There really needs to be an MMO renaissance...

Absolutely nailed it. The magic of old MMOs wasn't just the mechanics—it was the immersion and the necessity of human interaction that made the world feel alive. Now everything is so streamlined and disconnected it’s just another grindfest with glorified matchmaking services. You don’t make friends in MMOs anymore, you form temporary task squads. And yeah, voice chat turned everyone into Ricky from Trailer Park Boys instead of a mysterious rogue from the Dark Forest. Unless someone finds a way to enforce slow-paced, in-world communication again, the spirit's dead.

Just fucking hire gms to do the actual gm work, make events, play as bosses, entertain and steer playerbase making the world itself feeling alive, instead of them being exclusively glorified jannies.

gms play as the gods of the games lore

would be cool

i liked lord of the rings online but i hated the cash shop and its full of russians because its free

SSG are hellbent on killing it in last few years too as they got cozy with discord raidtroons and kowtow to every their want since.

But I ain't paying for no goddamned subscription.

There are F2P MMORPGs and B2P, and no subscription to pay. Good or bad is another story, but there are no-subs options for MMOs.

Playing the Anon Babble ragnarok server really has been great. No discord chats and voice stuff. You really get into it with just having a chat box, sometimes a little too deep into it...

im a zoomer and we dont want it boring lmao

We need an MMO renaissance yes but that renaissance is not classic wow. Quest leveling was literally the beginning of the end and what turned mmos into cinematic movies.

Subscriptions are the only way a good mmo can exist.

What do you propose as the next big thing for leveling then, outside of no leveling that is.

It's not in fact something interesting wow did was elite mobs involved in quests or dungeons quests so it can fit perfectly.
What kills wow is dungeon finder and anything that kills the "talk to people in order"
also empty open killed is killed because you can just do dungeons all day ,limit this to 5 or 10 per day ,add more content into the open world etc
anyway there's many mmo enjoyers and they ask for different things that attack the core design/gameplay of the game that it's hard to satisfy everyones.
Wow get a golden age because there was nothing equivalent in the market and the population was there.

How old mmos (aka not fucking wow in any form) handled leveling. People grouped up in a camp and killed shit for a few hours. People grouped up to do big quests or missions. There was no flying. Gear isn’t given to you for free. The game has an economy and you rely on it.

Dungeon finder is indeed a huge issue yes, but elite quests aren’t a cure to the insipid poison that was quest leveling. You could do most of the leveling in wow on your own.
Another issue is dungeons that are straight fucking lines and instanced “cinematic” experiences.
I miss when mmos weren’t instanced at all.

you would need to release one without all the censorship all online games got today
and without all the "no fun allowed" motto crap too

Doing anything, literally anything, with other people. Give people passive xp for chatting in town for all I care - anything other than isolationist questlineshit.

Levelling in mmos is dogshit now because any time you could group up to do something everyone's time is better spent doing quests on their instead. It's the number one reason the social aspect of the games is over. Everyone shits on collect boar tusk quests but those combined with boars being hard to solo breaking the ice on grouping up is what lets the social part of mmos come together.

the more people in a group . the more exp you get,the more drops you get

I wonder who would take a job to be a terminally online MMO player with the power to ban others

Aman'Thul says: TRANS RIGHTS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS

hard to solo

You mean impossible to solo

No they don't. They were a fun experiment of the noughties but they're pretty much total dogshit in every way compared to single and regular multiplayer games. Unless someone can make one that doesn't have to compromise on gameplay massively then they should just fuck off and die.

the more people in a group . the more exp you get,the more drops you get
no player limit to any content

Will never fly for commercial success (check pantheon and monsters and memories for recent examples), you are not forcing people grind their eyes out on the same spot for hours, besides it will turn into botting/multiboxing central within a month if not less.

Not if its moderated.
If its not a commercial success then tell me why nobody likes modern mmos except dress room faggots?
There is a market for it, the problem is nobody is making an MMO that actually looks good.

