Zoomer here, about to play these for the first time

t. zoomer with no spatial awareness or working small motor function

kek, you are an absolute fucking retard

If you have zero nostalgia for these games I really don't think you will enjoy them at all. Imagine mario 64 but way slower and way less platforming

Controls are way too slippery, the physics are inconsistent, and the camera is fucking atrocious. They just slapped the physics of the 2D games on a 3D game and called it a day. Trying to maintain momentum when you are constantly fighting the dogshit camera just doesn't work like it does in 2D where the camera always perfectly follows the action.

Even if the camera wasn't complete dogshit (that's a BIG if), the level designs, enemy design, hazards, and boss designs are all extremely bland and underwhelming, and the game is extremely tedious making you retread levels a half dozen times by kicking you out every star.

not my fault you literally are overwhelmed by having to control a character with full control in 3D space and utilising the movement correctly

They don't.

BASED Zoomer. I kneel.

Holy fucking based and true.

I don't know how Rare made a camera worse than sm64's with 2 years to improve upon it

the controls and character behaviour are exactly not slippery and inconsistent, otherwise high level, consistent speedrunning wouldn't be a thing (don't be a retard and move goalposts towards this topic now).

you are only supposed the move the camera manually sometimes, you don't understand what it was built to do. moreover you have been handholded so badly, you can't confidently make a jump into off-camera eventhough you've seen the immediate layout of your environment just before.

you have no working short term memory, no spatial awareness and you are too bad to be able to engage with controls that require you to get a feel for them and learn how the character behaves under different circumstances of speed, momentum and elevation.
you are quite literally panicking because your character can't turn or stop on a dime exactly and you have to actually calculate and work with momentum within your movement.

you can't do something that children in the 90s could do when for many of them it was their first proper 3D game and an entirely new way to play a game

blud said astrobot

I like Kazooie more than Tooie. Like Mario 64, stages are treated as sandboxes you can explore, unlike more linear experiences like Crash or even Mario Galaxy. Additionally, you don't have to exit the level every time you collect a jigsaw piece, the game's equivalent to stars. Most levels allow for 100% completion upon first entry, there is no "star select". Like Mario 64, there are a wide variety of moves available, though unlike Mario 64, they're not based on the context of your motion, but more button combinations, and they're unlocked throughout the game instead of available at the start. Additionally, the physics are less "broken" that Mario 64, which is the kind of game where you can perpetually gain speed through exploits. Movement is more grounded and you feel more like you're exploring and navigating than propelling yourself forward. As a result, Mario 64 feels faster and more skill-based and focused on precise platforming, while Banjo feels more like an adventure game.

In terms of technology, Banjo-Kazooie is leaps ahead of Mario 64 in every department, I'd argue that even Ocarina of Time doesn't look as good. Where people argue between Kazooie and Tooie is in overall design. Tooie has been described as being more of a Metroidvania type of 3D platformer where most of the worlds are connected to other worlds within those worlds and cannot be completed without visiting later worlds. There's a hub in both games that connects to all worlds, but Tooie's further interconnected and larger worlds lead to the game feeling a bit more bloated and lacking the focus of the original, even if it's technologically superior.

muh speedtrooners

Is it actually impossible for a single Mario 64 fantard to not mention speedtrooning?

Speedrunners play the same game for thousands of fucking hours. They can memorize every single fucking input of the entire game, every minutia of bullshit in the game they have memorized to a tee. It doesn't fucking matter.

you are only supposed the move the camera manually sometimes

The camera is just worthless fucking trash. It's constantly getting stuck on terrain, spazzing out, facing the wrong direction, refusing to go where you want it to. I can deal just about every kind of camera: isometric, top-down, 2D, locked forward, shoulder rotation, fixed angles, tank controls, etc. But an AUTOMATIC camera that just flies all over the place and obscures aspects of the level in a game where movement and jumping are relative to said camera is just inexcusable, especially in a game where maintaining momentum is such a vital aspect.

you have no working short term memory, no spatial awareness and you are too bad to be able to engage with controls that require you to get a feel for them and learn how the character behaves under different circumstances of speed, momentum and elevation.

you are quite literally panicking because your character can't turn or stop on a dime exactly and you have to actually calculate and work with momentum within your movement.

More projection nonsense. Retard, it has nothing to do with difficulty. It's just bad design. I have beat almost every platformer out there. Mario 64 is on the easier side, independent of that, it is just one of the worst of them in terms of design, controls, and level layouts.

you'll drop kazooie at rusty bucket if not gobi
tooie you'll drop after the first world
i miss being a kid when i enjoyed both of these...

Funnily enough I dropped Kazooie at Rusty Bucket Bay when I was a kid. I just played it again and beat it last month, RBB wasn't ultimately that bad with save states for the engine room but Click Clock Wood was complete ass. Then Tooie was a whole game of Click Clock Woods.

I feel like Kazooie is a more polished product than both Tooie and Mario 64.

