For three games now both Nero and Vergil have been designed under the mindset of

Question

For three games now both Nero and Vergil have been designed under the mindset of

Dante with less tools to do everything but easier due to having less moves, a stronger gun, snatch/trick to make staying on enemies/keeping them juggled very simple and flashy cutscene moves to do damage without a long combo but have judgement cut/exceed just frames to give you something to sweat with"

But Vergil has a lot more going on then Nero, yamato has about as many moves as red queen but then he has two other weapons. doppleganger and SDT give you all the perks of neros DT (afterimages, big iframes pop that launches enemies, big cutscene attacks) but bigger/better/more and stuff like bringer knuckle is just a more limited version of sword formations.
Besides wasting dev time appealing to fanboys/girls of both characters, what reason is there for a future DMC game to have both of them? is there a way they can flesh Nero out more that isn't just arbitrarily giving him stuff Dante used to be able to do like stop time or surf?

i hope they reboot this shit now that that itsuno fag is gone

They should just remake DMC1 and 2
DMC5's map design and monsters are offensively trash compared to 3 or 4, it's still good but it feels they don't even know what to do with the franchise any more

stop with the fucking remakes

After DMC5 le storm that is approaching and DMC the netflix series do you really want DMC6?

god I fucking hate dmc5

For three games now

Nero has only been in two games. Vergil in four and Dante in six.

Dante with less tools to do everything but easier due to having less moves

They're designed to challenging in different ways. While Dante gives you more options this also means you have to learn much more about his moveset and they're more situational. Nero has less in terms of learning but all his mechanics are leveled so he has various execution barriers to deal with (Exceed, Breakers, DT, Charge Shot, Knuckles).

Vergil has a lot more going on then Nero

Vergil is a frankenstein monster of a character that only has a design philosophy in the loosest sense. He's basically fanservice.

what reason is there for a future DMC game to have both of them?

What reason is there to take them out? Not only do they provide variety and different ways to test the player, they've never impeded Dante being fleshed out more; on the contrary, Dante in DMC5 is the most complex and polished he's ever been, and that's in no small part due to having other characters around. Without Vergil we wouldn't have gotten any form of summoned swords or simultaneous moves; without Nero there would be no bigger focus on air combos and more complex weapon (Cavaliere started as a Nero weapon and it has both of those in spades); even V, as maligned as he is, contributed substantially in the form of stun (which is just his finishing state) for weapons like Balrog, Rawhide and Mirage Edge.

And of course, the same is true for Dante. Nero's summoned wings were an idea they had for SDT, which Vergil only has because of Dante too. Quicksilver (Ragtime) and Doppelganger wouldn't have been in another game if it had just been Dante, since the character has so much going on.

People love to whine about the multiple characters but it's only ever made the games better.

DMC5's map design and monsters are offensively trash compared to 3 or 4

Yeah bro we should go back to running back and forth through the same maps four times and peak enemy design like Soul Eaters and Chimeras.

Or maybe you should kill yourself.

I'd rather a DMC6 directed by Kamiya than another 80$ water-downed remake made for "modern audiences" with entire segments completely removed and characters re-written.

Yeah bro we should go back to running back and forth through the same maps four times and peak enemy design like Soul Eaters and Chimeras.

Unironically, yeah, fuck your adhd "I must keep going forward in a straight line" bullshit
If that's the case then yes I'd like a DMC6 too but you know it's not happening

"I must keep going forward in a straight line"

As opposed to going forwards and then backwards because you had to get a nonsense key? You don't know what level design is.

another secondary doesn't understand DMC's character design

grim!

Stick to God of War, kid

Dante with less tools to do everything but easier

Balrog existing:

Faust existing:

Cavaliere existing:

You can quite literally press any button as Dante for any situation in 5 and its the correct option.

Exceed, Breakers, DT, Charge Shot, Knuckles)

these are all things vergil also has except instead of mashing exceed while fighting and even if you don't get max act you still get 1 chunk of meter you have to actually get the JF JC/beowulf just release timing down

rest of this post is chatGTP talking about why dante is cool so forgive me for not engaging with it

balrog and cavaliere are crazy strong if you know what you're doing but the raw button mashing potential is quite low compared to the other characters who don't have to time gears or swap modes but just do melee strings while holding the gun button down

faust

holy water: the weapon. not worth discussing seriously

Yes, because Vergil is a clusterfuck, he had stuff from everyone. I wrote as much on that same post.

rest of this post is chatGTP talking about why dante is cool

Try reading again.

by this logic nero is a clusterfuck because he is deliberately a bunch of moves from dante + a bunch of moves from vergil + god of war grab button.