Your very first point is already wrong. Not reading the rest.

He is not wrong. The average mmo player did not use teamspeak or ventrilo. It was not common to converse with people through voice chat outside of hardcore groups that took the mmo endgame very seriously. The average mmo player was not a hardcore raidfag. WoW during its classic days is also not a classic mmo.

I’d be on board with “quest leveling” if it wasn’t the streamlined “do all of the quests in this area to be at the level of the next. Leveling should not be effortless and it should require other people. Having repeatable quests that you do with other people to level would not be too different to PSOs approach to leveling which I would be fine with as long as the quest variety is good and takes you to different places in the area or offers a variety of rewards like crafting materials that could also be used to progress your crafting. Not really okay with the whole “you get 10 levels in 1 hour” approach tho. You get no time to experiment with abilities you learn or get immersed yourself with the world, its just another rush to endgame.
While we’re at it. Never do something as streamlined as FFXIVs combat again, that is the truest cancer in all of this. Cooldown combat is fine, but not when resource management is streamlined and theres only one way to play a class, fuck even the single player rpgs that gave cooldown combat knew this such as xenoblade

If you want to nitpick it, it could be adjusted to

before voice chat and services like Discord became normalised

or some wording like that. Yeah, there were chat services out of game, they existed, so did chat rooms, and so did ventrilo and whatever else but it wasn't so normal that developers just expect players to be on the other service instead of their own game.

I could be nitpicky too and mention that MUDs were the first MMOs and they definitely came out before consumer-friendly voice chat services.

MMO's were better when people wasn't in voice chat!

pff these days people in voice chat all sound dumb and with lisps

?????

It's unironically datamining that is killing the genre. There's no more sense of wonder when everything is neatly compiled into an out-of-game database.

Just don't use it then!

Others will, and they will impact your experience with the knowledge.

I don’t need to datamine to follow a quest marker.

I think MMOs can be solved in two ways
1) Expand on the Phantasy Star Online and Spiral Knights formula, where it's really just an ARPG but people call it an MMO for some reason
2) Focus on bringing the experience of exploring a world with a group of friends on a much smaller scale. Frankly, I'm shocked that, with the amount of shitty multiplayer survival sandboxes that are out there that already have great loops for exploration, gearing, delving, bossing, etc. hasn't instead just focused entirely on the adventure and introduced a more structured series of quest lines to actually flesh out the world.

WoW always had a database everyone looked up(Thottbot). It's funny how WoWfags have nostalgia for something that never existed.
And there's tons of MMORPG's with shit that can't be datamined, gear in Black Desert Online for example were hidden and it took people years and years to kind of find out the numbers being doing autistic testings.

anyone plays turtle? i was thinking of trying it out

The point isn't voice chat specifically, its extraneous services/apps and in-game tools that substitute the need to interact in-game.

All of these tools come with their own baggage that have an effect on the game experience, be it because immersion is broken or an out-of-game culture is introduced by some huge discord server or because socialising is suspended altogether through something like a group-finder.

You don’t make friends in MMOs anymore, you form temporary task squads.

It is
ENTIRELY
your own fault if you don't add people and make them your friends from those temporary task squads

WoW did, but games before it did not, or at the very least not to such an extensive extent.

The point is, however, that these days content is datamined months in advance and players know about things that are not even in the game yet. How fucked up is that?

people first played MMORPG's(WoW) as a kid or young teenager

most other players were kids or young teenagers

those players were annoying and obnoxious and older players wanted nothing to do with them

those kids are today in their 30's and have nostalgia and don't think MMORPG's are as "social" anymore

Everquest had Allakhazam since god knows when.

I wonder if there's a dev with big enough balls to have mostly unmoderated chat, but links to discords et al get you muted and eventually banned for repeat offenses.

