Could a priest with maxed true faith kill an Antediluvian by reading a Bible verse or something like that?

Pen and paper fag here. Possibly. True faith deals unsoakable damage on touch at 4/5, and at 5/5 it makes vampires cry with just the sight of the faithful person. So, feasibly, if he can survive to touch them and hold them for two turns, they'd die. He can also rebuke them, though iirc that does prompt a willpower check for the vampire.

Congratulations. You're now a Vampire Slayer, Mr. President.

In Blue Exorcist they can instakill demons by reading a specific bible verse, I dunno why they never do that again other than the one time this gimmick was introduced

It's an alternate ending to Gehenna. Saulot prays the Tzimisce antediluvian to death.
The world is cured of vampirism, except for Caine and sometimes the players' characters.

Sunlight

Crucifixes

Holy water

Wooden stakes

Running water

Silver

Hawthorn tree branches

Garlic

If you listed all the shit humans are weak to it this list wouldn't seem nearly as bad.

the real question is, if you could do that, what bible verse would you quote to a vampire to make its head explode?

The context is God in WoD is a master troll and Caine is his straight man. Literally everything is deliberately shit in the WoD because God is teaching Caine a lesson. Caine's curmudgeon ability is almost a match for Him however.

so it genuinely doesn't matter what God does to Caine, he deserves it because he murdered a man in a fit of jealousy and literally can't comprehend why it's wrong
Despite God having set up Caine's descendants to be a race of backstabbing jealous assholes

kinda glorious

Yeah. His brother as that, his blood. Beautiful.

Head explosion isn't enough:

And he went up from thence unto Bethel:

and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him,

'Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.'

And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord.

And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Maul the vampires to death with God-given bears.

Arise, O Lord! Deliver me, my God! Strike all my enemies on the jaw; break the teeth of the wicked. - Psalm 3:7

Another pen and paper fag (1st edition only). I doubt a Mage could take on an Antediluvian even if they did not care for a paradox backlash. I doubt a hunter could.

Ezekiel 23:20

I believe Fortitude at very high levels (8?) allows soaking unsoakable things, though only with your fortitude dice and at difficulty 10.
But more realistically, some shitty mortal is never going to touch a gen 3 vampire. He's never even going to perceive their presence, he's going to die from a thrown tree trunk arriving at mach 5, or the shadows eating a square kilometer of rock under his feat and falling to his death, or a mountain of screaming flesh exploding out of nowhere and being rent apart by hundreds of wailing (living, immune to true faith) mouths.
Disciplines at level 10 are laughably OP.

Well Caine literally invented the concept of murder and ruined everything. As in, death before the appointed hour, in God's perfect Plan. That didn't exist before Caine. It completely disrupted the Plan and God is deliberately letting things play out in this ruined reality to make Caine feel bad. The moment Caine apologizes, God will just reset the timeline back to that fateful moment and Charlie Mike. That's why God isn't really present and doesn't give a shit what is going on, because He intends to wipe the slate clean eventually. And will wait until the heat death of the universe if that is what it takes to budge Caine.

is there a way for a mortal to live through all that by sheer luck/divine providence (they might be the same thing) ?

Good man, I also never played Requiem and all that, it seemed... worse.
I think it ought to be doable, if not easy for an oracle level mage, although yeah, not for the (relative) average mage. They get "op" much quicker, generally speaking. But also to be fair, going from memory, disciplines at 10 go to "storyteller's discretion" or N/A, so it becomes kind of... Eh, I imagine a little like comic fags bickering can go in a who wins between this and that planet throwing character.
I do remember how it's theorized that God in the WoD is just an (once?) human oracle who went even further beyond .

Who's that? I don't remember him from the game.

in general it's mostly because if you play Vampire, you're playing as a low to mid level power player who still has to be wary of various higher authorities because the game is structured around power politics

meanwhile a game of Mage is much more set up for the players to go outside the established structures of power

True, rather strong gameplay reasons there. Well put. Still though. Similar deal with Fallen, I guess. Which, if I was to put the powerlevels on a scale, I guess it's mages > vampires > fallen around the top. Some leeway if including earthbound fallen I suppose, where they'd go above vampires or thereabouts. Maybe werewolves/changing breeds pretty high too if they're channeling their totem or some shit, but at that point they're just kinda furry mages. Which they kind of already are to begin with.

it's also why Antediluvians are so strong, because vampire players are never supposed to be capable of challenging them, or even considering challenging them, storyteller is just supposed to turn any attempt in doing so into an elaborate tragedy or farce depending on his mood

as with all TTRPG's and their lore, you always need to put things in perspective for what the average player character will encounter

Yeah, at least part of it. I do think it generally makes for a better game, at least for the average players/session. It's kinda like with smart characters, the more powerful one is, the harder it can be to write around. Handling idk, a player mage that can rewrite memories of everybody at will is difficult to storytell around, and it can get much weirder from there. Some caveat for good writers, storytellers and players, and characters that survive years of playing and whatnot.

Is this some sort of Lasombra mod I'm unaware of? They are Tzimisce are my favorite clans.

Can true faith backfire? Like you absolutely believe holy water can melt vampires but also believe all vampires are can levitate and fly at will. Could you accidentally give them extra powers and shit?

though to be fair it helps in a TTRPG that it's a cooperative effort between players and GM, so if you intentionally run a high power type of game of any sort, it's with the implicit understanding that the players won't try to prevent the story from happening

There's never been a good game run with a combative atmosphere between players and GM regardless of setting or system

One of the many cool things about WoD is how it's up to the storyteller(GM). That idea definitely would spice up an encounter.

I don't remember this NPC at all in the game

Antediluvians are deliberately not used in games because they break it. You'd need someone like Adam to fight them.

Again, very well put. Particularly so. I agree, at its core, it's at least partly to write and experience a story together, with improvisational theatrics thrown in.
I'd say yeah, though it's arguable if at that point the presumably human character has experienced awakening through his true faith, and is now a mage. That might or might not break or change his faith, the understanding of it as arbitrary/subjective.

He's from the War Games mod. Set in WW2

groovy

Then you confidently employ your limited human abilities and die

I beat off to that pic in the Tzimisce book more times than I can count.

I've always found that interpretation extremely lame.
True Faith isn't just a quirk of psychology that gives you psychic powers.

It's extremely rare for a reason. It's the kind of shit you'd expect from saints and could conceivably be the result of actual divine intervention.

Thanks for that, having only heard snippets of the Antediluvian lore of VtMB I was actually wondering if Caine was legitimately retarded or just seeing how long he could play it after he saw his descendants tear each other apart from the same shortsighted impulse that made him kill Abel.

I'm not really sure what to make of the parable in this context, though. If someone's basically too brain damaged to grasp culpability like Lennie it's still murder, sure, but is it really sin? And if someone were to explain the wrongdoing to him enough to get through, wouldn't it be less inner regret and more external shame?

Depends, do you have spiral power?

Eh, belief is subjective, arbitrary. Different levels of self awareness, but it does track. In somewhat simple terms, sainthood is lack of inner conflict, wholeness of spirit.
It's an interesting question. I'd say that once he properly understands, it'd be regret, or some sort of feeling sorry, as understanding is inner and personal.

So god in WoD is has basically turned the whole of reality into a whack ass parable to teach some asshole a lesson which he will then immediately undo?

That's fucking hilarious.

He's not too stupid, hes too arrogant. Somewhere between thinking he was justified to kill someone else when the prize was God's affection and thinking that he should just be exempt from the rules in general. Murder is deviation from The Plan, God has set an appointed hour when you're meant to go to Him and every time a dumb monkey brains another dumb monkey with a rock over stupid bullshit spits in His face and Caine invented the very concept of stupid bullshit.

Don't have to be religious to use faith

DnD uses that too and it continues to be the dumbest shit.

First it was that you don't have to be LG to be a Paladin, now you don't have to be religious to be a Cleric. It's fucking lame man. It's like the new Exorcist movie making it all about all the different faiths rather than just Catholicism.

Can anyone explain how there are all these ultra powerful shadow organizations like the Camarilla, Technocracy, or Pentex that basically rule the world but somehow they mostly all operate independently of each other with minimal violence or conflict of interest?

