Why is he hated?

Why is he hated?

can instantly delete almost any player at any range

bad game design, simple as

i-it's le difficult!!

Cope and crutch for bad game design. He should have the huntsman as his only primary weapon, a much more honest and strategic weapon.

Dude just move into cover faggot.

newage gamers are weak willed pussies

skill issue

Because nobody plays spy correctly

b-but he was the knife shiel-

So headshot him with the ambassador instead of going for a backstab
Low iq pubs could never tho

if you're not causing chaos at the back of the frontline as a spy then you're shit, harassing snipers is the most baby shit for retards

The punishment every other class gets for fucking up is a respawn. His punishment is he misses a kill. Unless he fights another sniper. That's it. He's out of the danger zone, and that's what obnoxious about him

I have dick in my hand as we speak
Just wanted you to know that

badly designed maps with wide open sightlines

step two nanoangstroms into his massive zone of control

get instantly domed

RESPECT HIS SIGHTLINES CHUD

Yeah instead veteran gamers had 8k hours in every other fps with a sniper rifle or quake which had the railgun

*rips your dick off*
*throws it out of the window*
*calls an ambulance so you can get it reattached because I don't want an anon to be dickless*

Ah yes let's develop a long range class in a game that is focused on close range, I'm sure nobody will hate it

If the sniper can see you, you can see him, the maps aren't battlefield maps like the other anon said. Unless the sniper is shooting through a pixel crack or someshit just use your eyes.

Outside of comp can't you simply turn invulnerable at will and fuck him up at close range? Why are you crying?

Half the classes have hard sniper counters. Scout can flank and has an invincibility item to get into close range. Soldier can rocket jump to him and can only be stopped with skillshots which 99% of snipers fail, and can also just shoot rockets at him to zone him out. Demoman can sticky jump. Heavy can survive a headshot. Engineer can use the wrangler to sniper battle a sniper, while using the sentry bubble as cover. Medic can uber to push up. Spy hard counters sniper.
He's good, but like literally just git gud. You're only at risk from a sniper as a soldier/pyro/demoman/heavy/medic. Almost all the classes have situational counters to snipers, or can just flat out win in a 1v1 if you outskill them.

All maps have backdoor access out of the lines of sight, too. Name five maps that dont have alternative routes avoiding the common sniping points (protip: you cant even name one).

sniper is a nigga with a long range gun in a game where everyone else has a shotgun

He's supposed to be a kind of glass cannon that gets shit on as eaisly as he can shit on other players, but they kept giving him unlocks that just remove his counters with no real downside other than they can't all be used at once.
Also the community's become obsessed with Payload, which requires long straight lines players are forced to go though, and that's where Sniper can just kill people with basically no risk involved on his part.

Like Sniper is a badly designed class, but if all you play is Badwater, Upward, Snowycoast and Boringo then you don't really have the right to complain.

a bunch of fuckers like star_ were uploading videos of them sniping the fuck out of people even back then. pubs also had a bunch of good snipers showing up consistently, people only started shitting and crying recently because youtubers started doing so.

badly designed maps with wide open sightlines

it should not surprise you that valve nor the tf2 community actually care.

Except you will never be focusing on just killing the Sniper because that's retarded, you will be having fun doing your own thing fighting the enemy team and out of nowhere the Sniper surprises kills you

Skill issue. Improve your situational awareness. If you only have eyes on two enemies why are you not considering what the rest of their team is doing?

yeah just like how other people show up outta nowhere behind a corner and kill you too you fucking idiot, that's the entire game

sniper kills you

now you are aware of him

then you kill him

and avoid him from now

He's not a comp mainstay because there are only 12 players in the fucking game and they all move fast while sniper doesn't
Do you not see how he becomes a problem when you double that and get classes that barricade and control the field and slow the game down like engineer, heavy and pyro involved?
It becomes a fucking perfect sniper field because of how much natural protection he gets

Meet [VALVE]Niggerkiller.

Not too useful after Jungle Inferno.
Now that I think about it l, a lot of unlocks that were good at countering Sniper were nerfed to shit, that's why he feels so powerful.

you will be having fun doing your own thing fighting the enemy team and out of nowhere the Sniper surprises kills you

that's every class, loser, not just sniper

If Sniper isn't a poorly designed class in TEAM Fortress 2, then why does every defence of the class depend on 1v1 game theory?

In a game where each team can pick identical picks there's no such thing as "unbalanced" except on maps with assymetrical designs. Why not just pick sniper and win the sniper battle?
A sniper dominating your team is a failure on both you and your teammates to respond to him properly. It's not like the other team can ban you from picking sniper too.

Half of those "counters" are

Yeah just run past and ignore the entire team and twenty sentries before he one shots you bro

And some aren't even counters

Heavy can survive a headshot

HOW IS THAT A FUCKING COUNTER??? Sniper mains seriously consider not being able to one shot you as unfair.

why can't you just git gud?

how is sniper OP when engie can just wrangler rocket jump over to him and shotgun him down?

how is sniper OP when heavy can just tank one headshot and then walk to him and kill him?

Crazy how you don't address the soldier's ability to deny the sniper's firing position

sniper is only as OP as the map makers allow him to be. you cannot debate this

I WANT TO PLAY MY HECKIN MAIN WITH MY HECKIN GOOFY LOADOUT AND PLAY MY LE FUN STRATEGIES BUT THE ENEMY SNIPER IS OPPREsinG mEE

Comp is bullshit because they play 6v6 with meme classes only.
Highlander is literally entirely about which team has the better sniper.

Honestly all the complaints would go away if the game was reverted to the state it was in before meet your match.

Ambassador

Sandman

2 weapons that are straight up counters to sniper and are massively useful everywhere else too. I'm still so baffled valve never reverted the MyM changes, they are actually fucking retarded, they'd rather see their game sink in popularity than admit they fucked up. An entire company of genuine manchildren.

If you're playing the game properly you have a medic on your heavy, and your medic is hiding behind the heavy's fuckhuge hitbox. A heavy shouldn't be dying to a sniper because heavies are supposed to push with and be supported by their team. If you're soloing a sniper's field of view you deserve the respawn.

By the time he gets a second shot you're basically healed to full, and your team should be reacting. If hes focusing your medic, then he needs 3 shots minimum to take you out, probably more. Literally just get good. Hes such a glass canon and thats more than enough time to respond. I have 5 hours in sniper over 15 years of tf2 but I still wrote that post how hes not broken.

Deny the sniper's firing position

By shooting one of the slowest most telegraphed projectiles in the game that will do 30 splash

You've never been reality check quickscoped and it shows

It's very rare to actually come across a sniper that shuts down a team. Most snipers are 2 hour playtime Russian retards picking the class that plays most like Call of Duty

snipers only real protection is the positioning the sniper player takes himself and the antistab thing nothing you typed to me is a problem because at any moment you can become sniper and kill the sniper you have a issue with which again is a skill issue i can understand what you are trying to say to me but ive been playing fps for so long that your concerns are pointless to me
nobody cares about highlander

Always thought it was weird how many items in this game are like specifically geared towards fucking over spies and pyros exclusively.
They should have added similar items to fuck over snipers too like a heavy secondary helmet that lets him ignore a single headshot

If you're walking as a soldier you're playing him wrong. If you get quickshotted in the air you genuinely just got outplayed by a better player and need to counter with teamwork, counter picks, and map awareness.

sniper isn't broken because... you can kill him if he's playing 1 v 12!!!

What does that even mean? You mean that the soldier is able to shoot at you? Yeah join the club it's an fps he does that to every class

DUDE IT'S NOT OP BC ONE CLASS CAN FIGHT BACK! IT'S NOT FAIR HE SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO SHOOT ME!

Unreal

I play with Sydney Sleeper because it causes other snipers to seethe, ranged piss shots is funny, and sometimes (when it's not buggy) I extinguish teammates.
Alternatively, I'm fucking around with the Classic because no one expects anyone to use it.

nobody cares about highlander

noone cares about comp in general

I cant think of a single TF2 map that demands a straight line approach to the enemy. Even cart maps have backdoors. You dont have to run towards the sniper, geniuses. Flanking wins you games.

If Sniper isn't broken then why botters picked him to ruin this game with spinbots and not Soldier or Demo?

What world are you living in where heavy can live out in the open where he's taking all the spam and getting quickscoped
Heavy fucking loses that long range sniper DPS race even when he's getting 150 hp arrows constantly and in the real world the healing is lower and damage is higher

counter picks

Name 1 (ONE) counter to sniper in 2025

Oh so now it's gone from

heavy counters sniper

To

heavy + medic + concentrated effort of entire team counters one singular sniper

Yeah but don't worry tho it's not op, just get your entire team to focus one guy

Medic

Better Sniper

His real protection is the fucking sentry which lets him be anywhere within its sightline with impunity and the team of pyros that will air blast your 0 iq spam

aiming hitscan is simpler than calculating trajectories so the botters could run more bots off each system dumbass

most payload maps have abhorrent sightlines. everyone jizzes over pl_upward but literally point 1 there is a giga sightline from the platform all the way into spawn and no way to get around it without being seen.

press voice chat button

"focus sniper"

sniper gets focused and dies

ggez, its called TEAM fortress 2 btw

A world where your teammates arent fucking you. If your team is good they'll be getting killd while you and your medic are focused; if they get no kills, then yeah your team is bad and you fail the push, and probably deserve it.
A good medic knows to uber when you're low anyways, vastly improving survivability.
Snipers just dont 1v6 solo a team that isnt dogshit. It just doesnt happen.

I mean you're completely misquoting me i listed heavy as one of the five classes you have to worry about snipers on. Its just he is built to not instant die to sniper and can situationally win.
The close range classes typically lose against long range classes like sniper and engineer yeah.

it's just skill issue to be honest
people refuse to wait until a spy or scout can deal with him
they refuse to take the longer route to avoid the sightline
they don't consider that an enemy playing sniper is basically wasting a slot, they would be an even bigger problem on a real class

Good thing the sniper doesn't also have a team!