Just started playing it myself a couple weeks ago.
Was having a massive wow itch and it's been scratching it quite well.
Devs and GMs are active. I have yet to see a single bot or RMT activity at all. New zones and dungeons are scattered throughout different level ranges, rather than just all being end-game oriented, Quests in both the new zones and those added to existing zones feel very in-line with classic design. They have more content roadmapped out and they don't seem to be slowing down anytime soon.
Class changes are pretty well-received across the board, minus a few outliers. They did a pretty great job at adjusting talents, spells, and adding in new abilities that don't feel like just planting in things from 6 expansions in the future that don't mesh with original vanilla's design. You can pretty much play whatever class/spec you want and do well.
Only real downside is that the devs don't really put as much time and effort into pvp balancing. But if your goal is to be uber-sweaty honor grinder extraordinaire, you'll just play the meta anyways.
If you're looking for a great classic experience, I highly recommend you give it a try.

Questlines the way you describe them are exactly what killed mmos.
See FFXIV. An mmo game people play to watch a movie of cutscenes instead of actually get immersed in a world.
Questlines and deep story is fine if it doesn’t get in the way of the actual mmo part. The game shouldn’t just be doing a series of quests solo until the end and to be frank I wouldn’t recommend it either as a group setting because it just sterilizes the gameplay loop. You stop actually exploring and simply look for quest markers.

Unless someone finds a way to enforce slow-paced, in-world communication again, the spirit's dead.

Simply make MMOs how they used to be made.

Its one of the few highlights that XIV has going for it. Literally 0 datamining. All the info you get comes from live letters and previews, and then people scramble to gather all the information once the content actually comes out.

XIV doesn’t have anything to hide anyway. You know what the content is going to be like before its out. You know the new class is gonna play similar to an existing one. You know the new content is just gonna be following quest markers until you reach the endgame and get your free main stat stick gear upgrade. You know field ops are just gonna be a variation of Eureka. You know they will sterilize the game further and probably delete mp in the next expansion.

I didn't describe the questlines at all, numbnuts. I just said "structured series of quest lines." Don't talk to me if you're just gonna talk AT me, rambling about the chip on your shoulder unsolicited.

I really feel sorry for how much bitterness you hold inside you, anon. I hope things get better.

Not an argument

Okay lets actually talk about it then.
What does “structured series of questlines” mean. You aren’t really saying anything with that. It could mean a complicated series of quests without quest markers that doesn’t give you exp, it could be FFXIVs follow the questmarker to level 100 gameplay, it could be something in between, it could be something else entirely.
Specify please?

There won't be an MMO renaissance.
The target audience at the time (millennials) are at least in their mid-30s.
We plaid it because we were at school/university and had a lot more free time.
Now we don't because working/living conditions have greatly deteriorated, and things are even worse for zoomers.
Nobody wants to work outside of work, which, in retrospect, was the essence of most MMOs, Guild Wars and a few others being the exception.

I thought the class changes were actually rpetty shit. They really should've just used TBCs trees and gave everyone 10 extra points

I hate the people that play FFXIV and can’t come up with a single counterargument to all the criticism it receives but I wouldn’t say I am bitter about it. Perhaps I was bitter at a time when I was expecting it to be something good only to see Yoshida slowly chip away at it making it worse and worse each time and players saying that its valid for class mechanics to be “trimmed”. But I have honestly gotten over that and I don’t play the game anymore. I will make fun of anyone saying shadowbringers was a good expansion though, that was basically the expansion that killed the game and the only argument people have against that is “the story is good is amazing emetselch is the best villain ever”.

That there would be quests
Yeah?
And they put them in a questline.
That's about it. That's the basic requirement.

A lot of games that edge anywhere close to the aspired formula only feature basic radiant quests that are meant to be infinitely replayable as a generic short term goal but then don't do much to actually flesh out or characterize the world and its regions. I just want some questlines. The bar is very low. The desire is stated vaguely because nobody approaches even the basics, numbnuts.

