight up despawn Sonic.

gameplay

Sonic gameplay fucked sucked after it left the genesis, it's still living from Sonic 2 being better than SMW

Sonic could never make the jump to 3D the way that Mario could, since the analog stick offered a massive leg up to Mario, but was largely useless for Sonic games.

le what did he mean by this?

Differences in starting angle add up over distance and while a slower game that is more restricted to a 2D plane allows frequent correction, a faster game that features more prominent Z-axis movement does not. Sonic in 3D would unironically have only worked with a mouse and keyboard, the gains in angular precision and snappiness with the mouse over the thumbstick can't be understated

does anyone have that one super mario 64 gif where one side says

this game sucks

and the other side shows the player engaging with the mechanics and says

this game is awesome

or something like that?

Sonic isn't shit, but looking at Mario you can easily spot the things it lacks to be considered a great one.

But ultimately it comes down to gameplay.
Mario simply always delivers, while Sonic always struggles.

Maybe, but when people call something "shonen" they're referring to a specific type of story with certain tropes, just like a "western" is understood to be a specific genre and not any movie made in the Western Hemisphere.
If you're going to be strict about words coming from the other side of the Pacific, then you'll have to call any animation an "anime", because the Japanese do.

nevermind found it

Sonic isn't even a platformer. The entire series feels like it's ashamed of itself and desperately wants to be any other genre. Name one actual platforming segment in a sonic game that compares to even a mid-game mario level.

spbp

Why are people that sperg the hell out about Sonic so autistic?

But more importantly, what makes you retarded?

If you're a CWC tier autist, nothing.

Mario wasn't sabotaged by insane old Japanese men to spite the gaijin who upstaged them.

CWC hasn't been relevant for years

But he fucked his mom

Nobody, not even the judge actually cared.

and to this day there's still not a single good 3d sonic game

fucking retard

Sonic only exists to this day because the low functioning autism population is ever increasing.

For the same reason Nintendo is still a big player and Sega is just some publisher.

so long gay bowser!

was meant for

Sonic devs are always chasing trends while Mario devs tend to do what they think would be fun.