Geezeranon who was playing Rein Hagen's shit before white wolf. An antediluvian is survive the flood of noah. Founded a goddam vampire clan. Killing one should be a once in several thousand years sort of thing. Change the entire world thing.

So, reframe this. What power level of priest should be able to change the world? I'd want that priest to have gone on quests, have multiple holy relics, and a squad of misfit heros including an angel, a turncoat devil a burned out mage, and a small asian teenager AND have god intervene directly, on a Noahs Ark sort of level.

Yes. However the antideluvian's entire army of family and minions might have somethign to say about the power hug.

Yes. Remember, that true faith in the christian sense is an expression of God's will, and God sometimes wants his people to suffer. And I mean get Old Testament. Also binding of issac.

Isn't religion just politicized belief?

The question of which one actually rules the world is less clear. Also Think like the movie men in black. They have squads of people to clean up shit. They also tend to agree to not fuck shit up too badly. We have consensus.

Eh, not the WHOLE of reality. Just anywhere that Cain exists.

Depends on the belief

Socialized belief. Politicizing it would be using the organization to gain power which comes (shortly) afterward. Socialization is trying to use it to create a community understanding of why shit is the way it is, how to keep it that way, in what ways it can be made better, and why sometimes you just gotta shut up and tolerate the shitty winter.

Well said

He's literally sitting in a cave doing absolutely nothing because that limits the ways God can fuck with him. Because if he leaves and tries to do anything, God will just Deluge whatever he attempts to build. But the beauty of the Curse is he can still feel all his Children suffering and making each other miserable while he sits there. Caine is actually a pretty nice dude and cares deeply about family. Except you know, the whole brother murder. But that's why the punishment is deliciously appropriate. Caine is just really really Really REALLY REEEEEEALLY stubborn. And believes he is absolutely in the right about the whole sacrifice thing. So much so, when God brings back Abel for Caine to apologize to, Caine just kills him again.

Yes, basically. If you assume the Judaeo-Christian perspective is the legit one (it is).

Anyone played VTM Redemption? It's kind of funny how the protagonist would be the comic relief companion in any other RPG as he's a medieval crusader vampire who talks funny and is suddenly transported to the modern day and has no idea of modern social norms and how to conduct himself, but nope, he's the hero

To be fair, that whole stuff with Lucifer and the since then fallen angels didn't help. In WoD canon, God leaves after opting to personally end the war by doing much less than lifting a finger, when the angels were not quite losing, but struggling. iirc, allegedly no angels have been seen on earth since.
A little like the diseases of Mr. Burns, they balance eachother and bottleneck.

Yes. However the antideluvian's army of family and minions might have somethign to say about the power hug.

Oh yeah. Potentially an issue even for oracles, depending on their specific traits, unless he just uncreates them retroactively through history or some such.

Yes. Remember, that true faith in the christian sense is an expression of God's will

Yeah. Though, also wants humans to understand and express themselves, choose, like with Cain. Subjectivity is something of a necessity, as is free will. Free will is hence a kind of omnipotence. In his image and all.

He's literally sitting in a cave doing absolutely nothing because that limits the ways God can fuck with him. Because if he leaves and tries to do anything, God will just Deluge whatever

Except for driving a taxi cab

when God brings back Abel for Caine to apologize to, Caine just kills him again.

That's insanely committing to the bit, but I guess you can't be eternally cursed twice. Maybe.

lol, I didn't remember that bit about Abel's resurrection. Beautiful. Pic's rather on point too.

Anyone who truly, deeply, IN THEIR FUCKING SOUL believes that they could overcome a vampire or a demon or whatever, is able to do so. That's the meaning of FREE WILL and that's why despite his overwhelming vampire powers, Cain still hides in the shadows, same as all the other wild creatures that are ostensibly more powerful than humans.

They all fucking KNOW that if they go too far, that if they piss off the normalfag humans too much, they're ALL fucked. The Masquerade isn't just to protect the vampires, it exists to protect all of them.

A clever vampire might try to trigger humanity into purging everything and go into deep, long term hiding, so that they might emerge onto a clean and easier slate.

Yes, basically. If you assume the Judaeo-Christian perspective is the legit one (it is).

How on earth does Christianity work in a situation where God is a troll who's planning on deleting the entire timeline once Cain finally folds? What the fuck is the point of the Incarnation in a scenario like that?

Not really him. Or a Malk that think he is him. Or Caine is remoting that Malk that thinks he is him and is actually him.

The situation in VtmB is actually potentially one of the few situations where Caine might have legitimately intervened without God activating troll-mode since it is a very slight bit of maneuvering and God hates the Kuei-jin just as much, allowing Caine a small opportunity to do something small for his Children. I'd like to imagine God rained down frogs on LA the next day for the hell of it.

That shit legitimatly makes no sense. I'm sorry, it just doesn't. It's cool and we all like it because it's cool, but the player's power in Bloodlines is stupid and nonsensical.

It's the same shit as Cyberpunk where V is just way too strong for no actually explained reason and so you've got all these fan theories about how Johnny makes him stronger, or immune to Cyberpsychosis or whatever and none of it is in the game.

There's absolutely no reason to believe Caine can or would randomly make some random Vampire stronger, there's nothing in game hinting that he has and in most of the plotlines that Vampire achieves basically dick squat and possibly gets blown up by C4.

I think there's truth to this, although the ones that get powerful enough to shake things up on a world scale like oracles, generally stop worrying or being bothered by much of it. There's kind of a grace to the nature of the power of humans, or any creatures with free will. Trust in God's plan, or something a lot like it, whatever their specific image or understanding of God might be.
It does potentially work in a number of ways, with the canon/speculation of God having being a "simple" human mage who became a particularly powerful oracle and then some.

It's LA, its natural state of existence is just short of Sodom and Gomorrah

The fact that the Christian God is the very reason for the setting?

That's why it's funny for them now to try work in other faiths when we literally have God and Caine as the opening act.

One of the Messengers (or Lucifer) with knowledge of the Plan went down and basically did the Jesus bit in lieu of and God didn't give a fuck.

It's an RPG

Player characters get progressively stronger in RPGs, almost always much faster than NPCs, that's how it works.

Anyways, sun's coming up so I'll fittingly go to sleep. It's been a good thread anons. And I'd have played/play with you, other pnp fag. You guys have a good one.

you too, anon. sweet dreams

The fact that the Christian God is the very reason for the setting?

Anon, think about what 'Christian' on its own means for a second, and then revisit the question. There is literally no way that this would make any sense at all from a Christian POV.

it's one of the worst things in VTMB and I can't fathom how anyone who's a fan of the setting would defend it.
Caine would simply kill you for trying to talk to him. He no longer cares about vampire politics.

You have to be at least as faithful as pic related

The origins of the Christian faith (an offshoot of Judaism and a predecessor of Islam that recombined them, with roots in cultist pre-jews competing with Egyptian pantheons) is a bit outside the scope of this setting, however.

Would Chris Chan have true faith?

Pivoting the topic a bit
How do you think you would end up if you Awakened?

Personally, I'd probably going absolutely massive into religion and Entropy-max that everything is apart of God's plan, because the only thing really keeping me from going full retard on religious zeal is the fact that the OT is mostly metaphorical (except Exodus, ironically) and more better usage for examining ancient Mesopotamian culture than anything else
Me getting magic wizard powers would probably make me think I was a new Prophet

I gave one plausible explanation. It could be explained as Caine remoting that Malk who thinks he is Caine in order to protect his Children from the Kuei-jin in one of the few scenarios which God wouldn't necessarily intervene to fuck it all up just to spite Caine since he has equal contempt for both parties. Caine doesn't care about the politics at all, just about preventing the Kuei-jin from killing all the Kindred on the West Coast.

Worlds pretty big and when each of those organizations is attempting to work in secrecy and maintain themselves as a shadow organization it's pretty easy to not crossover or notice each other. I mean, for vampires alone, if you do anything to threaten the masquerade you're fucking dead, so it's especially easy for them to keep a low profile.
Usually if theres any mixing of the factions it's from smaller scale individuals rather than the major orgs, right?