As far as actually talking about any further desires, no I don't feel like it. You've displeased me and I don't like you.

group-finder throws together 5 completely silent randos

at most maybe a 'hey' of a greeting but normally nothing until the gg at the end, if that

Everyone immediately drops the group like it was a huge inconvenience, once its over

we're supposed to want to add these passing strangers to a contact list

They're strangers at the start and are essentially still strangers at the end. You're meant to just queu up another dungeon and grind out whatever weekly or quest or whatever you're after with the next batch of random strangers who'll behave the same way because the group-finder tool encourages no one to put in any social effort.

But I ain't paying for no goddamned subscription.

So you want a massive world with tons of content and other community stuff but you won't pay for the server and dev up keep? Yeah MMO's are done.

Based you got it.
Part of the immersion was actually doing things. If I click a button and teleport to a pre-made party that I've never played with before, it's just like any other online game.

All the total warhammer games are too fast, like 5 minute battles with 5k troops.
I've had to stack several difficulty mods just to slow it down to an acceptable 20ish minutes. Now some units are totally broken lol.

I've been modding skyrim the past 2 pr so years and I've noticed a lot of the mods I've installed ie, removing compass, removing player position on map, and getting getting rid of way points, has really slowed the game down. Now I can spend a few days irl on a quest, between traveling, finding it, talking to AI npcs, it's way more enjoyable than just running to a point on a map, to a guy with a floating marker on him

Well it certainly inspires a fear of God I suppose

the reason most people play these games is because they like killing monsters, getting upgrades and seeing the numbers go up. MMOs like wow are basically a more involved version of cookie clicker

You aren’t really answering my question. I already said, in the post you snapped at, that a series of quests with a fleshed out story are fine if they actually don’t get in the way of the mmo part. However, a fleshed out “immersive” storyline does not do anything for the mmorpg part of the game (which is what I assume the average mmo player mostly wants) it is just added flavor.
I am asking how you would integrate those quests into the actual gameplay loop.

As far as actually talking about any further desires, no I don't feel like it. You've displeased me and I don't like you.

I wasn’t even rude and you just reply with passive aggression. Thats fine by me I do not want to talk to an npc.

I keep hearing of AI NPC mods for Skyrim, is it on the Nexus? Does it have to get hooked into an online service or can it be run local?

There is no social connection because people just look up shit on guides and look up meta builds.

we're supposed to want to add these passing strangers to a contact list

Yes, dumbass. That's how you make friends. You're playing the game, you did well together, you keep things going, you build up a rapport, these are the fucking basics of meeting new people. I mean, listen to yourself you fucking retard: YOU are the one saying that YOU don't want to put in the social effort, that YOU don't want to keep things going with strangers as new people. That if you don't have that instant connection, you're gonna roll the dice on a new squad in the group finder. It's people like YOU that are the problem.

It's a video game and a friends list. You're not sending him your home address so you can guzzle his cock, no matter how much a faggot like yourself probably actually wants that.

You aren't really answering my question

And I told you, that's the point.

I am asking how you would integrate those quests into the actual gameplay loops

And I told you, you've displeased me to where I don't want to discuss such a matter with you

I wasn't even rude and you just reply with passive aggression

You were rude, and I'm replying with active aggression. You can't call it passive when I'm actively insulting you to your face and saying that I don't like you, numbnuts.

I see a lot of

dungeon finder le bad

but its removal will only make people spam

LFG ZFK

in the world chat

you still have to walk to the dungeon though without RDF. Dungeon finder is also why they made the regular heroics in wrath so braindead in the first place

You didn’t say anything. You were passive aggressive. There is not a single insult on your post unless you call being “displeased” an insult.
I will insult you though, you are a retard and a coward. You never intended to have an actual discussion or you ran away from it once you realized you couldn’t argue anything because you had no point.

The internet and people has changed too much the good times are never coming back.

WOW was never good
You just played it at the right time in your life

There is not a single insult on your post unless you call being “displeased” an insult

I called you numbnuts in every reply, numbnuts. What, is that your name, numbnuts? Was I referring to you by your proper handle?