He is only hated because he is Australian

ye but for the scout to deal with him he has to slip past the entire team and past the level 3 sentry (only to get quickscoped anyway)

If your team is good

So you have to assume that the enemy team is full of shitters to make your schizotheories work
Sniper scales way harder with a competent team than any other class to the point where he can only die to countersnipes

Hacks magnet, it’s not even funny

HURR DURR WHY CAN'T HEAVY COUNTER SNIPER

Because the game has flank classes you fucking moron, it's a team game.

Demo sticky jumps to sniper and rapes him

Soldier rocket jumps to sniper and rapes him

Scout meatshots him

Spy shoves his knife up his asshole, if razorbacked just 3 quick shot from the revolver.

What is wrong with you motherfuckers, you logic is so fucking nonsensical I can't grasp it.

HURR DURR I CAN'T KILL SENTRIES ON MY OWN AS SCOUT ENGIE IS BROKEN

Sniper doesn't really work in TF2 anymore because Sniper is one of the few classes, if not the only one, that has such a high and theoretically infinite skill ceiling. Nearly everything that 'counters' a sniper like a spy or an uber push can in fact be reacted to if they are good enough. Overhealed heavies will die to a charged headshot unless they snack on a dolokohs, and even then if sniper has a machina then fuck 'em. The only thing that would consistently be able to counter them would be having an equally or even more skilled sniper on your own team.

The point isn't so much that it's not balanced (which it isn't, imo), it's more that with how old TF2 is and the kind of people who are still playing it, any time there IS a sniper the game is inevitably warped around them and becomes a completely different, arguably unfun game for anyone who isn't the sniper.

Basically, old ass game + infinite skill ceiling means turbosweats can kill the playerbase.

did you even read my post

chocolate bar doesn't let you get overhealed any more than usual

Sentries don't exist and dispenser users won't ever shoot you

You don't play the game

Whats the problem, then?

It's le theoretically infinite!!!

Meanwhile, in reality:

The issue with a lot of these arguments is that it assumes that every single interaction is happening in a vacuum. If you want to try and break things down into terms of points or 'value', then a good sniper far and away brings magnitudes more value to a team than even multiple people on the enemy team trying to counter him, to the point that he can cover for even mediocre versions of other classes by drawing more attention to himself or by being able to whittle them down to the point where the people trying to counter him are now getting mopped up by players who are worse than them because the sniper has plinked them to nothing if they aren't outright dead already. That, or it opens up holes in your team when people are trying to counter the sniper so that the rest of the enemy team can steamroll you.

its a team game yeah so why are you acting like the sniper is not behind his team and protected?
soldier rocket jumps and gets shot by 4 different people before he gets anywhere near the sniper
scout can't get close to him because there is a level 3 sentry blocking the way

I feel like you don't actually play the game

in that case i would just equip bonk and run past the sentry and stay alive as long as possible in order to harass the sniper as soon as he spawns. if other players show up to help him you're winning the numbers game.

DUDE IT'S A TEAM GAME

meanwhile all his schizo hypotheticals where sniper gets owned revolve around a fictional 1v1 that exists in a vacuum, completely separate from the rest of the team, and will never happen

What are you even saying

People play on garbage maps like harvest

your taste clearly if you're okay with the game being so centralised by a faggot that makes the main unplayable and squishes players through tight flanks

Yes, faggot.
Why do you think every single hacker in the modern day is a sniper now? All you need for sniper to go crazy is an aimbot and you don't really need to modify any of the other values besides making them able to click heads good. Why bother setting up speed or damage hacks on another class when sniper can already do all that without being as obvious to an observer?

Even without cheats, sure, you may not run into an epic god tier sniper every game but the moment you do you're going to fucking wish that you never even saw the class over a decade ago.

yeah well I would just stay alive as long as possible

That's a great plan bro can't believe I never thought of it

name 3 good maps

That you're so retarded that you need to assume the worst possible scenario with the least enemy team presence to make you able to take down the sniper when in reality sniper at any given time is the safest class in the game

Mostly because of these 3 things

bots

people getting truly good at sniper

valve being retarded and giving him an easy way out against the only class that could counter him aside from another fucking sniper.

there is nothing wrong with a sniper wiping a team without cheats you need to stop playing the game if you cannot handle this reality

I can't because I also play on harvest

It really is. You get past their sentry, you harrass the sniper, if people start to chase you you run away. Repeat. People are so fucking focused on kills that they don't know how to play the long game. If a sniper is an actual threat to your team you just waste his time and he's a no longer an issue.

Every single time there's a TF2 thread, there's some bozo who acts like every single sniper player in TF2 is omniscient and has psychic communication with the entirety of their team who play in perfect sync with each other so he is an unkillable one tapping machine. In Quick play of all places

it was truly this easy the entire time

sniper haters are retarded

yeah people who actually play TF2 and experience great sniper players taking over servers vs retards who haven't played TF2 in 10 years thinking everyone is still shit at the game

skill level has dropped off a cliff
nobody complained back in the day

Yeah 'cause the issue is that when a sniper is Genuinely Good it is the most insufferable unfun shit to ever play against in a game and it feels absolutely horrible; it is probably the closest an FPS player can feel to a first timer trying to play Fighting Games against someone who is competent.

You just get your shit stomped in and you know that THEORETICALLY there are counters but you lack the skill or knowledge to execute them well enough to actually matter.

and there's people like you who envision lobbies where everyone is playing on a steam deck except you therefore him being able to shit out a 150 in 0.2s from anywhere every 2 seconds is ok

I was never good at playing spy
Probably my third worst class behind sniper and scout

Sniper is too easy! He's shutting down my team!

NOOOOO I CANT SIMPLY SWAP TO SNIPER MYSELF!

your post is the absolute stupidest fucking "Sniper is OP" argument I've ever seen.

Assume you have a Sniper and a Demoman, both with perfect aim because you stupid niggers are obsessed with claiming Sniper is unbeatable, so let's make him unbeatable. Assuming the next 12 shots are all critical hits, and the enemy team is a healthy balance of classes, which class is going to decimate the enemy team faster?

There's a reason that low skill players claim Sniper to be the best class in the game, but when you ask high skill players the answer is usually

Medic

Demoman

Sniper is GOOD. Sniper is NOT broken. His pick rate is too slow, he's not mobile, he requires too much accuracy, his damage per second is pitiful. The class is not, and has never been broken. Adding more players actually makes the class worse not better. Stop walking into sightlines you stupid fucking nigger.

obviously, spy is the hardest class in the game

Stock Spy maybe. He has so many crutch shitter tools at his disposal

switch to the class with the most mind numbing gameplay in the game because a kovaak faggot on the other team gets a boner seeing his points go up

If a sniper is single handedly ruining your game it's because he's a better player than you, not because he's playing sniper. He would be an even bigger problem on strong classes like soldier or demo. I get that it's annoying to be oneshotted but that doesn't mean sniper is OP. Just get good.

He needs nerf like the bottom class in this list, but Valve abandon the game

I just start body shotting the other sniper with peepee, don't need to be better, don't need to kill him. Just need annoy him.... and hope there's no pocket med.

high skill players don't say that though

projectiles

perfect aim

first line and you're already assuming the enemy team is worse than you
while with sniper the onus on accuracy is entirely on the user
and you forgot the one critical flaw in your gay little argument that CLASSES THAT AREN'T SNIPER CAN ACTUALLY FUCKING DIE IN DUELS

The only change Sniper actually needs on a base level is to have the Classic's tracers applied to all rifles so palyers actually know when they are being attacked by a Sniper and can react accordingly.
Other than that it's all an exstention of Sniper's secondary unlocks that just remove counters with no real downside.

Demoman is very powerful for the skill needed to put into him, and does reward higher skill pretty linearly. When you start reaching insane top .1% competitive ubersweats is when Sniper starts to take off because they can just instakill the opposing power players with little to no counterplay.

It's like how Heavy is a pubstomper; he's a big fat wall of health with a gun that absolutely shits out damage and doesn't really require you to be accurate. His only real weaknesses are that he's slow and that he has to be able to see you and be relatively close to do damage, and maintain that distance and vision for a period of about three seconds tops.

Sniper, meanwhile can literally only see you for a nanosecond and instantly kill you from any distance.

It's more an issue that the game is super fucking old and the only people playing it are people who have the most immense autism and have BEEN playing it for at least ten thousand hours.

no he wouldn't
other classes actually take damage from people they're killing

A demoman has to put himself at risk to get kills. This is what you faggots cannot understand. There is actual counterplay to demoman, i.e. JUST FUCKING SHOOT HIM

If I see a good no-life sniper, I just switch to Pyro with scorch shot to make his life a living hell

So sniper shouldn't exist because he's too strong with hacks? I hope you don't play engie because practical problems seem a bit beyond your grasp.

*unzips scorch shot*

someone being a better player doesn't mean they should be able to completely warp the game into being unplayable. like good soldiers and demos are powerful but they don't completely take over the game on their own because these classes are nowhere near as safe. great soldiers will die to a random crit or getting caught by multiple enemies because they have to actually get up and fight people and take damage themselves. great snipers are in complete safety.

There is actual counterplay to demoman, i.e. JUST FUCKING SHO--

*sticky trap detonation sound*
DIDNT YER SEE THE BLOODEH BOMBS??

great soldiers

caught by multiple enemies

Sticky traps take time to set up and sticky spam has a detonation delay to make the demo vunrable to being rushed down.
Wherever a Sniper right clicked is isntantly a new sightline that can oneshot or cripple classes.