Because despite what you may think humanity vastly VASTLY outnumbers all the supernatural shit in WoD. Vampires specifically had their wake up call with the Inquisition, for example.

For the Technocracy, who are probably the closest to the actual NWO, Pentex is just pieces of the them corrupted by Nephandi, and the Camarilla keep their shit under wraps so well the only people figuring that shit out are werewolves and the Inquisition

I suppose. But a vampire can always just outlive a threat like that. After all, they have all the time in the world if they play the cards rights.

I have true faith in the existence of spiral power

Is this a fucking comedy bit? God just fucking with a guy so hard to get him to apologize he has to sulk in a chair alone so that God can't fuck with him as hard? But he's also so stubborn that when given the chance he'll not only refuse to apologize but double down?

I'm pretty sure there was an actual parable somewhere about this exact scenario.

No. Chris Chan is a fucking wizard. A goddam virtual adept of video games and internet shitposting. He has saved the world multiple times but at great cost to paradox. He fucked his mom out of paradox.

So it's like the Alucard bit from Hellsing, where despite being night untouchable and capable of wiping out whole armies, he believes in his very bones that a human can and will kill him, and that ONLY a human can do so, like how Hellsing and his gang originally bested him.

The technocracy effectively guides the huge number of humans in consensus, which acts to shape the world. It's very dangerous to break that.

it's a goddam punch and judy show.

I've been sent to the Solomon Islands, Papua New Guinea, Colombia, Beirut, and the US (LA) for work. The worst and most disgusting place of the five was LA. I have to believe the US is a fourth world country at this point, given I had a better time surrounded by huts made of sticks and feces. I dunno what might cause God to smite shit (not familiar with Sodom and Gomorrah) but I have to believe if any deity existed they would burn that fucking place to the ground. I was staying in the Beverly Hilton and I was still surrounded by fucking retards pissing on every corner. Interacting with residents of LA made me so angry that by day 4 I stopped going anywhere aside from my hotel/embassy. 6 years later I still have to rage about how terrible that place was every time it's mentioned. LA needs a fucking nuke. I would be happy to hear an antediluvian woke up there, but he or she would probably drown in hobo piss trying to find some blood to drink.

My cat just took a huge piss in her litter box. Smells better than "high class" areas of LA. Fuck I hate LA. Seriously. Fuck Americans and fuck LA. Also, wash your fucking hands you fucking animals. It's not enough you piss on every corner or in every alleyway but you also just go to the toilet without washing your hands? You're as bad as pajeets. Fucking hell. I have never been anywhere less sanitary. God it makes me seethe just thinking about the time I was forced to spend there. And amongst all the urine I still had to pay 80 bucks for a haircut. Were I made kindred in LA and was locked in place by the camarilla I'd step into the sun the very next day.

Literally the MO of the order of the Celestial Chorus. Magic and Divine.

sounds retarded
if it happens due to believing it will happen, its no longer faith but instead an expectation of a known event
wouldn't you be omnipotent by simply knowing it works that why?

webm source?

You'd think so. Try telling that to the manifestation general on Anon Babble. You would think a thread of people who believe that imagining becoming a rich slut will make them a rich slut would be full of rich sluts, but for some reason it's full of poor virgins. What a shock.

It's kind of a cool mechanic when it comes to mages in WoD and how believing something hard enough to create it causes backlash if witnesses disbelieve it though.

. I have to believe the US is a fourth world country at this point

Thats the secret anon, its not one country and never truly has been, its more than a dozen different countries all under one trenchcoat of military beatstick. The Appalachian West Virginian doesnt have much in common even with the Alabaman only a few hundred miles away, let alone the mass media petit bourgeoisie who encourage that on a coast thousands of miles away

Reading all thise deep lore about Caine, I'm just thinking to myself, is this setting fun to roleplay in even? A place where you are not just insignificant in the grand scale of things, but insignificant even in your own corner of the world. A setting where you are an eternal background NPC while all the actual main characters are having an anime-esque "my dad can beat up your dad" argument. That's what it sounds like.

Technocracy is to Camarilla what vampires are to humans. Ventrue has a concept of secret masters, they don't know who exactly they are but they suspect there is a group of supernatural that really rule the world. I don't think that's flat out said that group of Supernaturals is Technocracy but it makes sense
Pentex and Technocracy interact and are not independent

A human, an elf, and a dwar take a piss.
The human washes his hands in the river with some soap and says "My parents taught me to take good care of myself".
The elf wipes his hands with a tree leaf and says "My clan's elder taught me to be one with nature and use its gifts to solve my problems".
The dwarf pulls his pants up, crosses his arms, and says "And my ancestors taught me not to piss on my hands".

That's stupid because that's something that 99% of the church has achieved.

I think so
9 dots in True Faith makes an evil creature realize it deserves death

1st edition only

Are you that much of an oldfag or just the most insufferable type of player in existence ?

In my headcanon, God comes as a little sparrow to visit Caine's manlet ass in the cave every evening. God goes and sits on Caine's shoulder while he sits there stoically day after day, trying to ignore him, and God just endlessly shit talks him all day then poops in his hair once He flies off every morning. This continues until the sun explodes.

The splats don't actually mix and anyone pretending otherwise is retarded

And an Australian takes a piss without pissing on his hands but still washes his hands because he doesn't trust the other retards to not have pissed all over themselves before flushing the toilet. But he won't avoid flushing the toilet even though he knows the chain or button has retard-piss all over it, because he's civilized and isn't a fat bald animal.

daily reminder the US has the 2nd highest median disposable income behind Luxembourg (a fake country where noone (like the retail workers or waiters for example) lives but the wealthy

well thats because of income inequality and-

I said MEDIAN
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income#Median_equivalised_disposable_income
LA does smell though, but I went there over a decade ago

From 2021

Nice, now include cost of living on that list real quick, from a more current year.

So God created an entire dark timeline spanning 10k years just to dunk on Caine's bad decision at the very start?
Almost sounds like the most based DM in existence. Like if the player decided to murderhobo in the first session and now has to live with the consequences as a max lvl waiting for the session to end.

When people say that being poor in the US is almost a choice, they're not exactly wrong.
While there's obviously a lot of factors that can make you poor, the strength of the economy, the stability of the dollar and the lower prices on anything make it so Americans earn a lot of cash even on lower incomes. There's a reason third worlders create WEGs or draw porn and generally cater to an English speaking audience, specifically Americans. It's because they want to get paid in dollars and live like kings in their huts.

include cost of living

Do you not know what disposable income is?

Income after things like tax, social security, and medicare are deducted? Also known as net income? Aka not including your cost of living expenses?

he means from the current year, taking into account the recent inflation
I understand where you are coming from, but generally speaking, the entire world was effected by covid, not just the US
and the entire developed world enacted policies to mitigate covid's effects on people, which were all inflationary
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inflation_rate
the US is doing better in that regard than the UK, Norway, Australia, etc
so it stands to reason that the original wiki list I posted is still correct
perhaps my reading comprehension is poor
but yes, disposable income in this case refers to

When taxes and mandatory contributions are subtracted from household income, the result is called net or disposable household income.

They all stay split for good reasons.

Werewolves live outside society, in the wilds with monsters.
Vampires exclusively live in cities AT NIGHT and only interact with proxies or with people they are interested in. You never just bump into a vampire randomly.
Mages live around daytime and in other realities. They aren't slumming it up in night clubs or sewers.
Demons, mummies, changealings, wraiths are all nobodies who barely exist.

They're mostly aware of each other, but not of the power structures. Humans don't even know. A vampire and werewolf are a kill on site type deal.

Humans are humans, we’re not hyped up as these immortal undead predators.

Yeah, it's silly to base your opinion of the country on one state, especially when that state is one even Americans consider grimy as hell and when they'll talk shit on Californians and don't want them in their states. I don't understand why foreigners always look at Americans as a monolith as if even small countries don't have their shitty cities.