Play gw2. It solves all the issues and complaints you could have. No sub you buy the game outright. Super active community there's dozens of discords for all forms of content. Constant large scale open world meta events for other social interactions. The only gripe is they generally are too positive to the point that it loops around to being toxic positivity alot of the community is overly sensitive but you can find your people by looking around. Next sale is probably in summer you could get all xpacs for like 120$ I'd recommend checking Roze's series on it for a wow players perspective but he's not a total faggot

You don't really need either extreme. When I played WoW the last time a few years ago they still had a working LFG tool for mythic+ shit. It was a decent middle ground because it took a bit for a group to form up and the time spent looking for others naturally created some sort of social interactions. You might also remember people's names and be more inclined to group up with them in the future.
If you queue up and the game matches you with a bunch of niggas you won't even bother remembering their names for more than 5 minutes because the game will just assign you new niggas whenever you queue up for another dungeon. They might as well be robo-niggas.

Try an actual insult instead of pretending to be respectful.

It would end up being spammed by gold sellers, people trading CP and other garbage. Every attempt at completely moderated chat rooms just ends up driving away everyone who isn't a bad actor.

I get more human interactions in an hour of counter strike than in a week of doing m+ and raids in wow

Its not the gruff dwarven warrior you're talking to, its a pot-head yelling at his dog over mic

i havent played an MMO in years and this was the main reason, people got mad at me when i refused to give them my discord or other character names to add

i dont want to be your friend, i want to add your character to my characters friend list so we can group up for content later not so we can shit post in discord and minmax class comps for dungeons

MMORPGs should make a comeback

uh no thx, other MMORPGs suck because they are not 200X WoW

private server based around the original game, working to create, improve and build further content around it's class design and structure

"oh they should just use the talents from TBC instead"

It's really impressive that you learned to write without ever using your brain.

This we need single player mmos with AI players

Increasing amount of indian and chinese people with no regard for the social fabric are now online and will immediately make any new online experience that is not heavily-gatekept a miserable one.

this but unironically
banilla wowo wawa is the only mmo i've ever really enjoyed

i dont want to do quests they are boring and mindless

I want to mindlessly grind mobs in a party

Can you rearrange your 1-5 skills yet, that shit annoyed the absolute shit out of me at launch

Nothing hits like starting as a level 1 in Northshire Abbey
If you have an mmo itch, try Anniversary realms. They're packed, and GDKPs are not allowed

This is why Guild Wars is still fun.

Make content for different group sizes from solo to raid party. Scheduled events. Various difficulty levels.
Zero vertical progression. No gear progression. No hamster wheel. Let players decide what content is fun and worth their time.
It won't happen because creating hallways dungeons and slapping a level requirement on it is so much easier to develope and MMO players are somehow okay with it.

We are never going back with all the bot farms and third worlders treating online games as jobs.

it's not happening, the internet and the whole world are very different now compared to 20 years ago
there would need to be some big tech breakthrough to bring MMOs back

No and why would you want to anyway just rebind them, community uses them as orientation when talking aboit skills sword 3 dagger5 staff 2 etc you'd just be gimping yourself

Just rebind them

OK, can you rebind them on a per-weapon combo basis yet? Basically I just wanted the freedom to set up both my bars in a way that makes sense for me and not just for the dev. This wasn't really possible in the past where the bindings were just the same for both bars. And that might get a bit annoying if you tend to swap weapons but I guess you don't really do that as much anyway.