The difference is Nero doesn't have mechanics just to have them. Doppelganger is cool but it's very poorly integrated into the character. The ideas of Vergil having Concentration and only SDT are interesting, but they're totally undermined because there's no actual resource management involved once you half understand how Vergil works. World of V is cool in concept, but it's effectively a cut V move that gives you infinite healing and and works wonkily. Beowulf has charges but these only make it stupidly broken, rather than being required. Same with Judgement Cut or the super moves.

Basically Vergil has ideas but they're all undermined by poor balance and, most importantly, a lack of a real design philosophy for what the charater is supposed to play like.

Go back to my previous statement and read the part about Nero again. There's a reason why they mostly removed those types of execution barriers from Dante, while they keep adding them to Nero. One character plays in a way and the other in a different, contrasting way. Vergil plays like nothing in particular.

DMC5's map design and monsters are offensively tras

Play it again, the levels are fantastic

I'm surprised to find someone of similar sentiment to me since when DMCV was being developed almost everyone who had began DMC with 4 or 4SE were hoping to see Nero get more Dante stuff, and I told them they were missing the point that Nero was meant to be Vergil mode from 3SE.
Having two Dantes would just give more reason to hand anything Nero and Vergil have over to Dante since any player comfortable with his style and weapon switch would adapt to using them isolated or in concert easy enough, whereas Nero and Vergil players don't take to using every tool in the box anyway so why bother?
Plus Dante and Vergil have more of a lore springboard with ties to the demon world and human world through Sparda, but Vergil doesn't tend to get involved with things outside his interest and Nero like Lady is just a hunter sticking his head into most things indifferently.

To be clear I had and have nothing against Nero or even the idea of him becoming the new face of DMC, it just wouldn't float to make Nero basically into Dante when he's now definitively Vergil's successor in every sense.

They'd have to introduce a new guy to substitute Dante, but I think most people would just want Dante to be an extra character without a campaign.

I played it 5 times, 3 on release including DMD, the other 2 when SE released
Again, I don't know why it's so hard to understand that it's a good game but worse than the 2 that came before it, it's a fantastic game, just bad compared to 3 or 4

god of war grab button.

You know Capcom makes fighting games, yeah?

You have to have massive nostalgia goggles to say DMC4 is better than DMC5.

Better enemies and better map design, how is this hard to understand? Better aesthetics too but I bet you love the meat corridors at the end of DMC5

if youre going to be a faggot about it they should just revert to having dante only able to use 1 style at a time

There is no good Reddit may cry it’s always been a shit series for people too retarded for Ninja Gaiden or Fighting Games

hurr I le SSS le fwippy zwippy by shooting him in an infinite stun lock

There is no good Reddit may cry it’s always been a shit series for people too retarded for Ninja Gaiden or Fighting Games

hurr I le SSS le fwippy zwippy by shooting him in an infinite stun lock

balrog and cavaliere are crazy strong if you know what you're doing

press triangle nigga, what the fuck are you talking about. You can absolutely button mash your way through everything. Balrog is amazing but its a solve-everything weapon. Its literally the best, most versatile weapon they've ever made in a DMC game. learning the input to switch between kick and fist is like, the lowest barrier entry to any weapon they've made.

other characters who don't have to time gears

YOU MEAN LIKE NERO?

Wtf
Why did my post do this

I like killing the bad guys.

DMC4 enemies are a complete mess, dude. And the levels are pretty and nothing else, they're all filled with bad gimmicks.

shitposter from reddit trying to fit in doesn't know how to post when its not reddit

retarded frog nigger doesn’t know how post timers work

You’re in like every thread with the same file names I couldn’t imagine being a professional faggot and attention whore of this caliber

Get a trip cuck

nice reddit spacing

Balrog is amazing but its a solve-everything weapon. Its literally the best, most versatile weapon they've ever made in a DMC game.

Finally someone who gets it. You can tell how they knew they'd done too much with it from how they didn't bother giving it DT attacks.

Basically Vergil has ideas but they're all undermined by poor balance

nero is literally color up+showdown+breakage spam the character with gerbera being so obviously better then the other arms. even if doppleganger is a bit of an extra mechanic it can enable cool stuff and interacts with his moveset in various ways (like how it will JFJC when you beo release)

The difference is Nero doesn't have mechanics just to have them.