You don't even need to be that good to realize Medic is the most overpowered class in the game. But it's clear the game is designed around him, personally I like it.

walking around playing game

you are now dead and can't play game for X seconds

fundamental micro frustration; the wise accept it, the immature chimp out

insane top .1% competitive ubersweats

I've played with those snipers. Only like one or two have ever been so good I think they should be banned. The only Sniper I've fought that I never, ever, ever, ever want to play against again is M4risa. Why that furry tranny piece of shit is so good at sniping is beyond me.

but in competitive, especially higher tier you get, because Sniper is such a threat HL players have been playing around him. 6s players, like the fucking men we are, still don't give a fuck about Sniper because he's only used rarely and 6s plays the shittiest stalematey maps possible, so a sick snipe is a blessing. I think HL players are genuinely playing the game wrong rn, and the playerbase is just traumatized by the bot crisis. Again, I've fought some of the best snipers in the game. Sometimes they're fucking on one, usually you can just play TF2.

I have never played demoman before

I have two primary weapons, a fuckload of splash damage, and no sense of self preservation. Feels like I'm playing the only OP class in the game.

I think that to balance sniper every weapon needs perfect point of aim spread and headshots even projectiles.

God, how did it come to be that we let insipid little shitheels like you come onto this website? Absolutely inane sub-intellectual mongoloids who are completely incapable of arguing honestly and instead have to slice out the tiniest example and pretend it is the crux of an entire argument in order to try and get an 'epic own' in on someone.

Sometimes I wish that the site really did die after that hack if only so that the slack jawed faggots who only view it as a vehicle to fling shit around like gibbering chimps would finally be forced to fuck off and find a new trendy, iconic stomping ground to run into the ground and take a piss all over. God fucking forbid people actually try to have a discussion in this day and age.

Enjoy the reply, anon.

Nobody likes snipers in any game

*flies in at 1000mph, takes out your medic with a garden then nukes your team with a random crit and calls your Demoman a NEGA before blasting away to safety*

but when you ask high skill players the answer is usually

in reality all the best players think sniper needs nerfing and noone says medic needs nerfing.

looking at the game through the lens of 6v6 is completely retarded because its basically a completely different game with a different meta. sniper isn't picked in 6v6 because there are no players to protect him and no frontline. he gets rocket jumped on or killed by scouts because there isn't a wall of 11 other players in front of him.
meanwhile in highlander which is much closer to actual tf2 gameplay there is always and engineer and sniper ends up being the most powerful class by far. basically the entire highlander meta is about engineers and snipers.

sniper is such a linear and solved 0 iq class that an aimbot with a pro made navmesh can completely solve it

All Snipers mains are trannies, furries or both

Another day, another BarbeQueQ achievement

they're not safe though. people just don't wanna spend time having to deal with them. you can easily harrass snipers with jumping demo/soldier, spy or scout. you're wasting your time in order to waste theirs, which is a good tradeoff if the sniper is being a real problem to your team.

yeah sniper secondaries are strong as fuck for no reason.

Average vuh e posters.

he's literally not the most powerful class by far. It's STILL fucking Medic.

Sniper can kill one person every 1-2 seconds. Medic can make one player completely unkillable for 8 seconds or multiple for slightly less time. Again, MEDIC CAN MAKE PLAYERS COMPLETELY INVINCIBLE FOR 8 SECONDS.

COMPLETELY.

INVINCIBLE.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND HOW FUNDAMENTALLY BROKEN THAT IS. No. Because every 1-2 seconds you get headshot so clearly Sniper is the problem. Demoman can quite literally evaporate an entire team with a single shot. Sniper is a problem though because the range oooooooh i can't stand the range.

My medical opinion? You're retarded. I'm sorry, it's terminal.

basically the entire highlander meta is about engineers and snipers.

low tier highlander meta, yes. When you play with better teams you start learning much more advanced concepts.

playing around engineer

lmfao. absolute cinema.

used to think razorback was so bad I harassed my own teammate snipers when they wore it in pubs

now I think it's retarded overpowered

Why he's allowed to have such a direct counter I don't understand.

Isn't it true that a ton of the balance changes made in the history of the game had a faggot pro-sniper bias? The only nerfs sniper ever had were the damage vulnerability to buschwaka, the removal of full crits on the cleaner, no-flinching on the backpack changed to full scope only, and the p2w headshot resistance with the croc hat and danger shield.
Then you get shit like the sticky jumper, caber, brass beast, ambassador, and other nerfs because whiney faggot snipers kept crying about it.

Razorback is a placebo.

can't be overhealed so you no longer can use a medic to cheese Snipe v Snipe

the spy can just fucking shoot you

can't be overhealed so the spy can... just fucking shoot you

It's bad, and only retarded snipers who can't pay attention run it. SMG and Jarate are both far superior picks.

[retarded shit about medic]

yeah I don't think anyone says medic isn't strong but as I said, noone wants him nerfed. h

low tier highlander meta, yes

high tier highlander is literally all about sniper, what? niggalow moment? you are intentionally vague here because you have literally no idea what you are talking about and are hoping you can just say high tier is totally different and not get called on it.

playing around engineer

In highlander yeah retard?

why bother responding to bait

Removing Sniper would be a net positive in every single FPS game
You can't prove me wrong cause I'm right

you can still be easily killed even with overheal and the spy shooting you is 10 times worse than simply back stabbing your ass and they don't even bother looking behind them because of that
smg sucks major ass as well. jarate is incredibly good though

Sniper in arena shooters were always done right

everyone harps on the Stock instakill headshot

no one talks about Sydney Sleeper crutch letting you just basically bodyshot instakill Pyro/Demo/Soldier 95% of the time since the 5s of Jarate + a light breeze (before or after getting shot) kills them, or get faster charging bodyshot instakills on Scout/Medic/other Snipers

Why's this the case?

how bad are you
just stand in a sentry as sniper retard
you're now forcing the spy to pick between sapping and revealing himself to you or gambling that he can 3shot you before he gets wiped by a sentry
that's literally how all good snipers use it, it's a sentry accessory

Sydney Sleeper """"""can't headshot""""" so no one uses it or cares

you would just complain about noobtubes and shaggots once the long rifles are gone you are the issue not the weapons

great soldiers will die to a random crit

Sniper is also immune from crits now?

getting caught by multiple enemies

jej

It's quite literally NOT about sniper.

noone wants him nerfed

I never CLAIMED anyone wanted him nerfed, read my posts. God damn I hate you people.

high tier highlander is literally all about sniper

It's STILL all about Medic. Sniper controls points, sightlines, and picks high value targets. What does Medic do? WIN THE FUCKING GAME. THE ENTIRE FUCKING GAME IS BALANCED AROUND MEDIC BEING OVERPOWERED YOU DUMB PIECE OF SHIT. Watch top level highlander matches. Are they playing around the sniper sightlines, or are they more worried about Uber Timings? FUCKING WILD HOW UBER TIMINGS IS STILL THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO KEEP TRACK OF WHEN DECIDING TO PUSH. Just because dumb zoomer Open players like ScaryBroccoli think Sniper is OP doesn't mean the top level players have the same opinion. They RESPECT his sightline, not FEAR it.

playing around engineer

In highlander yeah retard?

You know what? I was thinking about how mid he is on non-Payload maps but I'll concede that on Payload he's basically a power class.

Even still, the better players you watch the more you realize they play around the Medic. Sniper's ENTIRE JOB is to kill their sniper, and find the medic. Who hides until he has uber anyway because you know who else wants him dead? EVERYONE ON THE ENEMY TEAM.

I submit again, you are retarded and skill-less. Your mother cries herself to sleep every night because you get killed at a range and have an absolute melty. Sniper is A+ Tier, and will NEVER EVER be S+ tier.

smg sucks major ass as well.

I used to think this as well until my aim improved. It does a surprising amount of DPS. Not solo kill potential but it will definitely save your ass more often than the Razorback. Trust me the overheal thing is MASSIVE.

gets countersniped by an overhealed sniper

nothing personnel, bub.

Playing the head click class without the ability to head click

You can't be overhealed with the razorback anymore? I haven't played in a good while.
And don't get me wrong I'm not trying to argue sniper is overpowered here, but if he's in the range of a sentry shooting him down as a spy becomes much harder. I didn't like that the razorback enabled that to begin with. I like the class, but not that specific item.

click highlander log

sniper always near the top in kills and damage

lol

Sydney sleeper is pretty shit. Sure you only have to bodyshot people but you can bodyshot on any other sniper and do just as much damage while also having the ability to instantly kill people with headshots. Pissing on enemies feels like a meme 90% of the time.
Honestly my favourite part about it is the ability to extinguish teammates from long range with it.

He isn’t even that difficult. All you have to focus on is aiming and sniper 1v1s

Yeah they changed it. It was fucking with me for a few years, I thought that the overheal UI was just bugged sometimes.

It completely changes the Razorback, especially when you need to do a Snipe vs Snipe. It's way, way less good than it used to be since Overheal is Overheal ya know.

I never CLAIMED anyone wanted him nerfed, read my posts

So why bring it up? Just retarded whataboutism?
Sniper doesn't deserve nerfs because Medic is the only support class? Huh? Retard?

It's STILL all about Medic

Yeah everything TF2 is about medic, but again whats your point? It doesn't make Sniper not OP. Like he is literally the best class in the game at catching Medics and killing Med is basically the most impactful thing you can do.

So why bring it up? Just retarded whataboutism?

Can you understand context or am I discussing with a chatbot trained on Anon Babble?>>Sniper doesn't deserve nerfs because Medic is the only support class? Huh? Retard?
I have no idea what your argument is anymore.

So my argument, so you can reset context, is

Sniper isn't overpowered

because the entire game is designed around Medic being overpowered

Which is a good thing many top level players agree. Medic being broken is good.