Gw2 already does this it's had no vertical progression since the start all gear maxes at level 80 and will stay at max stats forever. Idk how you niggers have never heard of this. It also meets the criteria you listed. Thousands of hours of solo content, 5man, 10man pve meta events 50-150man pve, 50man squad pvp in a large open world map game style conquest where you are 1 pawn in a zerg of hundreds. 5man instanced pvp where individual skill shines above all. If you want genuinely 0 progression and leveling try Rabbit and Steel, there's a thread on VM and also a discord for the game you can throw a lobby together in minutes and get raiding

gw2

dei tranny slop

Yeah you'd have to seriously vet people to do that. 20 years ago you could but even then you'd get a sizeable portion of power trippers. Anyone who's been on old forums or dedicated servers is well acquainted with asshole admins.

Per weapon no I can't see a world wherw you would wamt 5 hotkeys for a weapon set then you hit your weapon swap button and it's 5 new hotkeys, that sounds confusing desu what kind of system would you even be running for the skills? Is this a dota 1 situation or what?

I just want two fully customizable hotbars, that's all, unfortunately I'm only getting this customization for everything past the 5th skill

MMORPGs were a product of its time when the internet felt like a magical place where you could connect with people from the whole world.

If you want genuinely 0 progression and leveling try Rabbit and Steel

The average mmo player isn't ready for the realization that it mean their progress is now entirely skill-dependent, and that even easy mode is filtering them.

what changed?

indias, jews

Connecting with people from the whole world isn't good or fun anymore. People want online players in a world but most content should be single player, like Runescape

No other type of a game out there has that social connection element as MMOs have.

vrchat (or literally any game now because of discord communities)
don't you pretend like people in wow/classic nowadays are walking around talking to random people constantly, you're full of shit
you can socialize at any time you just don't want to

Wow classic isnt an old mmo
Try a ffxi private server that isnt catseye

isn't that just people being more social because the community is small
i'm saying any new mmo is going to be the exact same as mmos are right now

People want online players in a world but most content should be single player,

i dont
thats just cod or any other low player count multiplayer game

no
no it doesn't
just make class based coop games, they scratch the same exact itch
don't tell me you losers actually enjoy the levelling

Wow classic uses a quest based progression system, grouping up existed because some people preferred skipping all the quests but the easiest way to grind to max was just following the questlines

Ffxi is closer to what everquest was, you farmed mobs for exp in a group, etc

When its said 'connect with people from the whole world' what is meant is people want to connect with other people from civilised, first world countries like the ones in western europe, scandinavia or the ones in north america (and sometimes Australia).

all this cope

the reason why the genre is stagnant is because nothing came even close to WoW in 21 years, including retail wow. Blizzard total brain drain is a massive tragedy to culture

why don't you guys just stay in vg? I ask sincerely since this is a non-thread with non-replies and non-questions clearly purely made to pretend the game is relevant(which it isn't).

this is probably the most on topic Anon Babble thread right now lmao

This, i log in, do my keys and log off.
I was never a fan of leveling or any other part of WoW anyways, always did the endgame shit.
Gotta say having an MMO or RPG type game with characters controlled by AI would be interesting.

like follower dungeons or brann in delves?

the closest we could have gotten is star wars
and that was fucked
i say that only because its a known franchise

I never ran them as i do "higher" ish m+ keys, so those followers won't work there.
I was talking about AI companions you can hold a conversation with, with an actual chatgpt tier AI behind them, that would be interesting and also dangerous to lonely and mentally unstable people, fuckers have anhero'd themselves because of AI girlfriends already.

I still don't understand the purpose of leveling characters in MMOs. Why is that still a thing? Why can't I play whatever class I want?

they teased at being able to use our warbands like that

MMOs were a mistake and RTS fans are responsible.

WoW and other mmos have a lot of archaic mechanics these dumb devs and players refuse to let go.
leveling and gearing is two of them.
People still want to gatekeep gear in current year WoW, it's insane.

Yea but it's a pvp centric game tho kinda ruins it

You can, leveling is playing the class of your choosing.
If your question is why you have to level it then the better question is why you don’t go play an online action game with no progression elements? Leveling is an rpg element and mmos are rpgs.
You could just play wow or ffxiv and pay for a level skip those are mmos for people who don’t like mmos

Why can't I play whatever class I want?

you can.

for the same reason you level up in single player games

what the fuck do you even mean the internet is empty?