pretty much everything he gets along with DT is pretty redundant

air hike 2 when he already has air taunt/roulette for extra air movement and a fucking grappling hook

snatch 2 which outside of extremely specific situations is literally identical in use and just picking what button you'd rather press

buster but it does fair damage and is free now

bringer knuckle which is just dantes swordmaster summon swords but you have to press the button and when they already fixed the few times nero would want to cancel knockback with hardedge/payline so you mostly use it to do showdown mid combo and an exceed JR to do a bit more damage if you want to piano more buttons after every swing

charge shot is worse dps/stun then color up spam so you only use it as a sometimes move instead of something you actively wanted to throw out often like in dmc4

there's also several arms that are very gimmicky and because of the loadout system actively make nero worse by having them equippied instead of something good, like how helter skelter is "the shield breaker" but its not even in his top 3 best moves for doing this and even if it technically can break urizen crystal well you're going to get slapped out of the air doing it and would rather just use gerbera to have infinite iframes

Better enemies and better map design

too bad rebellion and E&I feel like a foam bat and pieces of paper in terms of damage

you say all this but most nero combo videos literally don't even max-act because the different frame data/hitcount/knockback isn't worth it and causes them to fall out and if you're playing in terms of pure efficiency/dps you're better off using other moves anyway most of the time.
concentration is too easy to build and keep but at least it does actively change how you play a lot when you don't have it after getting hit and is additive (your moves do extra cool things now) instead of subtractive (your moves are worse now that you've spent the meter)

Better enemies and better map design

and much worse dante gameplay design

first game with non linear levels

first game with coop levels

DMC5's map design and monsters are offensively trash

What the fuck did he mean by this

I haven't played it 5 times. I've played it for 6 years non stop front to back, so my playthroughs probably number in the hundreds.

I just discovered secret parts of the levels for the first time this month on my latest playthrough. The levels are vast and complex, I love them.

better map design

gyro blades

dice sections

multiple missions taking place in the same fucking place with little to no difference

the entire Dante section being nothing but the same boring levels but with shitty gimmicks

I wish you were stuck playing dmc 4 forest levels for the rest of your life.

World of V is also shorter than the version that was cut.

Got the V discord riled up

There's six (+ prologue) missions in the inner tree (about two per character) which means it's actually the entire game and bad

gerbera being so obviously better then the other arms

not even remotely true, its convenient, but you literally already have 4 jumps

>first game with non linear levels

not true

first game with coop levels

also not true

You're arguing in total bad faith if you're trying to say Nero is anywhere as unbalanced as Vergil is.

The rest of your post is just creating problems where there are none. Like why is Charge Shot not being the end-all-be-all of his ranged abilities an issue now?

I don't even get what you're trying to argue.

most nero combo videos literally don't even max-act because the different frame data/hitcount/knockback isn't worth it

Combo demos do impractical things? Wow.

if you're playing in terms of pure efficiency/dps you're better off using other moves

Nero's best non-resource DPS is actually JCing his air combo, preferably with Exceed.

The other times the franchise did any of that it was minor gimmicks. It was nothing like Mission 07 actually being two separate levels joined by co-op.

not true

Ok retard, post examples.

also not true

Examples, retard. If you say dmc 3 mission 19 I will healmsplitter your mom

You think having the entirety of DMC3 being playable with couch co-op is somehow more of a "gimmick" than 2-3 single missions letting you watch someone elses downloaded combos, meanwhile they couldn't even do co-op bloody palace?

One is actually a fully fleshed out mechanic that can be activated at any time, and be played locally, anywhere. One is a mechanic for 2-3 levels that was a beta test for Dragon's Dogma 2. Really, truly think about this for a moment and think which one was the actual "gimmick".

DMC3 has non-linear levels and fully local co-op. Yes, you are fucking wrong.

couch coop

le doppelganger

Neck yourself

he unironically, literally doesn't know about doppelgnger

is there a way they can flesh Nero out more that isn't just arbitrarily giving him stuff Dante used to be able to do

I've thought about this. The big appeal of Nero is that he's more streamlined and simple where you don't have to memorize a tonne of inputs, but where you can buff his base attacks, use situational grabs, and now with the Breakers, add a lot of different functions to the circle button.

swappable charge ammo (left directional button)

I think guns overall need to be rethought because currently they're just weak filler between the melee combos, but Nero's one charge shot attack that causes enemies to explode and launch into the air can be super handy. Adding in different effects to those charge shots could be useful. Eg; a cable shot that lassos multiple enemies together, grouping them to the spot. Or one that pins enemies to the spot of a nearby object. One that lights them on fire for an extended period. Etc.

Swappable exceed engines.

Changes what R2 actually does. The current one adds combustion and momentum to you attacks, so what about one that projects a plasma blade that extends your attack range and fires of slash waves with ex-act. Maybe one that coats the blade in demonic parasites that will stick to an enemy and, after a delay, replicate the effect of the connecting attack.