My point is your figures are at best misrepresentative of the entire situation you need other data to corroborate how "great" it is in the US, especially since quality of life and even expected income can and will vary wildly depending on what state or hell even what city you're living in which also isn't reflected in the data you're referencing. (As someone who lives here I can anecdotally say it's not as great as you think.)

Anyway since you're actually being polite I think we can drop things here. Have a nice day lad.

But I don't go outside and I for sure didn't piss all over my toilet.

inb4 muh breakfast this morning

I'm the protegonist of the universe and only my perspective matters. You're merely a background character whose life up to this point was filled with events just so I could have something marginally interesting to converse with.

I've been killed both by silver and running water before. It's fucking mental that people think silver knives/bullets and waterboarding only kill monsters. Yeah I know the latter is about crossing it but being killed by something you can't even cross does actually work and it fucking sucks. It's 400x worse than drowning. Imagine having the ENTIRE ANTITHESIS OF YOUR BEING being shoved down your throat. Were I a monster that would really fucking suck, but as a human person being killed by it it sucks a lot more.

If I was dumb enough to try and get into DnD in 2012+13 - I'd personally love it if a DM came up with a creative FUBAR spiral in response to my murder hobo shit. I had this happen in New Vegas and it was hilarious how NCR and Legion would practically fight each other over who gets to try and kill me. Nevermind that I had to learn disguise and sniffer mechanics just so I wouldn't be banned from like 60% of all shops after being declared a gigaterrorist.

expected income can and will vary wildly depending on what state or hell even what city you're living in

thats why I posted the median rather than the average, its genuinely a good representative of the typical American
albeit quality of life IS a different metric, but this is just in response to the idea of the US being third world or some such similar thing. Americans, generally speaking, are richer than literally everyone but Luxembourg even when you take into account things like health insurance, medical expenses, medicare, social security, etc
the typical American is not some inner city gangbanger, or some backwoods opiate addict
the typical American works a 9-5 in a desk job and drives to their home in the suburbs

Shut the fuck up Adam, don't spout my arguments back at me just so ol' m8 pisshands can find an excuse for his daily pisshanding.

I just have to mention that San Francisco is in the same state but it's an 8 hour drive
Just for comparison, It takes 5 hours to drive from London to Paris.

San Francisco is a gorgeous jewel. If the Politicians running the state and city weren't the purist distilled essence of libtarded shittery and suicidal inclination towards equality and anti white policies, it could be a city on par with Tokyo. The potential is there, it's a fucking beautiful city with slightly too many trannies and minorities.

Europe values each city as irreplacable, America will allow the free Market economy and Demographic changes completely destroy and hollow out one of their most valuable cities and not lift a finger because they can easily build another than will have a higher GDP than most of Europe. Detroit, Michigan and Baltimore were the wealthiest cities in the world at one point. Now they're African Zoos where the local city can't afford to replace a water filter. The European mind cannot comprehend the American one.

Completely based. I wish more games let you feel that. Killing even a handful of NCR or Legion is a big deal to them and will drastically alter an entire game. You could kill any stormcloaks in skyrim and later join them with impunity.

This is what Communism does. LA was actually still amazing in the 90s. And it wasn't so bad up until Obama got elected and they decided they had a mandate to go full socialism into Hell. What you've seen is the rotting corpse of what used to be paradise.

thats why I posted the median rather than the average, its genuinely a good representative of the typical American

It's not for a few reasons, mainly for one ir's skewed on the fact that it encompasses the entire country which is fucking massive. Certain areas of the country are going to be impoverished by an order of magnitude compared to other areas. That figure is skewed by numbers of people in areas like New York and California making over that median amount.

And moreover that figure doesn't even show wealth it just shows income after you deduct taxes. Not things like debt, rent, groceries, or transportation (not to mention if they have children) which eat into that number massively and thus is deceptive. Your assertion that most Americans work a stable 9 to 5 and then go to the suburbs is simply incorrect. Most Americans I would say right now are struggling in some way shape form.

SF has been getting better.
It used to be that the ho0mless would literally shit on every street. Now the worst of it has been corralled into The Tenderloin which is sadly the kind of place you can't go more than 5 steps without seeing a used needle.

Killing even a handful of NCR or Legion is a big deal to them and will drastically alter an entire game.

You're completely forgiven by Caesar the moment you step out of the Lucky 38 though. You can foil the Legion's plans everywhere and kill hundreds of them and you still get a get out of jail free card, I assume there's something similar for the NCR. I get why they did it though, to prevent the player from accidentally locking themselves out of joining a major faction because they killed a few dudes at an outpost somewhere.

Your partly overstating it, most Americans do work those 9-5s and can pay the bills, but are two bad months from being out on the street.
But places like the cotton belt do struggle deeply and there is a reason fentanyl is a major talking point.

Californians have thankfully realized how fucked up "let people enjoy things man" can be. They tried giving homeless what they want with safe injection sites, they tried giving them every capitulation, conceded all territory, used kid gloves and tried every method to be nice.

Now Californians are based as hell. Most of them just want Homeless gone by any means necessary and that's coming with Rounding them up into camps with NOTHING. No TV, no Internet.

California is basicaly Steven Jobs with cancer, thinking orange juice and Avocados will cure him.

I've been killed both by silver and running water before.

I wouldn't call never being able to purchase a home, or 2 bad months from being out on the street stable. But I was trying to hammer home the point that a wikipedia article from 4 fucking years ago is not a good metric for how America is doing as a country.

First quote reply is an accident sorry

the taxi driver is caine. cry about it

nobody cares about your dead board game from some hack writer

It's unstoppable!

dont respond to larpers

basically vampires and all other unholy creatures are FUCKED if humanity wakes up to their presence. they'd kill many humans, maybe even most, but not all. Humans would win in the end as the ultimate neutralizing presence. And the big players realize this, which is why they force the small guys to keep themselves in check or face consequences worse than genocide at human hands.

That really depends on the GM and your fellow players, like any other game. IMO the best plays mostly by the rules but also allows for the rule of cool

you can play mage and werewolf instead

Exactly. Any time you talk about whether a game lets you kill everyone it's always midwit pseuds accusing you of not being capable of proper roleplay, but they really don't get how a petty altercation with a quest giver NPC near Novac can eventually enhance the experience by just turning once regular locations into absolute clusterfucks.

Remember that vamps were terrified of humans even before the crusades and the Inquisition. Remember that this is ultimately an Abrahamic God made setting and therefore humans are made in His image, and therefore have the highest potential of all. Remember that modern human tech now makes the average person who has decent gun training hundreds of times more threatening, dangerous, and resourceful compared to the peasantry of the middle century. Remember that modern humanity has not only nukes and the like, but artillery that would would require the strongest of forces to band together to minimize the destruction of the surrounding area and collateral.

They are very much afraid, and every kindred is fully aware. The supremacy shit is quite literally a fucking LARP and a cope because the setting really really REALLY wants vamps to be both the oppressors and the miserably oppressed, and that vampire hunters very much still exist in the modern age with far more plausible deniability whenever they dust a kindred compared to earlier human ages. The only one who isn't afraid is Cain, and for good reason.

but multiple antediluvians have been killed by vampires

Has Adam ever appeared in any of the WoD books? Is he powerful or just some dude?

VTM - Bloodhunt

I'm sorry anons
I mean no disrespect but I don't think you know what median means
its not the average/mean
the median refers to the middle value within a number set
EG: if individual A has $20,000, individual B has $50,000 and individual C has $100,000,000,000
then the median value would be $50,000 (not 33,333,356,666.67)
another eg would be if individuals A,B,C,D,E....Y had $1, and indivial Z had $999,999
than the median individual would have $1 (which better represents the typical individual)

it just shows income after you deduct taxes

this is a stronger point, as that wikipedia page does NOT specify if rent/housing is considered part of "mandatory contributions" Which is important as notably rent in the US is on average higher than other industrialized nations and rent/housing is typically the largest household expense
but I can not actually find *median* rent data, as the US does have the richest in the world, with Manhattan's rent alone greatly skewing the data so I can't really say whether or not that point is valid or should be ignored, as I'm sure we would both agree that having higher disposable income wouldn't matter if you spent it all on rent
although another point to consider would be rent per square foot as the average American also has a home twice the size of a typical German's, so one would expect them to cost more, which would be a sign of having more "real" disposable income

regardless, it only seems clear that neither of us has the data necessary to make our arguments
sad

Who knows.