Like he is literally the best class in the game at catching Medics

arguable, map dependent. You can cherry pick all the examples you want but it doesn't change the fact that Medic is so powerful it directly shapes how impactful Sniper is. So what's more overpowered? The class that can single-handedly carry a game, or the class that's really good at finding him? I mean Sniper can shoot through walls when the medic is hi- Oh wait shit. Well the sniper has tools to push the medic out of cover becau- oh wait. Well luckily the Sniper can just man up and run in because he's so tan- wait fuck. Hm wild it seems that Sniper is only impactful against Medic when his team enables him to be, whereas Medic is enabling every member of his team to be impactful and is the only class that can truly do so. I wonder which of the two is overpowered....

Forcing the spy to give up an instakill is still a pretty big change in the dynamic between Sniper and Spy and really just makes the Sniper harder to kill without effecting his ability to kill (which is what people hate about Sniper), especally when you remember that the Sniper has teammates who could jump in and save the Sniper against a Spy gunning them down.

Give Demoman an AK47

especally when you remember that the Sniper has teammates who could jump in and save the Sniper against a Spy gunning them down.

I wish my fucking teammates would remember that.

medic adds depth to the game and the heals actually make gameplay happen more because you're not waiting for packs and engineers
sniper reduces main to pussy spam ghost town and crams everyone who actually wants to do things into flanks

>Sniper isn't overpowered

>because the entire game is designed around Medic being overpowered

How is medic being powerful an argument against sniper being too powerful? So yeah it was completely retarded whataboutism.

The class that can single-handedly carry a game

Medic literally does not single-handedly carry games you fucking retard. Like by the very definition of "single handed". He requires good teammates to function. Go play Med on a pub and tell me how OP he is while 6000 hour sniper is doming your entire team. Go play highlander and tell me what class has the highest damage and most kills and tell me which class is most powerful.

Medic is balanced by no one wanting to play him

NOOOOOOO JUST LET ME RUN THROUGH THE CHOKE

which Demoman is much more oppressive in btw.

tell me what class has the highest damage and most kills and tell me which class is most powerful.

it's Demoman. It's almost always Demoman are you fucking with me?
I'm scanning logs.tf looking for a game but I can't find anything played Recently in HL with actually decent players. Even with sub-optimal players though Sniper only runs away with the game on maps where you'd expect it. Otherwise his score is as expected. I think you're mistaking your own lack of skill for a class being broken. Happens all the time, I used to think Spy was OP.

Sniper mains can't actually defend their overtuned gimmick class so they just do whataboutisms with every other class.

demo in a choke can die
sniper watching it from a sentry spot can't

Its literally always sniper what the fuck are you talking about?

Even with sub-optimal players though Sniper only runs away with the game on maps where you'd expect it.

Oh right so you basically you couldn't cherrypick anything to suit your own hypothesis but are still too stubborn to actually accept you are wrong.
If it takes you to be in games with the top 0.000001% players on the right map for sniper to not be oppressively powerful then maybe this just shows that he is actually pretty overpowered?

I think you're mistaking your own lack of skill for a class being broken

I think you are out of touch with most of the playerbase and having an ego moment.

FPS game

Effective range is king, like any other FPS game

TF2 specifically has damage fall off for MOST weapons

TF2 specifically design has medium at most to close range design for MOST weapons as most weapons deal pitifully low damage a longer ranges

Among the weapons that can shoot at longer ranges while dealing decent damage are projectile base and have their own flaws (ie LnL having no rollers and having worse splash) or are melees

The Sniper Rifle is the only non-melee hitscan weapon without damage fall off without the use of crits

The Diamond Back can also bypass damage fall off but only with crits, and is also universally despised

That is despite the fact that it deals significantly less damage, only able to oneshot certain spies, requires backstabs, and has bloom

Sniper can oneshot any class and can oneshot 5 of the 9 classes without charge

He can also bodyshot charge kill them

He simply has to only right click then left click on a head to crit (he can mess up multiple times because he’s usually a football field length away from the frontlines and enemies are distracted by teammates)

He is always shooting straight

oh and

Every Sniper main argues like a fucking Jew. How good ol’ Adolf describes them in his book.

Remember, call every snipermain Jewish from now on.

I haven't played TF2 in a while, but I remember often seeing the scoreboard have snipers with zero points.

Fight out in the open

Get headshot

Use cover and try to flank him

Either he's in a position that can't be flanked (map design, sentries, etc.), or he quickscopes you anyway

Sniper mains try to gaslight you into thinking you're the problem

whataboutisms

pic related.

doesn't link the log

no idea who the players are

no idea what map we're on Sniper went off on Lakeside! More at 11.

So it's a bunch of Open shitters as far as I know, congrats you have cherry picked an example. What I was explicitly trying to avoid doing. You have proven nothing.

Sniper being next to a sentry doesn't make him invincible.

Sniper being next to a sentry doesn't make him invincible.

in any remotely good defensive position with a razorback on he absolutely won't die to anything that isn't countersnipes due to the sheer volume of shit going in his favor

>doesn't link the log

>no idea who the players are

Nigga literally click on any of the most recently logs, its all sniper. I am just showing one example. YOU were the one that said to look up logs and the logs show that sniper is literally always the best performer in almost all highlander games.

So it's a bunch of Open shitters as far as I know, congrats you have cherry picked an example.

Conveniently ignores the content of the post only desperately trying to debunk the image because you know you got completely BTFO. The crux of the argument was not in the image.
Again, if it takes you to be in games with the top 0.000001% players on the right map for sniper to not be oppressively powerful then maybe this just shows that he is actually pretty overpowered?
You cannot refute this.

Demoman gets eaten alive by Scout.
I know demoman has the potential to be the most oppressive guy in the lobby, but usually scout is that.
Pubs really are a bad environment when it comes to showing how insane a class can be.

Okay since I'm not afraid I'll link the log of the first few Highlander games I see on Logs.tf, first one is from sorted by recent.

logs.tf/3849816

Heavy top score

Sniper second

Blu team far better than Red overall though

mediocre players overall

Top by Week
logs.tf/3846552

Sniper second top score

tied with 3 other teammates for frags

again massive team diff

no one rostered to any impressive teams

Top by 3 Days
logs.tf/3848975

Sniper goes off on Product!

if this surprises you, you have brain damage

second top is Scout

if this surprises you, you have brain damage

One of the snipers also has a VAC ban, take that as you will.

to make it interesting I finally found one with Invite players instead of Open shitters.
logs.tf/3833762

Now that's a fucking log. I'll let you take a gander, but on inspection you can easily see at the top levels the snipers were incredibly impactful, but not overbearing.
Red team's sniper caught the medic 7 times, blu got them 5. Compare that to the other picks? Fuck, it looks like the spies and snipers were just playing by themselves at a high level.

Wave goodbye to your foreskin wanker!

Sniper is Israeli

a normal human has a reaction time of 200ms, you can perfectly take cover or bait your position in that time

Bonk is shit and so are most of the secondary unlocks in this game now
2015 and 2017 saw sweeping nerfs to just about anything even remotely fun or different

disregard all the games with players I dont think are good personally

disregard all the games on maps I don't like

Ah see, sniper is now only 2nd best performing now gotcha!!!

Lol. Lmao.
Again, if it takes you to be in games with the top 0.000001% players on the right map for sniper to not be oppressively powerful then maybe this just shows that he is actually pretty overpowered?
Your refusal to refute or even acknowledge this is an admission that he is infact overpowered 99% of the time.

bro just go and kill him

I actually bothered to log into RGL and it turns out Top by Week and Top by 3 Days are also Invite level games. So out of 3 invite games we have one that supports your theory, on a map I know Sniper dominates. Then 2 that support my theory.

I am not fucking afraid to admit when I'm wrong, come at me nigger. I don't do anything but study TF2 and I'm a Herald shitter waiting for DotA2 queue to pop. I GOT NOTHING BUT TIME AND GAME KNOWLEDGE.

You mean like how Spy and Heavy, the two worst classes in the game, are the two most oppressive in Casual because they require coordination to deal with which pub teams have none of? That means Spy and Heavy MUST be OP. There's NO OTHER LOGICAL CONCLUSION.

If he's so good why isn't everyone playing him?

he's boring
legitimately the least mechanically complex class in the game, once you've learned
the quickscoping timing you know everything

You mean like how Spy and Heavy, the two worst classes in the game, are the two most oppressive in Casual

They aren't though. Sniper is way more oppressive than either. Just shows you are out of touch with people who actually play the game.

Whole bot shit got completely insufferable because sniper

Guise sniper is completely fine

you're right, I haven't played in awhile. Maybe I should play again sometime soon.

god damn it i self-owned. I was looking at the thumbnails not the filenames please forgive me, I changed where my screenshots were saved.

erm actually sniper isn't op because he only performs 2nd best in invitational games

just become invitational level skill and then sniper is not actually op bro

people out there really saying this shit

How do I git gud at rocket jumping?
I've tried jump maps but I feel like they either were too advanced for a retard like me or they expect you to know mechanics I don't know about.

That was not my argument at all and is an incredibly bad faith take on what I'm saying. You're free to believe what you want to believe though, it won't make you any better at the game.

Because he's the only thing keeping medics in check.

he thinks hackers will stop if sniper is gone

Heavy bots were worse

just play the game and equip gunboats and jump ALL the time until it becomes second nature, always aim to go to flanks or kill yourself while bombing medics
if you're low health but above 20 and are losing your current fight just jump and secure that kill
no matter how tiny a distance you're going you're still improving by a tiny bit
JUMP

jump_4starters and jump_academy_b4 or something are the best maps for learning jumping imo. Play around with sensitivity, and play on official jump maps. Start off with infinite ammo for practice and anyone who tells you otherwise is a faggot. Then just play around with it and practice over and over until you develop the muscle memory.
I recommend jump_4starters. Practice the blue area, I think that's the first one, until you can do it without even trying. Then move onto Red. Then you CAN move onto the next one if you like jumping, but imho if you can do blue and red on 4starters through instinct, and can do other basic jump maps, you're good enough to jump on standard maps. Anything else and you're learning far more obscure tech that you almost never need. Sync jumps are fun though.

heavy and spy

On casual

What the fuck you talking about. Those two still depend on team to do heavy lifting, and spy is been pubstomping since release.