More function for Breakers and the ability to swap out the next one

Breakers are very fun when you pick one up on the fly and have to adapt, but giving every one at least a no lock and a locked on (plus air) options would be great. Also you could have space for ones that are more melee focused, like one that summons a phantom Yamato and allows for katana combos. Generally they should be simple though.

Buster objects

Make Nero, God Hand style, rip stage objects out of the ground as breakable heavy weapons. Rip a lamp post, bash an enemy with it. Rip a boulder, hurl it as a projectile. Rip a door, use it as a shield. Etc.

I think giving ricochet from Donte guns to Nero's br would be a good idea

devs hide an entire secret co-op mechanic, available at any time, that could've gotten them in heavy legal trouble

d-doesn't count, its a gimmick

15 years later the lead dev hypes up the long-awaited return of the series using psuedo co-op as one of the main new features

its available for 2-3 missions and arguably less intuitive than the game they snuck it into

Give Nero his bringer armwings to punch shit. Give him more Buster wrestling moves. More buster inputs and moves.

no dt no coop

available at any time

Profound mental retardation

Yeah. That and piercing rounds that compound damage the more enemies/objects they pass through. I think guns need to be reworked more as enemy positioning tools rather than damage dealers, because as is every character is so mobile that there's little point to guns.

I'd also like them to bring back enemy surf and make it better. Being able to do Nero's divebomb attack straight into an enemy surf, cover some ground, attack off their back, then backflip off and send them hurtling into a wall would be great. It always felt too sticky in 3 even though it was cool as hell.

he can't maintain DT

ignoring super customes

yes, its OBJECTIVELY available at any time. Faggot. Prove me wrong. You can't. You are wrong.

Don't have an internet connection? You can't co-op in DMC5? Don't have an internet connection? You can co-op in DMC3.

Prove me wrong, you can't. You are literally fucking seething because of how wrong you are and can't even admit that you are objectively wrong. Its okay, its not a big deal. But you literally cannot fathom how wrong you are, its cute.

Finish dmd to unlock (((full)))) coop

yes, its OBJECTIVELY available at any time

Giga trans vibes from this post

finish DMD to unlock co-op

Im sorry, are you pretending like this isn't the most kino thing ever? You beat the game on the hardest difficulty and unlock the ability to play with 2 players due to your PERVASIVE skills.

Are you really gonna pretend like this isn't amazing? The game is REWARDING you for being good, by unlocking multiplayer, and you're gonna cry about it? Maybe if DMC5 forced players to beat DMD before letting them look at other players through a glass window you might cum about it.

You are literally fucking seething

xhe says it while being afraid to reply to the post directly

xhe does it 2 times

posts le funny reaction pics and gifs to hide the fact of having room temp iq digits

The irony.

he doesn't know about the unlock everything code

its objectively avaialbe at any time. every post you keep posting proving me even more right, anon. Its OBJECTIVELY available at any time...Im begging you, for your own sake, stop posting while you can. I could go fire up a new fucking copy of DMC3 right now and activate co-op for the entire campaign. You know I'm right. You aren't a real DMC fan.

buzzword as argument

Heavy trans vibes from your post lilbro

I've been replying to you directly all thread, you started ignoring my posts after I blew you the fuck out and proved you wrong. Strange how you only started replying again after being made fun of for it, pussy.

need to unlock dg in 17 out 20 mission

need to beat dmd to unlock not 10 sec coop

need to use a code like retard that he is

>its objectively avaialbe at any time

15 iq moment

I've been replying to you directly all thread

Meds, NOW.

Guys, play nice.

The real question is; is co-op even any good?

Thoughts on DmC's combat? If it's easier to combo everything into everything does it make it less fun?

bro you just need to not use any styles

bro you just need to use the super costume (DMC3 has the shortest lasting DT in the series)

bro you just need to usecthe cheat code

Doppelganger is a meme. And you didn't use its co-op function the PS2. You didn't have any friends to do it with anyway.

It the third bestst in the series.

wow, it's almost like DMC has been shit for a couple decades now and these hacks need to move on instead of beating this IP's dead rotting carcass

I really don't get how Nero can cause so much seethe for some people. Like he's one of the best characters in videogames in DMC5. His only sin is being in the same game as the two coolest motherfuckers ever created.

xhe

opinion discarded nigger

His only sin is being in the same game as the two coolest motherfuckers ever created.

you say this but then say you don't get why he causes seethe, two games in a row where half the games levels and cutscenes are devoted to this guy instead of characters people like more who really do the same things. literally the only thing nero has to make him standout is that he has a GF, which is something dante used to have before itsuno's weird autism infested the series and forced the guy who actually writes the plot of these games to make dante x lady non canon like he wanted for 4/5