Mages in WoD skirt this issue by being able to rewrite reality at will, but reality tries to kill them if what they did looks like unexplainable bullshit to normal people. In WoD, a man wearing wizard robes and throwing fireballs, or a dude dressing up like Neo and being a "hacker" (he just makes technology do shit it shouldn't) is the only way to not get your skull crushed by the universe for using magic powers.

Well I don't think any Vampires are under any delusion that they truly ruled humanity or held any supremacy.
Vampires are fully aware that they are nothing but damned parasites, cursed to live in the underbelly of humanity where they cannot full scratch them off.
All of their powers makes them incapable of being anything but a parasite. They can't live away from humans without starving, all their powers are built around manipulating humans. Even a Vampire at the top of human society is in a precarious position with too much exposure. They can be nothing more than a flea in the grand scheme of things.

My favorite clan are the Tzimisce. Not so much the "fleshchange a living person into a living lamp cover with his awareness intact because lol lmao" sort, though I do like them. I prefer the ones who just chill out in their domain of choice larping as reclusive lords, a a bunch of sanguine Oblomovs or southern aristocrat NEETs. I also like how the clan at large are among the few who fight back against the accusations that the Saulot are demon-worshippers and diablerists, though I think that's mostly just because they hate the Tremere THAT much and would probably defend the Baali if it meant they could stick it to those blood-mage nerds. I just really like them for their lordly aspect.

Mandatory contributions are things that are literally removed directly out of your paycheck before you even have a chance to look at it. Which no does not include rent, that is a living expense which is not included. Moreover this is done on a by household basis which if you include households with children those expenses are going to increase even more.

Moreover that median value you listed is not going to be accurate for a guy in say fucking Appalachia. Bro you need to do better than a fucking wikipedia article (from 4 years ago) if you want to glaze the US.

Exactly. We can even use someone like Alucard from Hellsing as a perfect example of how a single individual will never, ever compare to the whole of mankind. Alucard is secretly scared shitless of humans because he knows a human will do him in, and there are literally billions out there. He has to kill all several billions of humans without once succumbing, whereas all several billions of humans just have to get him once.

No one is truly untouchable in WoD unless you're a cosmic entity. Even Cain; because it isn't Cain so much that makes him impossible to be killed so much as it is God himself won't fucking allow it. Which is why it's a sort of grim humor to me that there are fags who will scream until they're spitting blood that Alucard is "completely invincible and beyond humanity" when the literal fucking show and manga itself makes a whole ass deal that in spite of Alucard's identity and powers, he knows he's just a lone faggot against the entire world. That's not a fight you win, period. Unless you're a power fantasy or a cultivator.

Awakens an "aspect of Vicissitude" within you and your entire species

:^)

I prefer RPGs to tell stories that're consistent.

Your character's sire dies like a dog on LaCroix's orders, and yet your character can ignore his compulsion. It doesn't make sense.

shut the fuck up, you fucking faggot. no one cares what you ahve to say

In WoD, a man wearing wizard robes and throwing fireballs, or a dude dressing up like Neo and being a "hacker" (he just makes technology do shit it shouldn't) is the only way to not get your skull crushed by the universe for using magic powers.

So you have to look the part as well? Because that's kind of hilarious. An ancient wizard can't use his power unless he put on his robe and wizard hat.

America will allow the free Market economy and Demographic changes completely destroy and hollow out one of their most valuable cities and not lift a finger because they can easily build another than will have a higher GDP than most of Europe

This might be true a few decades ago when America was good at infrastructure.

America is no longer good at infrastructure. California has trouble building trains, other places are no better.

Because Vampires are a minority and if people learned they exist, it would be a game over for them. Even if they are powerful, they cannot handle whole humanity hunting them.

Well in DnD a priest could have goals rather than deities because in DnD deities aren't on the same level as real life deities.
The Christian God is almighty, is all powerful, created everything and anything.
The DnD gods are just people that were mortal and now reached level 30 and so they're super powerful.
When you can become a god, it makes sense that you don't necessarily need actual gods to be powerful.

LA was actually still amazing in the 90s.

Bullshit. I've seen Predator 2 and Falling Down.

[Laughs in sunlight]

If you think other supernaturals would just stand aside and let an Antediluvian wreck shit you're insane. Look at what happened with Ravnos.

I don't understand why this game has such a cult following. I played it recently. It's janky as fuck and has literally one good quest (the quest where you resolve the issues with Jeanette). All the rest of them were boring and forgettable. The combat sucked ass too, maybe it was just the class I played but spamming fortitude and the burrowing beetles constantly and swinging my bat was not fun at all. I ended up save scumming through the last like 5 hours of the game because it was so tedious and I just wanted to get it over with. The ending is completely not satisfying either, and pretty much invalidates everything you've been going through. The atmosphere was cool and it had a lot of great voice acting, I'll give it that, but you can tell it was a rushed half finished game that started out strong and then just completely shit the bed when the devs didn't have time to work on it anymore. I have no idea why Anon Babble circle jerks it so much

not in bloodlines. its transcendent and proves that vampires dont have to be gay. its just that gay people are weirdly attracted to vampire material and make it gay in most depictions, including most VtM material outside of bloodlines and redemption. but it doesnt have to be that way. we just have to find the courage as a society to do the right thing. a final solution of sorts, if you will

the reason is simple. you're a soulless npc. like most zoomers

it's not an offshoot of Hebrewism. Christ was prophesized and there in the Old Testament from the very beginning. Even the language in Genesis when God is shaping the Heavens and the Earth makes use of "we" and "us". "Let us make man in our image."

I don't really have a good answer for you. Yeah, the combat sucks and so does the ending. But the game is simply charming. And it has a lot of the early 00's writing that you just don't see in games anymore.

Fags regularly engage in sexual exploration (which is how they became fags to begin with) and therefore the kink scene rather prominently. Because they're so hypersexualized by their own fetishes and desires to be accepted, they project their issues on vampires because vampires traditionally get nothing from actual sex itself and instead get the exact same "euphoric rush" off of feeding on people. But these people are so brain rotted by pornography and overindulging on kink shit that they have fried their reasoning completely inside out, and can only see vampires as sexual deviants just like them who are all secretly way more powerful than the majority who oppresses them, but fears them because it would take a few pogroms to wipe them out and beat the survivors back in the closet for another good few centuries.

Nevermind that there's plenty of vampire storytelling that focuses instead on chasing the high of the euphoria of what is effectively just a dopamine deluge and you can get the same effect off of drugs, alcohol, and many other vices that completely sidestep and outright alienate sex (yes, that includes a rather pious choir singing a good hymn at church, religious euphoria is a well known thing). To these freaks, EVERYTHING is sex because their perversion is the only way they can safely indulge in their "identity". And that's why they can't ever separate the kink and perversion from their "identity", because they themselves made it that way from the start.

The irony here is that they're more like the Black Spiral Dancers than the kindred, but they obviously would take extreme umbrage at having to face reality.

How do you think you would end up if you Awakened?

14 inch dick.

That doesn't necessarily imply the existence of a "separate but unified" Christ-like being. But hey let's save the theological debates for a less cozy thread, my friend.

It's still better than other games at what it does, 20+ years later. You're either retarded or baiting not to see that, in either way please kill yourself ASAP.

It does through other passages. Christ refers to Himself as "the Son of Man" numerous times. As well as the verse "those who have seen Me have seen the Father." The Trinity isn't explicity stated but we know it's a thing through numerous inferences and from things like Pentacost in Acts. Shame you don't want to discuss further :C

brother to be honest with you, I can't speak or read the language the Book(s) were written in, and I don't trust the translators.