Meanwhile any faggy ass australium sniper can sit behind team and get 20-30 kills with no effort.

And what the fuck they going do?

Heavy is slow, Scout is frail and other classes have better stuff.

muh amby

Still spy.

Fun fact
Sniper didn't have long range minigun flinch immunity until 2012. Valve just decided to buff Sniper out of nowhere when they introduced Cozy Camper.

and spy is been pubstomping since release.

pic related

Meanwhile any faggy ass australium sniper can sit behind team and get 20-30 kills with no effort.

So you like to run in straight lines. Don't ask me how I know.

And what the fuck they going do?

HE DOESN'T KNOW

Nobody tell him.

its not bad faith though. its what you are saying. you are trying to shame people for struggling vs snipers by showing invite games where snipers still do very well. the end of this very post it doing it. you basically took the whole discussion of sniper to a context completely removed from how 99% of players play to make a point and sniper still looks strong. incredibly retarded and failure to understand how game balance works.
good games aren't balanced purely by what is balanced at the highest skill level.

And what the fuck they going to do?

anything they want to disrupt the game they hate?auto join bot is still fully functional so if all the botters used them all at once you wouldnt be able to join any server in the game since they can tag your account through steam and join any game you join while you do

Minigun accuracy still is tad spotty, anyone cheating with heavy use tomislav.

Why that shit is better than stock who fucks knows.

what the fuck are "official jump maps"?

Comp already restricts sniper to one per team. It's also been said having a sniper on your team would probably be meta if jarate wasn't banned.

Also needing a fucking uber to deal with something wouldn't make that thing weak.

It's better than stock at mid range to long range, but always loses at close range against stock because of the slower firing speed.

only counter to class is the same class

this isn't broken

you are trying to shame people for struggling vs snipers

again, bad faith reading of what I'm saying.

good games aren't balanced purely by what is balanced at the highest skill level.

no but when you want to extrapolate data, it's usually the most effective way to determine a game's actual balancing versus perceived balancing. Sniper is a feelsbad class, like Spy. It feelsbadman to get fucking killed from across the map. Like I don't also hate running into choke ready to murder 12 people and then get headshot by some dumb motherfucker sitting next to a sentry who's been standing therre for 10 fucking minutes. I call him a nigger so loud, my neighbors hear me. The difference is, I'm also willing to acknowledge that sometimes there's a problem that isn't with the class, but with the decision making that led to me getting killed by that class.
We want to think TF2 is a highly aggressive pub pushy game, but when you really step back and look at how a good game of TF2 is played when Red and Blu both play optimally, it's a really stalematey defensive game. For both teams. That's part of why Sniper feels so powerful to players who don't take a look at the game as a whole and only the individual decisions in a vacuum. Sniper punishes bad mistakes, he's the best class at punishing mistakes. I can't tell you to never make mistakes, but you can learn to play in ways to mitigate mistakes and get punished for them less.

It's also been said having a sniper on your team would probably be meta if jarate wasn't banned.

I've actually heard this too, why is Jarate considered so OP? Is it really just that mini-crits on demand is that fucking good for a class that technically doesn't need a secondary?

Also, most classes are restricted to 1 in 6s. Some classes get silly if you stack them see: Engineer

They would be crippled hard with sniper gone. Especially the pathfinding bots that don't benefit from human input.

You were good son, real good. Maybe even the PAINIS.

*killbinds*

again, bad faith reading of what I'm saying.

you know not everything that makes you look bad is bad faith. you literally were trying to shame skill in your last post. I don't know how else you are supposed to read that. your whole point is shitty "le git gud" ego stroking.

no but when you want to extrapolate data, it's usually the most effective way to determine a game's actual balancing versus perceived balancing

its not. if you look at other games like league of legends for example, they balance the game by looking at champ data for each character at different skill levels. a champ like lux is very strong in low elo but underpowered in high elo. the company makes sure its not too op in one context and not too up in another.
to compare this to tf2, snipers current state is like if a league champ had 80% winrate and ban rate but it doesn't get balanced because in challenger its around 52% winrate. it would be terrible balancing because most of the playerbase don't play in hyper optimised perfect games. but this is pretty much your argument. you think because if something isn't overpowered at the highest level it must somehow be balanced at every other level of player and everyone just needs to get better.
the alternative is to balance classes around every level of play. sniper can get nerfs that prevent good players from taking over casual servers while still making him just as effective at high level.

Thoughts on Valve having officially implemented source code-aided community bug fixes?

Scout and classes with advanced mobility do not have problem with snipers.
The only real issue with snipers design is that outside of those 3 classes and another sniper, everyone else just has to pray that he misses in order to survive the engagement. Shooting at him doesn't jar his aim enough to work at suppressing him in a similar way that being hyper paranoid mostly shuts down spy shenanigans. Its compounded by the fact that fighting at a distance also means you're dealing less damage due to both damage falloff and bullet spread so he can shrug it off more easily.

I play soldier. My only real counter is skilled air blasting pyros

Next two best target for cheating are projectile classes, no amount of aimbot can make you hit when your opponent can actually dodge or force you to take damage.

On top of that they are largely static compared to anyone with actual skill, flying demo/soldier grabbing kills back and forth is actually scary.

Because he's a crazed gunman!

Minicrits can be pretty damn powerful yeah, especially since they ignore falloff.

Also, most classes are restricted to 1 in 6s. Some classes get silly if you stack them see: Engineer

That's the thing though. These classes get restricted precisely because they aren't weak. People are really bad at thinking that any class that's not part of the main four in 6s are automatically weak instead of looking into why they aren't used.

Heavy and Engie in particular are in the same boat in that they are only not used because of the prep time they require before they can be of use. But an engie whose given time because he's in defense with a set up timer is actually considered meta meanwhile GRU got banned because compfags actually had a problem with heavy being able to overcome his rollout problem.

I love the classic but its so anemic to use when trying to deal with other snipers so you cant really run it fulltime like you could with sleeper or huntsman.

I would concede but we already know Valve balances the game around casual and has a better sense of game balance than the community in most instances.

We can tell this through

DotA2's balancing

the absolute fucking travesty that was MYM

Valve doesn't balance around competitive play, they balance around actual balancing versus perceived balancing. When you look at Team Fortress 2's balancing and how the game is intended to be played, Sniper fits into the mesh perfectly. He is a high skill class that punishes players who go too far out of position, or reveal themselves in no man's land for too long. I again submit the problem isn't with the balancing of the class, but with the perception of the game state versus his actual impact on it. That's the crux of my argument.

I was there man I 'member Heavy to mid strats. Absolutely degenerate bullshit. Me and another team used to fuck around a lot and we've done some wild scrims. I've played HL on 2Fort before, that was a surprisingly fun match. Dustbowl is AWESOME with HL rules. Either way, we did a no ban list HL back before the Danger Shield got changed.

Anyway my game of dota2 finally fucking popped and I am ass at this game, wish me luck!

anons if sniper is gone and the other classes are "too hard" to make cheats for then it'll just be back to server crashing and mic spam this is the most likely scenario

I've actually heard this too, why is Jarate considered so OP?

Because its a spammable projectile that can basically singlehandedly win teamfights. Most snipers are shit and use it selfishly just to kill a spy with bushwaka but if you spam it at groups of enemies which your team kill easily due to minicrits it is very strong.

That's valve fucking problem.

I would concede but we already know Valve balances the game around casual

That's bullshit. Most of the fun weapons in TF2 got nerfed into the ground because of competitive play.

That because most anon are bad at video game.

sniper op

no

yes

*autistic screeching for 200 posts*

well sniper might be op

DON'T CARE NOT MY PROBLEM VALVE DOES NOT FIX IT THAT MEANS IT'S FINE

Fucking disingenuous faggot

youtube.com/watch?v=GFXGwko225k

If the thing allowed you to jump and shoot, it'd be enough of a difference to actually make it pretty reliable for fulltime. Also a faster charge since you can't headshot until full charge.

Server exploits

Yes, that's their fucking job to fix those and earrape micspam can be dealt with mute.

or reveal themselves in no man's land for too long

no man's land being a third to half the map and too long being .75 seconds if they're above decent

Bullshit. Most nerfs were due to very prolific public outcry, and most of those are still ignored to this day (wrangler shield, vaccinator being cancerous)
There are fewer than a handful of nerfs that were specifically cited as being from competitive formats. The only thing that could be cited as "competitive players" is actually just "skilled players". Most scouts in 2007 were shit at the game and played maps that scout struggled in, Valve added items that made scout into a monster if you had any amount of aim or ability to dodge, which is why most of scout's weapons got nerfed in some way: good scouts were eating pubs, while competitive knew to ban things from their format that made him stronger than he needed to be (even the medic speed mirroring was removed with a plugin for a bit since it was super controversial to make scout even stronger with a beam on him but they eventually adapted since it made the format faster to play which they found more fun overall)

Dota balancing is a mixed bag of both sides, but waves tend come around major events.

It's mostly to force people play new stuff than actual balance.

this video proves its a skill issue

I'm working on it.

Problem is that if you enable shots while jumping is youll get peekshots at the apex of the jump that you cant do anything about until he's already seen you.
No headshots while jumping would be fine, as itd enable you to still land a headshot while juggled airborne or go for bodyshots on light classes such as other snipers.
Faster charge speed makes sense too since its basically a bullet huntsman.

It was quite crappy and biased ass experiment. Not mention just one map.

There is a fair amount of maps that sniper can hold a whole area by itself, and you have shit like breadspace.

it goes over atleast three maps and 90plus games for the three maps how can you lie like this on the internet?