I mean, that would actually be pretty cool, if we could give each of our characters a small backstory and personality, then it's up to the AI to give them life.

If your question is why you have to level it then the better question is why you don’t go play an online action game with no progression elements?

Because Mythic+ and raiding is fun and there's nothing else like it. The MMO baggage brings down the genre.
Not without neededly levelling one.
I don't have to play HL2 to play L4D with friends.

No other type of a game out there has that social connection element as MMOs have

Socialising in mmos died with the widespread of discord people no longer use mmos to go in and socialise but the opposite from your online circle to the mmo itself

No social games like late 90s early 2000s will exist again

This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. You want to literally live in a fantasy world talking to made up people until the day you die?

you dont level up in HL2 fucking retard

What the fuck are you talking about nigger. PvP and WvW can be ignored entirely I have friends who won't touch either. The only time you "have" to do either is gift of battle for certain legendaries but you can also just make pve only legendary armor and buy leggy weapons from grinding gold

well it's not needessly, you earn talent points

You are already playing wow, literally why are you complaining? Not only can you pay for level skips in wow the leveling “baggage” is almost nonexistent.

rest of the post

So you’re just pretending to be retarded or maybe you are just a zoomer?

mythic+ is fun

how much of your dick have been cut?

If i could inject my mind into a fantasy world and get away from this planet i would.
100%

nta but what's wrong with m+?

No other type of a game out there has that social connection element as MMOs have

"Have" ? MMOs lost their social element over a decade ago, retard.

There is something you can do to achieve that already

Not in the way i want it to be.

Shitters don't like it because it takes your entire toolkit to run higher keys, faggots rather sit doing stupid "collect 15 pig anuses and kill 3 faggots" quests or sitting on a raid for 3 hours a night smashing their head against a retarded boss than than run the best content WoW ever offered, by a landslide.
M+ saved retail, and it saved it hard.

missing the point this bad

reading comprehension it's your strong suit.
Just give people all the talents at the start, duh.

You are already playing wow, literally why are you complaining? Not only can you pay for level skips in wow the leveling “baggage” is almost nonexistent.

Because I have never seen a valid argument to forcing people to play through a campaign or forcing them to level characters over and over again. Imagine having to play though HL2 every time you wanted to play a different L4D character (Assuming they did different things).
Levelling is completely dated and should just be removed, or at the very least there should be M+ only servers.

All the modern 'conveniances' of MMOs were put into play to facilitate a smoother game in the absence of communication and it continued on that trajectory while Discord made communication easier than ever. It's not even so much the social need aspect as it is the fact that they've stripped everything within mmos that necessitated teamwork in the first place.

The idea behind leveling is

rpg

lets you ease into the class

feeling of progression

The game isn’t supposed to just be the endgame, especially if we are talking about a fucking mmorpg. If you want to play a game like l4d then why aren’t you playing that instead?

i just can’t cope

Stop being retarded, or pretending to, its really pathetic

The game isn’t supposed to just be the endgame, especially if we are talking about a fucking mmorpg.

There are many M+ don't care about the MMO side of WoW. At all. People only play M+. It's a fun coop game. The MMO baggage of forcing people to play through HL2 over and over again for no gain (ESPECIALLY since they sell a skip) has absolutely no argument supporting it.

If you want to play a game like l4d then why aren’t you playing that instead?

Please, for the love of god, get a brain. I don't care about L4D. The point I'm making is that levelling or playing irrelevant content has zero value. It's just a big gate from playing other classes that is completely meaningless.

Just give people all the talents at the start, duh.

that's retarded

Not an argument. You being shit isn't my problem.

Anon, you are talking to default UI shitters that likely play on moonguard and never did anything passed a +3 and LFR in their lives.

ever heard of progression?