It's more that if you just stand still and do nothing, and turn someone into fractals or some shit, the universe itself will try to kill you because you went against the common consensus of how feality works. Conversely, if normal people can go "ohhhhh, it's like X" and accept what you did as real, even if it's "fantasy", you can get away with it. The harder you make random people on the street go "that makes zero sense" and furrow their brow as they reject what you did as not possible, the more violently you'll be punished. It turns Mage: the Ascension games into a fun roleplay experiment, and explains why you can have dudes in trenchcoats standing next to Eric, the Great and Powerful.

So you have to look the part as well?

You just have to convince the normalfags that its within expectation. It's not about looking the part it's about duping them into not thinking about it too hard. Thulsa Doom shooting snake arrows or a dude in iron man armor are impossible but less impossible than farting screwdrivers that core out your soul through your urethra. Being commonly known and accepted as doing cool shit makes the mental shorthand easier and thus the rubber band snapback less punishing.

That sounds like fun. I might have to run this with my group. I assume there's a mechanic related to this as well, or is it pure GM decision?
Never ran a WoD system before.

real life deities

Deities in DnD are not creation myth entities that can just will everything else out of existence if they so wanted to. The strongest deity in DnD would get assraped by an IRL deity. They're far more like overly dramatic daedric princes from Elder Scrolls games than they are anything like real world analogs.

But yes, anon saying that out of context is pretty funny.

What's WoD like since that God Machine thing?

As far as I understand it, it's not just that you believe something will happen, but rather that you believe IN something so hard that you gain devotion to it and protection from your belief. Basically, true faith is not "I believe I can fly so hard that I become able to fly", but rather "I worship airplanes so hard that making a wing symbol with my hands and making jet engine noises will hurt unholy beings". Of course the belief is normally for actual religions and not silly shit like this.

Even the language in Genesis when God is shaping the Heavens and the Earth makes use of "we" and "us".

Anon, this is because Judaism was originally polytheistic. The "we" here refers to different gods in a pantheon.

I get your reasoning, but God wouldn't allow that to happen. Now as for stuff like book of Enoch (and potentially who knows what else existing) that's another argument. Regardless, what we have I think is complete just about.

newtestamentchristians.com/bible-study-resources/351-old-testament-prophecies-fulfilled-in-jesus-christ/

If satan or anyone tried to meddle with the Bible, they didn't do a good job. You can look up any of those verses in any Bible to fact check and it will all say the same thing just about (different versions and wording and all that).

it's one of the worst things in VTMB and I can't fathom how anyone who's a fan of the setting would defend it.

Because it's poetic that the guy cursed to wander the earth forever without rest became a cab driver. It's also fitting that someone with near infinite power is just bored and fucking around.

"Judaism" isn't the right term for the religion ancient Israelites practiced. Hebrewism would be the better name. As for it polytheistic - in a way it's right. Several times the Old Testament refers to other "lesser gods" such as moloch and baal and the sacrifices they got from the canaanites and other groups of people. Hell, there was probably some Israelites that worshipped these deities at some point (they were caught worshipping the golden calf when Moses came down from Mt. Sinai). The point is, in Genesis its clearly referencing Christ when looking through with a New Testament lens and everything we know about Christianity today with plenty of Bible study from thousands of years. In addition, there are lesser "gods" but they are nowhere near in power and ability like the true God. The prophets and writers of the Old Testament were aware of these lesser deities (fallen angels larping as gods undoubtley) and made note of them.

Only Joseph Joestar could pull off something retardedly lucky as that.

Hell, there was probably some Israelites that worshipped these deities at some point

Edomites arguably never stopped, they just migrated northward into Judea

Other deities existed, and God didn't give a fat shit about them. All he demanded is if you're gonna worship him, you ONLY worship him. The rest of the world did not exist to those people, and so to them where they were WAS the world. Notice that not once did God decide to have enough with the Egyptian gods and either slaughter them or unmake them. Rather, God left them the fuck alone. Notice how Moses never challenged the existence of the Egyptian gods, and only the priests of said gods questioned Moses's.

The only way that those gods would be fallen angels would be to not only accept Enoch as canon, but to actively castigate and permanently remove Revelations from the whole bible because the two grossly contradict one another and is part of the major reason why Enoch is excluded from Biblical canon.

"Judaism" isn't the right term for the religion ancient Israelites practiced. Hebrewism would be the better name.

I know, but it's easier to trust that everyone here knows what I mean when I use shorthand like that. The specific name isn't really important, I sometimes refer to the people as Israelites, sometimes when I'm lazy I just say Jews, Hebrews, etc.
Also, I'm aware of your perspective, but personally to me it makes more sense and explains everything about the OT conflicts between gods if you assume that the Israelites were polytheistic and their support for the different gods fluctuated based on their situation. During military struggle they needed a warrior god like Yahweh, but during peace they went back to the gods of agriculture and fertility, and so on. The shift to pure monotheism happened during the Babylonian exile according to archeological evidence and it seems to check out for me.

Also this. The narrative was never "our God is the only god and your gods are false", but instead "our God is the STRONGEST god".

sometimes refer to the people as Israelites, sometimes when I'm lazy I just say Jews, Hebrews, etc.

Unstable terrain that, there were 12 different tribes for a reason and the modern connotation of jew does not apply like the ancient connotation

Even better, it's explicitly "our God is the STRONGEST god (so don't fuck with us and leave us alone)".

At 5 points of true faith they can make almost any vampire to sobbing little wrecks.
Antediluvians are a plot device though up to the DM if it does something.
Might take another 10 point true faith plot device to do something.

Caiaphas Smith shows how based true faith can be

born in the early 19th century

hates vampires to the point of madness

has hunted them non-stop for over a hundred years

extends his life with vampire blood

his faith burns with extraordinary power: under the original Faith rules, his rating is over six dots – high enough to perform miracles that just cause him to win fights he is in

most vampire factions have banned vampires from going near him so that he will just fucking die of old age

very true. edom still exists spiritually today in the fake israel we have.
other deities existed but they were like moloch and baal - that is to say demons. You're supposed to only worship God because that is what we were made for. Adam and Eve were in literal paradise until they made the retarded decision to listen to satan (also a retard). Now, I 100% get and will even sympathize with anyone having a problem with this. Why is satan even allowed to exist? Why do we have to suffer because adam and eve fucked up? We didn't make that choice, so why do we have to take on the struggle too? It would make me insane if I didn't eventually figure out (through other people smarter than me) that God purposely allowed it to happen, because He knew humans didn't trust Him enough to obey. The fact that God never abandons humanity throughout the Old Testament (even though the Israelites did many times) and had Christ be born from the Davidic bloodline; only to die in absolute agony and humilation in front of people who didn't care about Him. God tells us that even at our ugliest as fallen creatures that sin, rape, and kill each other that He still loves us to die on the cross for us.

The rest of the world did not exist to those people, and so to them where they were WAS the world. Notice that not once did God decide to have enough with the Egyptian gods and either slaughter them or unmake them. Rather, God left them the fuck alone. Notice how Moses never challenged the existence of the Egyptian gods, and only the priests of said gods questioned Moses's.

The Israelites were too busy being conquered and enslaved over and over to care about the "rest of the world" (sometimes their fault and others not). They had their own struggles, and God specifically chose them because they would eventually birth the Messiah. He "set aside them" so that eventual salvation could come to the entire world. If God didn't care about everyone else the NT wouldn't exist.

I'm a Southern Baptist and you guys are retarded. Go into the water you fucking retard before it's too late.

sometimes their fault

*bar kokhba rebellion intensifies*

Sure, but the point is that they were still acknowledged as gods and not demons / fallen angels tricking people.

other deities existed but they were like moloch and baal - that is to say demons

See above. You'd think that if they truly were considered demons, Yahweh would explicitly mention it as a reason not to worship them, but instead it's always just "you shouldn't worship those other gods before me" or "I am stronger than other gods". It feels that to the people who wrote the original texts the context was always obviously polytheistic and the idea that actually, there's only one God and those others are demons is a much more modern revisionism.

God's people are people who ultimately choose to worship him. If you don't want to worship him, you don't have to fucking worship him. The only time God will ever beef with you is if you either go out of your way to blaspheme him as a challenge to his authority and power, or if you go out of your way to fuck with his people.