GRU nerfed because 6v6 players didn't like heavy having mobility

Sandman nerfed to death because 6v6 players hated its ability to stun ubers

Caber nerfed to death because 6v6 players didn't like it 1 shotting med

Base Jumper nerfed to death because 6v6 players hated soldier having too much in air mobility

Atomizer nerfed because 6v6 players didn't like scout being too unpredictable in air

I could go on.

Thank you first of all.
I remember playing this map a long time ago and giving up here. I use my 4 rockets just to get to the platform but then it seems it wants me to not land and instead stay in the air and go upwards. But I don't have rockets left, and even if I did I don't know how to do this without being able to land there lol, I already have a hard time making it to that point.

Sandman nerfed to death because 6v6 players hated its ability to stun ubers

They weren't wrong on this tho. Sandman stun was downright retarded.

put on razorback

stand next to sentry

become untouchable

there is a reason the entire HL meta revolves around sniper and 12v12 makes it even worse
if he has any players actively babysitting him you are never going to kill him

It needed a nerf but its current state is so ridiculously shit that noone uses it at all anymore. Even the fucking christmas parody version of it is infinitely more useful.

no one likes snipers, it's the same irl

I'm totally helpless at close range mate!

*jarate bushwacks you*

he stops soldiers and demos from taking over the entire server

/thread
It's all so tiresome.

Valve balancing consisted of introducing weapon which is mediocre, buffing it to be broken, nerfing it to be shit, and then some kind of middle ground. After the Blue Moon update, they just stopped at the nerfing to shit aspect and haven't bothered since because Faggotlock needs manpower

Just call for medic and cuck his quickscope.
youtu.be/u_PYtu_Liew

TF staff fucked off long ago, deadlock is mostly dota you dumbass.

It's literally the Sniper whiners who speak in terms of him being uNfAiR because you can't kill him from long range, but he can kill you. They're the ones that want to turn Team Fortress 2 into a deathmatching movement shooter where everyone's on equal grounds pretty much at all times, when that's not the point of the game.

That's why I suggest infinite ammo for now. That one in particular I believe is a sync jump and I remember it being kind of a bitch when i was new. You can cheese it with infinite ammo by learning how to properly walljump. Good trade-off imo. Good luck, Soldier. You'll be flying through the sky with the rest of us in no time.

TF2 has open maps where characters can freely move around. But this leads to cancerous sightlines where the sniper can pick people off without much resistance if he's not focused on. Even if you focus him, he is behind enemy lines which makes it tough to get him. He has little risk, super high reward. And there's not great counterplay to going against him. You fight a good soldier, he only has 4 rockets, then he's gimped down to a shotgun or forced to reload. Both are opportunities to go in on him. You can dodge rockets, change the angle of how he can fire at you. There's ways to fight around his skill because he has limits. And he has to be close to be effective so he's exposed. Sniper at a distance is untouchable and doesn't have real limiters aside from his skill.

GRU nerfed because 6v6 players didn't like heavy having mobility

Old GRU there is no reason not run heavy 24/7 because the mini crit downside did not matter for rollouts. Full time heavy shuts down all aggression and turns the meta into overwatch style deathballs with heavy being the reinhardt equivalent.

Sandman nerfed to death because 6v6 players hated its ability to stun ubers

The game revolves around uber both casually and competitively. Scout being able to deny an ability that takes a minimum 40s to charge with the fastest projectile in the game on a 10s cooldown that he can spam from spawn is idiotic and even if it didn't stun ubers it's a free "I win" button against heavies.

Caber nerfed to death because 6v6 players didn't like it 1 shotting med

See uber

Base Jumper nerfed to death because 6v6 players hated soldier having too much in air mobility

The change did absolutely nothing for casual players who weren't abusing the deploy spam trick to begin with.
Who gives a fuck?

Atomizer nerfed because 6v6 players didn't like scout being too unpredictable in air

Scout already curbstomps soldier and demo without atomizer. He doesn't need more jumps for free.

just hide behind a wall and stay there

play the game? nono sniper is on enemy team so you're not allowed

Rework the Danger Shield too so Pyro can annoy Snipers. Sniper should be as weak as possible in close range against any combat class. Other than that, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with Sniper.

This

stop playing fps if you cannot handle being shot from far away i dont care what you think tf2 is and cancerous is not a correct term because if sniper was truly cancerous valve wouldve not added him to the game since he would be a ever growing useless mass on the game as a whole that valve would seen during testing phases

I have 27k frags on my strange sniper rifle, I've been playing the class since 2011, he is BUSTED and I would celebrate if they removed him tomorrow.

you can just reply with "yes, they were all nerfed because of comp" instead of all this

ability to stun ubers

Funny you bring that up, its ability to stun ubered players was removed 5 months after the Scout Update and was never brought back. I have no idea why that kept being brought up during nerf discussions, there was literally nothing wrong with the Sandman pre-Jungle Inferno.

Man, Sniper really is busted when you put it that way. I imagine Sniper just tops the scoreboard constantly in every pub if there's no way to kill him unless his team is at a disadvantage, especially with his headshot multipliers.

GRU was given an actual downside since the health drain and even mark for death meant very little when you're rolling out with a medic, it was buffed in other areas (better damage and better for escapes since it now only drains max health)
Sandman was always retarded, dont be disingenuous. Go play pornwatch if you want stuns in an fps. They did go overboard with the nerf though.
Caber wasn't 1shotting medics already after its first nerf (max 149 damage lol). The actual nerf it got was more about demoman just being really strong and not needing a "we both lose" button by clicking the floor
BASE jumper didn't have enough time to be properly trialed in a comp season before the nerfs, thats on Valve for seeing what a good airstrafing player can do and decided to tone it down. It is still very good for guaranteeing your bomb kills the med.
Abusing the atomizer 10 health cost for dodging more than 10 damage is insane value and a good scout with it would just shit over projectile classes. Stock scout is already a monster if he's not retarded. Valve wanted it to be a mobility tool, not a combat tool. And they added the mini market gardener effect to compensate for shifting the weapons identity via brute force
Valve is notorious for underestimating just how much you can do with weapons in the hands of someone that knows how to play extremely well, they don't have anyone internal that is at that level of skill that they could rely on for balance like dota had with icefrog. They just played it by ear, for better and for worse

Oh you don't like being shot at under imbalanced circumstances?

Just stop playing videogames with guns idiot

This kind of retarded reductionist thinking is why no one can ever talk about sniper properly for more than 10 minutes. Now learn how to structure your sentences ESL

Playtesters are retard and most importantly, they lack skill for such such thing.

Sniper got put on game due respect to original format, but on previous games they had to deal with nade spam and all sorts of shit on top of insta respawn.

TF2 being objective based rather than glorified DM make him far more impactful, nobody like wait 30 second on respawn because faggot australium Hale own sniper magically clicked you though a single pixel.

sandman would still be broken if comp did not exist

yes, they were all nerfed because of comp

nobody knows because valve doesn't communicate
who asked for the bison to be nerfed?

My team was playing against the best Sniper I had ever played against one time, and we all banded together to call out his position if you die to him. With just a couple people on the team doing that, he was totally shut down by focus fire, and we won despite their team being slightly better overall and with a god-tier Sniper.

who asked for the bison to be nerfed?

Comp player here. Fuck Valve unnerf that weapon jesus fucking christ I miss spamming that useless piece of shit down hallways. The bison is literally throwing it's so god damn bad. FUCK.

you are a retard lmao didnt read

neither of you will ever be good at fps games you me again

If they worked better as a team, Sniper or not, then they DESERVE to win. If another team winning bothers you that much, or other people playing the game normally take away your ability to have fun, you don't actually like TF2 and therefore should go play another game instead of trying to neuter its depth for the rest of us who do.

there was literally nothing wrong with the Sandman pre-Jungle Inferno.

overwatch stun mechanics dont belong in tf2
getting shit on as heavy because scout threw a baseball at you is retarded

there was literally nothing wrong with the Sandman pre-Jungle Inferno.

Being unable to use your gun in an FPS is a pretty significant thing wrong with it.
In the hands of a scout that isn't bad at the game, thats a free 70-ish damage before you can shoot back at him, assuming he doesn't just cleaver you for 150 + bleed.
The weapon should have been annoying, not debilitating. Turn it into a funny knockback bat instead of the slowdown it has now that doesn't even work.

What was the point of even nerfing the bonk, that was absolutely retarded. I know you can just spam strafe and negate the nerf but it's just annoying as shit.

decimate

post discarded

Virtually untouched since release.

Where is the buff?

so scout can't flank for free though the sticky jumper is far worse in that regard

Old GRU there is no reason not run heavy 24/7

And? God forbid the 1 Med/1 Demo/2 Soldier/2 Scout meta these faggots have been scrimming for 3000 hours gets disrupted. God forbid they have to learn some new counterplay or try picking one of the other 5 classes in the game. Allowing Heavy to reach mid would add some interesting variety to the compnigger no items/Fox only/Final Destination hugbox servers they play on. It's the equivalent of allowing 24/7 Dustbowl pipe spammers to decide what gets nerfed, you're only catering to a small segment of players. None of these items are busted in casual where the majority of players play.

It's perfect the way it is. You can even also stickyspam despite the slow detonator

It's incredible dude, I read these threads in awe every time, and then in this same thread, you have this guy acting like we're the schizos who don't even play TF2 for being able to draw on real experiences that we've had and ways to counter Sniper in them. It's beyond any words or comprehension.

my experience of owning pablo 2010 represents the peak of sniper counterplay chud!!!

Nah it need a fucking faster reload, sticky traps mean jackshit when you waste more time reloading than doing your job.

Problem is that 6v6 don't have enough DPS to burst down Heavy + medic combo, aside another of those or sniper, unlike pubs where any of they get killed by spam fast.

Still kinda agree with you tho.