Levelling is completely dated

Agree to an extent, but giving all talents at the start is not the answer. Character growth is a huge aspect of RPGs but it's all too often done in a way that doesn't feel natural at all.

checked talent trees for hunter and survival seems like something new and original adjusted to classic wow, imma try that

This.

i dont care about l4d

ill keep using it as an example to refer to 1/4 of a game i play

Stop posting

i wanked off to this post

Leveling feels natural, you’re only saying this because your experience with leveling is FFXIV

wildstar was the last innovation in mmo gameplay and it got killed by some uppity fag

Leveling feels natural

No it doesn't. Killing a chicken or bringing some spastic NPC a loaf of bread for that last 1xp and suddenly becoming stronger isn't natural.

it's no less natural than killing a goblin for 1 xp

The greatest thing about WoW was the world design and how massive and immersive it felt. Nobody has even attempted to replicate this since. Every other aspect of WoW has been cloned and done to death, but for some reason the world design has always been ignored in every MMO that copied WoW.

It's actually more inconvenient to do that. Because at any time I'm exactly ready, I can hit "find dungeon" and pop into a group. Whereas you'd need to coordinate with friends.

There won't be one until the VR becomes the main way people play games. The whole reason MMOs aren't like they were are because it's all been done now. People need a new paradigm in order to have that feeling of exploration again

been that way since 2004
crazy

wow has the most lifeless and boring world.

Its just the most common and effective way to signify progression in a videogame.
All games have this in some way, especially an rpg which are supposed to give you highly customizable characters.
Most multiplayer pvp games incorporate their rankings via an exp bar as well.
There is literally nothing wrong with using leveling as a progression tool, it becomes a problem when each level feels empty but that is a problem of the game dev not the leveling system.
Like I said before, if your only experience with leveling is a game like FFXIV then its no fucking wonder it feels like a dated mechanic to you because leveling adds absolutely nothing to that game. Thats why new jobs start leveled already and thats why they sell level skips

holy retard

I wouldn’t put it like that but it slowly became that way

M+ is all the progression you need. Character levels mean nothing and I haven't read a single argument why character levelling should be forced, especially since you can pay to skip.
You are actually brain damaged anon. I've heard about people like you who can't engage with hypotheticals. You're simply too retarded for this discussion.

learn your class
level up, gear up, do story/quests. level professions
get /spend talents so you don't get overwhelmed with 20 abilities from the getgo

You have not said a single valid argument this entire time, only compared a game to an entirely different type of game.
Its called false equivalence.

No matter what MMO you create, it's gonna get taken over by sweats and minmaxxers who will yell at you for having fun.

learn your class

You learn your class playing relevant content, like normals / heroics / or low level keys. Non-shit players should be able to play whatever content they're comfortable with.

level up, gear up, do story/quests. level professions

None of these matter for M+ gameplay.

get /spend talents so you don't get overwhelmed with 20 abilities from the getgo

You being shit isn't my problem. I never said remove the campaign, retards can play the campaign if they want.
I have, you're literally too fucking retarded to engage with the hypothetical.
The point being made:

Forcing people to level a character before they can play M+ with their friends is like forcing people to play HL2 before they can play L4D.

Your response:

Then why don't you go play L4D

Bury a knife in your throat you fucking cretin.

None of these matter for M+ gameplay.

m+ is not everything. there's tons of people out there that don't even touch it

I miss WoW PvP

It is to some people you fucking moron, that's why I'm saying it should be its seperate mode without the MMO baggage.

how about no. there's minimal shit you have to do now to reach m+. leveling is easy, and there are no chores to keep up with like anima or azerite

how about no.

oh well, wow. I hadn't considered that.
If none of it matters, then why have the MMO baggage in the first place? Just let people immediately play M+ with their friends from the get go.

with all these xp boosts, and the warbound xp boost it's really a non issue

If it adds no value, and its a non-issue, then make it completely optional. I'm glad you agree with me.

i didn't say that it doesn't add value
but it's a non issue