When I say God doesn't give a fuck, I mean God doesn't fucking care that abbos in what is now modern day Australia back during the Old Testament are mixing textile woven cloths and are eating "forbidden meat". God didn't give a shit about the Zoroastroans. He cares about humanity as a whole, yes. He loves mankind. But he doesn't care what they do as long as they don't go out of their way to antagonize him or his people. It is quite literally and essentially an NAP. In the Biblical faith, God is the one who created everything. In every other faith, their pantheon is who created everything. But they don't deny each others' religions OR deities.

Again: if they are demons/fallen angels, then Revelations is noncanon. It's one or the other, Anon.

Tfw no VtM movie with Anthony Hopkins as Caiaphas.

This. There are many obvious, glaring flaws in the game. But despite that, it's still a great game. just the power of SOUL I guess

anon...your belief says that your god sends people to suffer for eternity unless they kneel to him and obey his commands. I think only a very insecure god would behave in that way. It's like a dude who gets mad at every woman who rejects him, that's just silly man

sends people to suffer for eternity

Care to cite the passage? Because it's actually just that they miss out on the Kingdom of Heaven, firey pit nonsense started later.

my post was too long. the post limit frustrates me sometimes. To continue: God doesn't NEED to care about the egpytian gods (or any other fake ones for that matter) because they either straight up don't exist or because they are demons masquerading as something that could be called a deity. Similiarly, Moses doesn't NEED to challenge these gods because he's doing insane shit like parting the seas, turning the Nile blood red, and having his staff turn into a snake because God is in control performing all these things and has infinite power. The priests of Egypt challenged and taunted the Israelites for their entire captivity in Egypt, and here's Moses finally proving to them what the true God can do.

The only way that those gods would be fallen angels would be to not only accept Enoch as canon, but to actively castigate and permanently remove Revelations from the whole bible because the two grossly contradict one another and is part of the major reason why Enoch is excluded from Biblical canon.

As for this, I don't really have much to say since I haven't read Enoch seriously enough. Although I seem to remember even in this book there is prophesies to Christ (or it outright mentions Him, I'm not sure).

yes it just bothers me because present day people living in Israel love to hide behind those terms lol. I actually agree with a lot of your post, it would make sense that they would fluctuate in beliefs because they were getting conquered so much. I actually had a conversation with a friend about this. This is probably why a lot of the actual Israelites during Christ's time who rejected Him did so because they thought He would be an earthly ruler.

??? I'm already baptized? If this isn't a bait comment, your post is really funny because you don't believe in the real presence of Christ in the eucharist, LOL.

Agreed, but not before the NT. Israelites were the "chosen" to harbor Christ. That's it.

firey pit nonsense started later

that's true but the fact remains. eternal suffering is defined as eternal separation from God because you rejected him so he just leaves you to rot in the trash forever lol. not so merciful to leave the nonbelievers in eternal hopeless darkness, torture or not it's the same thing in the end. IMO hell wouldn't be fire and torture, just cold and dark, forever

I think God is a much better "person" than that

Revelation talks about the Lake of Fire being where the antichrist is from

This might shock you, anon, but Christianity is shattered into a huge mess of disagreeing sects who interpret the Bible differently from one another and even those sects have sects that disagree which has sects which disagree which--it's a fucking fractal.

The fact is, however, that interpreting the Bible as 100% historical fact and failing to actually read it (I cannot tell you how many "Christians" have never fucking read Romans and never actually read any of Jesus's parables like the mustard seed, because then they'd have to acknowledge they're dead fucking wrong about people not in the faith's fate after death) is genuinely retarded. Even actual Biblical scholars and ordained priests will tell you that not everything is literal, there is very much a lot of metaphors and stories that are meant to convey a message and a point that are just that--stories. People who don't actually fucking read it are the ones who genuinely think quoting fucking LEVITICUS as if it still fucking matters after Jesus's sacrifice isn't genuine fucking blasphemy to the faith. But I'm not here to debate faith as I am to clarify that other gods exist, whether or not who made what is ultimately up to your faith, we won't know until we die. Making a pissing contest out of it is juvenile when even God himself never once made a point to do it.

Can we discuss how retarded Werewolf wank this game had?, Rokea would BTFO Garous, let alone Weeb girl and PC

Just stop thinking bro
Eternal life ain't yours so just embrace the peace of death and Hades.

quoting Leviticus is wrong

It’s where Christians get a lot of other rules like looking down on tattoos and piercings, which is pretty consistent with trad values anyways
A lot of people correctly assume the OT is still stapled on for a reason and not just optional reading if you want to be a sincere follower of Christ

Making a pissing contest out of it is juvenile when even God himself never once made a point to do it

that's the main thing in my opinion as well. the different sub-sub-sub-religions that ostensibly come from the same place are like how empires fracture when the top dude relaxes and all the underdogs start competing for power and authority. it's just silly

death isn't the end my friend. unless you want it to be, then maybe your wish will be granted. even then, I doubt eternity is eternal

I'm sorry anon, what was it again that so many laws against man were levied? What was it again that was made by Adam and therefore we have to pay the price? What was it again that Christ died to resolve and pay for himself so man doesn't have to?

even if they're not demons, you shouldn't worship anything else but God; deity or otherwise. You can worship material things, ideas, even yourself. Because we are broken we find ourselves filling the void only God can (I know this because I have done it many times and still do to a degree; it sucks).
I couldn't fit all of my response in, I wanted to say more. Ideally, everyone should be worshipping the Christian God. Like you're saying, He won't force anyone to, but it would be far more beneficial if they did worship Him. Abbos who have never heard of God and die will not be blamed for not knowing who He is, just like the Zoroastrians of Babylon might've (because mostly everyone in the world did not hear about God due to it being contained in Israel and the surrounding area).

Again: if they are demons/fallen angels, then Revelations is noncanon. It's one or the other, Anon.

I don't understand why you are saying this. I already told you I am not familiar with Enoch.

Serena my beloved

All vampires get the rope.

optional reading

Its nothing to do with not reading it it's accepting that those are no longer laws God practices as part of Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection. Mankind is still free to look down on any dumb bitch with a septum piercing but you're not losing out on Heaven for it, that particular covenant with God is null and void.

there's a reason all those supernatural fucks hide themselves from humanity. they know that they'd get fucked if they go too far.

If the Bible gives you clear instructions, it’s best to follow them if you are the kind of person who claims to believe in Christ
It’s like arguing to a judge that you don’t have to follow the law while also claiming to be a lawyer

What if this law contradicts other laws? What if following this law in some cases will make you to break other laws? What if that law had been written in illegitimately? What if some judges support this law, but others don't? What if supreme judge supports this law, but older laws tell, that this law is wrong? What if the system is broken and bugged?

Enoch expounds upon the natures of angels, fallen angels, and the notion of their kind attempting to trick humanity into thinking they're God themselves. The entire rhetoric about "demons tricking mankind" comes from Enoch. Which is not canon and most sects will get very pissy with you if you try to argue it is. But will STILL end up quoting it and use what it talks about either in total blind ignorance that they're quoting it (the most likely reason) or they're fully aware and are using God's name in vain to further their own interests against you and others.

The book of Revelations is not endemic towards the existence of Christ. Christ exists with AND without Revelations. In fact, there's a lot of evidence that Revelations was quite literally cope back when Nero was making sure the only good Christian was a dead Christian. Back when, for Christians, was effectively the end of the literal world for them as they knew it.

It is not "ideal" for everyone to become under God, because that flies in the face of free will. It's very simple and easy, anon. If everyone is converting because they're being told to, then there is no free will. And all of this was a waste of time. Are you going to suggest God's plan is a waste of time? Are you going to doubt and reject his importance on free will and the consequences it brings, as well as letting let live those who don't wish to be under his wing? OT is important not just for historical context, OT is important for context of the exact magnitude and reason Christ sacrifices himself for mankind. If you genuinely fucking think the punishment for original sin is still due after Christ died PRECISELY to excise it, then you do not believe Christ died for your sins and you are not a fucking follower of Christ. End of fucking discussion. Straight out. Adopting the laws of Leviticus because it benefits the conservative culture of tradition is one thing. Quoting it as God's will even now is blasphemy.