It was given the following changes

faster firing speed

stickies near feet now detonate (to help with sticky jumps)

fix bug caused by above where you could detonate bombs inside the barrel

longer arm time

It honestly doesn't need anything other than fixing the glow occasionally breaking.
Only thing that feels real bad is that sticky destroy on the quickies and scorch shot just shits all over the matchup.
Personally I'd add the following 2 changes and be done with it

stickies are heavier once armed so they don't fly all over the place from a single explosion

explosions destroy all enemy projectiles, not just enemy stickies.

Its fun if you use it to create minefields while playing grenades as primary. Give it a try instead of just trapping doors on defense.

And? God forbid the 1 Med/1 Demo/2 Soldier/2 Scout meta these faggots have been scrimming for 3000 hours gets disrupted

It's the most fun and complex meta and people play 6s to have fun.

God forbid they have to learn some new counterplay

The only counterplay is to bring a heavy yourself. It forces both teams to run heavy at all times it's not adding any depth it's dumbing it down.

Record ten gorillion voicelines exclusive to the competitive mode

Nobody plays it

Good post. Sniper has no ability to crowd control because of his pick rate, which is what gives every opposing team an consistent window to take him out or make him flee due to that fact combined with his low mobility and damage. I find other Scouts, Soldiers, Demos, and Heavies to be more of a challenge.

Should use proxy detonation instead.
Give them a little sound cue so they only catch unaware players like sentry guns.

The GRU was originally made in the direct interest of compfags, who dismiss Heavy in competitive games for being too slow, to make Heavy more competitively viable.

Compfags ban the weapon in competitive games (and still is after being further nerfed in Jungle Inferno) because it would upset their meta.

Heavy is a defense specialist. His presence alone means the enemy team has to expend considerable resources just to damage him enough, and its not like the heavy has no team. Same deal for engineer.
Full time heavy means that every single chokepoint now feels like pushing into last, which grinds the game to a fucking halt while ubers get built
The reason comp players don't do it is because it was tried and they did not enjoy it. The comp format itself is a product of years of trial and error before landing on the player count, class limits, timer settings, map pool, and whitelist that they have. This shit didn't pop into existence one day.

Snipers are easy kills and very vulnerable as well. They also weaken their team's frontline if you play according to the map's strengths since +1 Sniper is -1 a Heavy or Demo.

I would buff it so it makes sound and particle cue if enemies walk pass it.
This sticky encourages multitasking but our brain isn't built for it. Most end up playing like normal stickybomb launcher with backup sticky for retreating.

because people are bad at the game lol lmao
yeah I been playing a shitload of sniper lately

>The GRU was originally made in the direct interest of compfags

[citation needed]
also comp players had no issue with prenerf eviction notice

No, I have to CONSISTENTLY be able to counter them (never die) or it's a broken game flaw! (happens with every other class besides Sniper too, but we'll ignore that)

According to these people, because you can manage an opposing Sniper 70-80% of the time rather than 100%, this is somehow worse than when you walk blindly around a corner into a sticky trap, a revved Heavy you didn't know was there and can now not avoid no matter how you move, a Spy backstab, or a Soldier bombing in with two rockets synced up for max ramp up.

sniper, heavy and engineer are all a part of the boring nigger trio
they slow the game down to shit and their counterplay is entirely methodical and repetitive

You would complain about the next big thing that frustrates you until you and your ilk have turned the game into the most generic, metagaming slog possible, which your kind has already done enough of in TF2 as it is with weapon nerfs alone. Such is the fate of every game who's developers listen to faggot, shitter whiners.

GRU was one of the items that was tested in a closed beta where only a handful of at-the-time comp players got access (though it may have also included more people who kept quiet and never made videos), along with the PDQ and an unnamed pistol that teleported you to your teleporter exit.

GRU was one of the items that was tested in a closed beta where only a handful of at-the-time comp players got access

again where is your proof?

You don't actually enjoy TF2 if you think that.

Did people even complain about Sniper being OP before YouTubers started making videos about it?

NTA, but here.
wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Team_Fortress_2_Closed_Beta

Team Fortress 2 Closed Beta was a version of Team Fortress 2 that included experimental weapons and features that were privately tested by top-level competitive players in 2009

>Sandman nerfed to death because 6v6 players hated its ability to stun ubers

The Uber stunning was removed WAY before competitive TF2 was a thing.
Also, do you listen to yourself or read your posts before posting them?

Uhhh yeah I do believe that the fastest projectile in the game with unlimited ammo and fast recharge should also be able to completely immobilize invincible players that were building up invincibility for 40 seconds minimum

Do you want me to personally ask people who participated in something 15 years ago and have basically disappeared from the internet?
Its obvious what the intent was without it being spelled out. Heavy and Engineer weren't being played due to their slow speed making them unable to keep up. This predates being able to move buildings and gunslinger and the buffs the minigun got in the 119th update.

It only started after the bot waves. The only argument they have is that cheaters cheat, therefore game class is bad.

Sniper is not strong. We are all just legit cheating with our $23 lmaobox and you are too stupid to notice it.

Obviously people did, but very few. It has nothing to do with skill, it has to do with mindset. People have weak minds now and view anything that kills them or frustrates them as a fundamental flaw in the game because they grew up on games that had no challenge to them and think that's the way games are supposed to be designed. Patch out anything that causes momentary negative feelings in a player that might require further game knowledge to overcome because not everyone will be willing to put forth that effort or time.

those 3 classes don't have a single fun interaction
engineer is just building jannying, anything more risky means eating shit and valve made the mistake of assuming 2 gamemodes will always have one on both sides rendering them unplayable without
heavy's job is to be slow as shit and deal chip damage and hold left click and he's countered by corner spam which neither side enjoys
sniper's a fucking solved predictable class that can be completely perfected with an aimbot and a navmesh that tells you all the sniper spots

Sniper has been complained about since before team fortress 2 was released.
Theres a reason the billboard in meet the sniper says FOAD, they were aware of the general player frustration with being clicked on from afar.

Found an interesting article on it
shacknews.com/article/59820/team-fortress-2-closed-beta

"Up until now we've been successful at measuring that impact on the non-competitive TF2 community, because we have good internal proxies for it--the TF2 team itself, plus other internal and external playtesters. Our proxies for the high end competitive play aren't as good, and that's lead to us making some design decisions that have hurt it."

"This doesn't reflect any change of our attitude towards non-competitive TF2 play, it's just going to give us more data," he added. "We'll continue to talk and listen to the non-competitive TF2 players, as we have done in the two years since we shipped. The more data we have, the more effective we'll be as we continue striving for design choices that work for all TF2 players."

Also a 2009 interview from Robin Walker
web.archive.org/web/20090924110120/http://communityfortress.com/tf2/news/exclusive-interview-with-valves-robin-walker.php

Blame compfags, and uncle dane the molester main.

We're due for Team Fortress 3.

Bonk is shit and so are most of the secondary unlocks in this game now

Bonk is still good it's just "boring"
A get out of jail free card, soaking up sentry fire, distracting the enemy team, and tanking ubers are all very valuable it's just not as exciting as lobbing a meat cleaver at someone.

Fighting Engineers and Snipers are what makes a map memorable in the first place. Sure, you could have a wide open arena with little cover and just have all the combat classes duke it out without Engi or Sniper getting in the way of your fun, but eventually you're going to crave more. Otherwise, you should probably just be playing MGE or something.

Sentries and Snipers are respectively close and long-range ways of giving the moment-to-moment combat more depth and flavor. All the combat classes are designed to be basically 50-50 odds of beating each other in a 1 vs 1 scenario, give or take a little. A Pyro might be 35-65 against an equally skilled Scout, but the odds are still relatively balanced. It's the Engis and their sentries, Medics and their ubers/overheals, and Snipers and Spies with their one-shot capabilities that really skew that extremely in one direction or another depending on the situation. They are other threats that you have to keep in the back of your mind and coordinate around, usually with the goal of focus fire.

australian

Kinda ended abruptly there, but it goes without saying that I think the unique challenges that classes like Engi and Sniper offer are fun to play against.

I didn't complain about snipers until amby got nerfed

Bonk was basically only equipped by clueless F2P and those who want to backcap dustbowl even before the nerf.

I think sniper is conceptually fine he's just overtuned.
Lowering his reserve ammo, movement speed, giving every round a tracer, and deleting jarate, dds, and razorback from the game would go a long way. spy buffs would be nice too.
Why is sniper perfectly accurate while unscoped but spy has to deal with the revolver's atrocious spread?

Valve's never rotating out or fixing bad maps is also part of the problem.
Every good sniper spot should either be within rocket jumping distance of a soldier or there should always be a longer flank route to him that he can't effectively watch.

Heard someone suggest that while scoped in the sniper should take full crits if he can kill you with a crit from far away. Risk reward

I hate when people say giving Sniper tracer rounds wouldn't solve anything. It absolutely would, for those of us who know what we're doing anyway. Most of my Sniper deaths are just not knowing he was there in the first place, which is fine, it happens, but it would definitely help the counterplay if you knew ahead of time because of a previous shot. It would also add a little strategy in for Sniper, maybe he delays his first shot of a new life a couple seconds until he's sure he's got it locked in, because he knows that the other team will know his location for sure after he does shoot.

Other than that, Darwin's needs reworked for sure, but I agree, he's conceptually fine.

Scrubs who only know how to run in straight lines and have to be dragged kicking and screaming to non-melee weaponry.

Also, something else I just thought of in regards to tracers: It telegraphs the perfect time to advance. Picture it, you're trying to advance the cart to Frontier's 2nd point up that big hill as BLU. You want to cross the huge sightline safely, maybe that upper bridge part. There'd be no better time to do so than after seeing a Sniper's tracer round, something you'd be able to see even if he missed. Sniper has to reload his bolt-action rifle between each shot, a 1.5 attack interval. That's plenty of time to advance safely from one area to another. It'd be like avoiding a ceiling smasher obstacle in a sidescroller, you time your advancement right after the smasher comes down.

I'd say there's already enough of a downside to being scoped with how you lose your peripheral vision. Plus, it wouldn't help quickscoping, which is what most people already whine about.

A Pyro might be 35-65 against an equally skilled Scout

Maybe if theyre both shit. But the matchup becomes absolutely miserable the moment the scout realizes that he has buttons other than W.
Its more like 95-5 in a straight 1v1, Pyro only has a real chance if he fulltimes a shotgun and at that point its just healthbar race and scout has the advantage due to scattergun being tangibly stronger than the shotgun, on top of his better mobility.

It's the most fun and complex meta

By definition, a meta where only a single composition is playable is not complex. A complex meta would involve shifting compositions for counterpicking.

people play 6s to have fun.

good troll. Actually talking about competitive.

you should try playing 6s for once instead of talking out of your ass about a format you know nothing about

You are a dishonest person, and the game would be better off if you started playing overwatch.

Team comps often shift based on map state. Offclassing is a normal occurrence so much that metas develop specifically around last holds with the middle 3 points more or less running meta class makeup since that's when the game is most fast paced, then there's KOTH which is an eternal fight over mid with a truncated rollout.

His primary should be doing damage only in long distance, and punished in short distance.

duuuude i can just walk all the way back to the enemy base unscathed

I can pass through demonigger and soidier explosive spam

there is definitely not a pyro or a engi nest awaiting at the rear

Why aren't you jumping yet Anon Babble?

This is why people don't like 6s. There's no denying that the current meta isn't the tried and true best for 6s, but that's not what TF2 is. Heavy is a viable combat class in pubs and on maps and gamemodes that aren't favored by 6s, meaning he's viable on Payload, Attack/Defend, and Capture the Flag. He's not a defense specialist any more than Demo is. Teleporters disproportionately his effectiveness relative to other classes, teleporters which wouldn't be viable enough to exist in 6s since you can just run the highly mobile combat classes instead, leaving Pyro and Heavy to specialized roles. If there were 12 players, it would be viable to run Engineer because Engineer's buildings would help more people, and because certain gamemodes like Payload would be more fun in a 12 vs 12 setting.

6s removes the viability of so much of what makes TF2 TF2. All the Competitive update should've been was adding a tryhard version of pubs, similar to the day one version of Casual Mode. Real winners and losers, ranks, rewards, punishments, all that good stuff. People would've loved it.

He would be an even bigger problem on strong classes like soldier or demo.

lmao no, many snipers mains that are insane on sniper don't come close to soldier or demo mains even in pubs. After they get rolled a few times too many they very often just switch back to sniper and stand behind their teammates and sentries where you can't push them.

It should be the exact opposite, by giving him full damage at long range you incentivize him standing far out of reach where no class can really reach him. It also goes against the core of the game, close to medium combat. If you would have him only do full damage in close to close/medium range you would force him to put himself at risk to get the full potential out of his kit. High risk high reward, not low risk high reward

b-but its a sniper he is supposed to

yea its an arcade shooter, its not meant to mimic real life.

He's not a defense specialist any more than Demo is

Demoman can fly and Heavy cannot. Fighting a demo is significantly more nuanced in a multiplayer setting than having to cornerpeek heavy like he's the damn spider mastermind.
The classes strength is antithetical to what 6s players want to play. They find him boring on both sides of the barrel so they elect not to force a player into a role that they do not want to be tethered to. The 3 primary combat classes can pivot between offense and defense quickly, heavy is limited by too much, and when that limitation got mostly removed with the launch tomislav, he started breaking the game in pubs because he had too much fucking health to be as mobile as he was, and he was still just as unpleasant to fight as and against in 6s so that ridiculous flexibility just confirmed prior biases.
If you wanna play heavy go ahead. But most people want to explore and enjoy the movement tech that the game has, of which heavy has basically none that isn't universal like surfing, ctap jumps, and strafejumping.

i would if demo had gunboats
this is too impractical to waste my time on, the real demo gameplay is jumping to medium packs barely alive and heavily relying on medic
demo is easily the best medic recipient in the game

Its better that soldier got gunboats.
Demoboats just becomes fly to spawn and camp, and demo is more defined by his massive damage output than soldier is by his sidearm, if anything rocketjumping IS the soldier's identity so gunboats just work better overall.

demo is easily the best medic recipient in the game

That easily goes to scout now that medic mirrors runspeed. Theres a reason that 6s meta shifted from pocket soldier to pocket scout. The little bastard is already a monster without a beam up his ass 24/7

I don't know, it just seems to me a bunch of pedants arbitrarily decide which classes are allowed 2 and aren't, which classes are allowed to be fun and viable and aren't....

etc.

they both should've gotten gunboats
soldier is much more interesting to me because even though your damage is weaker all you end up doing as demo is walking around main stickyspamming and begging for heals
soldier can try to infiltrate the flanks, scout feels insanely comfortable to be anywhere but demo feels awkward if you're not being healed and spamming

It's fascinating how you take the narrow opinions of 6's players, people who almost killed the game with their pettiness, to be universal to what players want.

You force out players to gatekeep, and then use your gatekeeping to justify your echochamber sustained viewpoint.

It's why you are hated by the majority of the community.

You claim to speak for all, yet the clear opinion of the majority of TF2 players is you are the worst of the community.

heavy is the least played class in the game and the term rage heavy exists, because the class is fucking boring and the only way you'll pull it out is because you're blinded by someone owning you that you can't play normally

The railgun is better balanced than TF2's sniper.

which classes are allowed 2 and aren't

You didn't play back when the format was 8v8 with 2 of everything. 2 demos locking down all doorways and 2 ubers to keep track of was hell. (This was before you could destroy stickies with hitscan and uber flashing didn't drain extra uber). Other class restrictions were found because stacking 2 was cancer.
Highlander and later Prolander existed to try to normalize class limits to 1 but they're both lame in ther own way

which classes are allowed to be fun and viable and aren't.

That's on valve. Weapon bans are only made because they make some classes too good in exchange for too little, or in ways that they found to be fucking miserable (Ie anything that makes stock scout even stronger in exchange for a weapon slot he already doesn't care about, wrangler existing at all, vaccinator, blast jump mirroring making medic too safe from danger, certain debuffs and buff items being deemed way too strong of an effect that more or less snowballs into a free teamfight win unless both teams run it full time which undermines weapon diversity such as pre-change vita saw, disciplinary action, the throwable jars, etc)

on shit low resolutions monitors using fucking ball mice

people always bitched about sniper players in other games because they were usually seen as wasted player slots, cowards and children who wanna be cool wookie suit guy who run off and sit on a hilltop 10 miles away from the point and occasionally dome someone standing still repairing a tank. tf2 has the opposite problem, where snipers are obnoxious old hats who pick everyone off with no direct means of attacking back (since even in battlefield types you can light up a sniper from long range with a regular rifle and make him fuck off) and because the community has been so absolutely buckbroken by automated bots that spin in circles, most players refuse to believe anyone who isn't tornadoing around while looking up couldn't possibly be using external assistance and that VAC isn't laughable (this correlates with the rise of thirdies on the internet and in MP games, just consoles have had historically a harder time cheating)

the term rage heavy exists

As does rage pyro, rage soldier, rage sniper, rage spy. Rage quit. Etc.

Fuck you're stupid.

I enjoy playing heavy when the conditions are right. I've been doing some real work with the KGB, it's a fun and rewarding item, and I've shocked a lot of people with it.

You admit class restrictions are based on a version of the game vastly different than today's.

Weapon bans are made to reinforce your desired meta. Nothing more.

That's why you have the class restrictions you do, and the item bans you do. That's why you make dishonest claims like having 1 clearly dominant comp (maintained through arbitrary restrictions and bans that you yourself admit are based on outdated experience) is more complex than having multiple comps that are balanced to within player skill differences, and which allow for constant rotations depending on who dies when.

t. Widowmaker stealth botter who tops the board with no sentry with impunity because the other players refuse to believe someone would see a shotgun with infinite ammo and go "i bet i can use that"

I enjoy playing heavy when the conditions are right. I've been doing some real work with the KGB, it's a fun and rewarding item, and I've shocked a lot of people with it.

so you you yourself understand that heavy isn't that fun if you play him the intended way and get butthurt at compfags for doing the same?

equips Danger Shield

walks up to you through the scorch shot and through the flamethrower with more effective health than a Soldier

oneshots you with a bucketed machete crit

Yup, it's sniper time.

Because he's in a game where 90% of the combat is at medium-close range, a godlike sniper can demolish an entire team and still lose all because he can't single handely carry games, he's just unfun as fuck to play against

Anon if you think anyone is going to go scorched earth so they can rediscover the 6s ruleset from scratch with 2025 TF2 instead of the indev TF2 of 2007 you are one dense motherfucker.
Especially since in the official competitive mode, double demo/med DID get run because valve didn't apply any sort of restrictions. On top of the host of other problems with the system such as abandonment rendering matches invalid,, locking performance config settings, and the awful map pool, people got a chance to experience first hand why bans and restrictions were used in the first place.
The offclassing meta is still alive and healthy. For fucks sake there are some people who genuinely make demoknight work in organized play. You are just too entrenched in hating tourneyfags that you have constructed a strawman from 2002 to hate on for all eternity.
Play some pickup games or something, no stakes, just 12 dudes shooting each other over some capture point.

can 1 shot any class, encounters with him are basically hoping his aim sucks. Playing scout to be dodgy isn't an option either seeing how he can 1 shot him with a full charge body shot that charges too quick as well
I think a lot of of the new maps are part of the problem. Community members dont seem to understand how op sniper is. Remember wutville
i would post porn for you but im at work so i aint got shit on me

Even if you play spy correctly, it can take you around a minute to reach and kill the sniper.
During that time it takes you to kill that one sniper, the sniper has killed half of your team.