Period.

Are you implying that God makes mistakes?
That is heavily antithetical to everything Christians believe

"rend unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and rend unto God what is God's"

aka "pay your fucking taxes or the Romans will kill us, don't worry, God still owns your soul no matter what lmao"

Ah, i see. So if there is two commandments "to kill" and "not to kill", you must follow any of them and be forcedly bad because the big guy wants you to be guilty.

Alucard isn't scared, he WANTS to be killed. He just doesn't believe that anyone other than a human is worthy of it, or able to do it in the first place. He basically desires a particular narrative for his death, a human overcoming the monster because that's what humans do. He becomes viscerally disgusted whenever a promising human opponent gives in and becomes a monster.

If the Bible gives you clear instructions, it’s best to follow them if you are the kind of person who claims to believe in Christ

If you believe in Christ as attested by the Bible, that is. It's fringe, but there is an element that believes in Christ while also rejecting Scripture as a human work produced much too late to be a salient account of the Messiah.

You're right, my bad, I got details mixed up a bit there.

Don't worry, the concept of humans having the potential to best monsters was still correct, I just had to be autistic about Alucard's characterization.

Gods commandments for the Israelites to commit genocide aren’t the same thing as Moses reading out the 10 commandments and telling you that you can’t murder people indiscriminately
The Almighty will know you’re arguing in bad faith or just straight lying when you have to explain this to Him btw

they wanted her to return in the modern day part of the game (she even has unused voice lines talking with Christof 1000 years later)

they couldn't do it because they ran out of money and time

dammit. why best girls must always suffer so much

Antideluvian are biblical creatures themselves. You need an angel for that shit.

You had every right to be, I'm ashamed I forgot that and accidentally drifted into Castlevania for a second there. It's Alucard's most defining characteristic and what makes him as a character compelling in spite of the power wankery.

Yeah, I’ve interacted with those types of Christians too. They’re worse than evangelicals imo, and just play on what they personally believe at any given time rather than any religious doctrine

I'd make hentai logic real. Would be fun to see how humanity adjusts with regards to fashion and plumbing etc. when suddenly there are futas with two feet long cocks walking around who cum buckets every time.

socialism is simply white genocide

do you still need a clue in 2025? the 200 millions christians in the USSR, every fucking member of the ussr government being jewish, stalin himself looking like a gigantic jew?

third world low empathy + white intelligence = perversion. these mutts will end everything good if you let them

That sounds like some gay shounen shit

what else can you do? play on the personal beliefs of all the editors of the word? the king james version was openly and obviously edited for that man's personal and political goals, but people still swear by it like it's somehow still the word of God lol and that's not even the worst or most obviously corrupted version that people still use

The entire rhetoric about "demons tricking mankind" comes from Enoch.

satan literally tricks Eve and by proxy Adam that they weren't already of God and that He was hiding the knowledge of good and evil from them. When in reality, they were already made in His image and could create and do just about everything God could. If satan - a fallen angel - can trick people, why can't other demons?? They're all fallen angels. Genesis is part of the canon and tells us all this.

In fact, there's a lot of evidence that Revelations was quite literally cope back when Nero was making sure the only good Christian was a dead Christian. Back when, for Christians, was effectively the end of the literal world for them as they knew it.

This doesn't make a lot of sense when there's already Revelation tier stuff being said in the Gospels - like Matthew 24 and Mark 13. Also, Nero could just oppress and kill Christians as he pleased, why create another book of the Bible to scare them further? Revelations is widely attributed to John anyways, he was divinely inspired to write it out when he was super old and in prison I believe.

It is not "ideal" for everyone to become under God, because that flies in the face of free will. It's very simple and easy, anon. If everyone is converting because they're being told to, then there is no free will. And all of this was a waste of time. Are you going to suggest God's plan is a waste of time?

You misunderstood what I said. I meant that it would be ideal if everyone would become Christian of their own accord, not that its forced upon them. How can you love something you don't understand?

OT is important not just for historical context, OT is important for context of the exact magnitude and reason Christ sacrifices himself for mankind.

I agree.

the rest of your comment (fuck word limit)

We still have original sin and can still sin but Christ paid the ransom for everything. He died for everyone's sins.

This thread is in danger of falling to homosexuality
I'll help fight off

Ancient tribal whites practiced small scale socialism, but it just doesn't work on a larger, diverse, multicultural scale because not everyone wants to cooperate in that way and any attempt to make them cooperate makes the whole thing futile because the fruits aren't worth the trouble at that point.

back in the day, one winter your neighbor's family didn't have enough food, so you and your other neighbors helped them out. next winter, maybe you didn't have enough food, so they helped you out. It was all good and if someone accepted help but didn't offer help in return, then they got kicked out or worse. But you can't really enforce that, in groups of thousands or millions of people, like you can in groups of tens or maybe hundreds.

You can just stop believing in fairy tales.
Saying that all other forms of religion are wrong, but the one you cooked up in your head just happens to be right is incredibly ridiculous
It’s just blind obedience at that point

I mean, why did Yahweh think it would be okay if Adam and Eve didn’t know the difference between good and evil?

not quite what I meant, but I see your point

how do vampires know which targets were sucked?

well duh bitemarks

which fade quicker than your body would need to recover from a blood "donation"
wouldn't these scenarios cause problems for vampires if they accidentally drained someone too often and killed as a result

Are there creation myth delities though? I'm thinking about fear and hunger's old new god dichotomy but this sounds like "actual" gods don't even exist.

No.
As powerful as True Faith is, Antedilubois are meant to be basically a story teller tool to end the campaign. I mean, last time we saw one of those they needed 3 gigavampires to hurt him and then a magic nuke to finish him off.
Wasnt bad though, I just wish they nuked the entirety of India instead.

you can when the state is full of low iq third world mutt retarded absolutists who will never think ot give any leeway in any situation ever and think in binary and will fuckign destroy you sfor doing something illegal that makes a lot of sense and makes life easier for everyone

these sociopathic retarded mutts need to be culled, you cant reason with apes

maybe, but they usually live in very densely populated areas where there are thousands or millions of humans per vampire, so it would be unlikely to happen by chance.

everything is deliberately shit in the WoD because God is teaching Caine a lesson

only in Vampire lore, in Werewolf its basically cosmic mofo got insane, in Changeling its "we all gay as fuck nigger why would anyone play this garbage" and in Mage its "I honestly dont know if the Technocracy are the bad guys"

We had separation of church and state for a reason. About half of America thinks religion shouldn’t play any role in lawmaking

can you fuck a Garou woman and survive the process / not getting murdered by the clan?

personally, I think Vampires have always been a visceral representation of the so-called "homosexual underground"

I once spoke with a homosexual who told me that he wished he lived in times where homosexuality was not only illegal, but strongly punished, in times where that underground homosexual network was alive and flourishing, because it would have made the whole thing so much more exciting and interesting. he said that being gay today is boring because nobody really gives a fuck about it anymore

Yes.
In fact, Garou NEED to mate with people outside the clan so that the genepool doesnt get completely fucked, although its hard because living with Garou is fucking garbage and most times they'll just end up getting normie babies when they need trueborn Garou.
It hard to be a werewolf.
Also, you cannot have sex when in Crinos form as your genitalia basically retracts into your body to prevent enemies targetting it, no, its not a joke, its on the fucking manual
furries can yiff in hell, I hate each and every single one of them, they ruin my favourite game

our current predicament and afflictions are because we have knowledge of good and evil, as well as suffering from sin. The original intent for humans was to never know the two because we would just exist as sinless beings and we would be perfect. We would just be "good" but not know we are. God would do all the heavy lifting and provide for humans. Adam and Eve didn't even know they were naked until after eating the fruit! They just thought completely different before the fall. It would be like explaining color to a blind person. Not fathomable and you're not able to put it into words.

this isnt an inaccurate representation, a ton of vampire stereotypes in VTM are basically fag tropes

he wished he lived in times where homosexuality was not only illegal, but strongly punished

retarded. mentally ill and a liar, yes, thats a fag, he could be living his dream in Saudi Arabia