Like Mario 64, stages are treated as sandboxes you can explore, unlike more linear experiences like Crash or even Mario Galaxy.

uh oh.... that's a huge red flag. Let's keep reading.

a jigsaw piece, the game's equivalent to stars.

another big red flag.

Like Mario 64, there are a wide variety of moves available,

air raid sirens going off now

more button combinations, and they're unlocked throughout the game instead of available at the start.

annnnnnnd dropped before I even started

constantly boots you out after every star and makes you repeat from the beginning of the stage with a tiny stupid piecemeal change

This is the only criticism I agree with. The rest (especially the overblown "absolutely atrocious camera" shit) is a nonissue.

(especially the overblown "absolutely atrocious camera" shit) is a nonissue.

it's literally the worst camera in all of 3D gaming aside from Ape Escape. How the fuck can you just casually dismiss that? Do you not understand how fucking important and fundamental a camera is in a precision platformer of all genres?

Is it actually impossible for a single Mario 64 fantard to not mention speedtrooning?

Wow, a game is so fun that you want to play it multiple times quickly? That's totally unheard of.
Not like people have been doing that since the 90s you fuckin zoomer.

They have fixed camera angles for rooms that are closed in because free cameras in closed spaces doesn't fucking work.

Boot up the SM64 PC port right now and play with the analog camera and tell me it's any better. Right now. I will wait. Google Super Mario 64 Plus, download it, select your rom, and select the free cam in the options.

i haven't finished the game since i was a kid because every replay i drop it as soon as i finish mansion

I don't care. A game shouldn't need a fucking mod to be enjoyable, and even IF the camera was absolutely perfect, the game still has nothing going for it at all.

Why haven't they ported the Rare Replay versions of this to PC? I'd love this on my Deck
Or hell, in something that isn't an Xbox

A game shouldn't need a fucking mod to be enjoyable

Good job completely missing the point. The game is built around the four button camera, so if you got filtered by it because you got it stuck behind shit, that's your fault. You're the one controlling Mario. And if you don't like it, be a zoomer that plays with an analog camera so you can stop being a bitch about it.

and even IF the camera was absolutely perfect, the game still has nothing going for it at all.

Not even being subtle, Bandicootfag.

Again, the physics work great in 2D Mario. I love SMB1-3, even including 2J, because the action is all on screen and the camera follows you perfectly.

But slippery ass controls in a 3D space where you are constantly fighting an automatic camera that refuses to go where you want and having movement relative to that camera while also trying to maintain momentum just doesn't work. Can you still learn the levels and the distances and timings and all that? Of course. But it's not satisfying, it's just frustrating and the camera is fighting you the whole time.

IF the level design, hazards, boss designs, etc. were significantly better, then there might be incentive to overcome the absolute dogshit camera, but none of those are compelling in the slightest, and it's made significantly worse when you have to retread these same areas a half dozen times.

Again, the game has NOTHING going for it. There is not a single aspect of it that is remotely compelling or competent, aside from maybe movement tech, which hardly matters when both camera and level design are straight ass.

This guy really couldn't hold his autistic hatred for a videogame lol

For the love of god, hold down the R button (N64) or either of the bumpers (Xbox) while you're swimming underwater and flying in the sky with Banjo. Fucking makes both PHENOMENALLY better, and they don't tell you about it

Actually Bottles does tell you at the start that holding the R button keeps the camera tracking behind you.

He doesn't tell you about it making you turn sharp tho. People have this misconception that the camera racing to stay directly behind Banjo is why you turn tighter, it's not. The camera already lockes behind him when he's swimming normally unless you stand still

Kazooie is 10/10
Tooie is a zoomer wall

But slippery ass controls in a 3D space [...]

You need to stop playing the game like it's Odyssey. You need to think ahead of what your moves are going to be, like if you double jump and you're about to hit a wall, you can time your wall kick and you will keep momentum as a reward and go further. Turning is wide as fuck in this game, so but if you lightly tilt the stick when he comes to a full stop. Or you can just jump to adjust yourself on a small platform.

IF the level design, hazards, boss designs, etc. were significantly better, then there might be incentive to overcome the absolute dogshit camera

This is just subjective, I think the levels are fun to move around in. The bosses are nothing to write home about I guess.

dogshit camera

Works on my end

Ah yeah. Well, if you ever try using that camera feature you'll see the sharp turn happen.

Kazooie is 10/10

I mean she's cute but I don't think I'd go that far

Turning is wide as fuck in this game, so but if you lightly tilt the stick when he comes to a full stop.

*Turning around is wide as fuck in this game, so if you lightly tilt the stick, you can precisely adjust where Mario is on a platform.
(I edited this sentence too much and butchered it)

Grunty is one sexy witch

Banjo Kazooie

It holds up well and is arguably still one of the only good platformers in 2025. Only flaw is that it's ONLY a platformer and plays pretty slowly.

Tooie is basically Kazooie but 2.5x as big and long for both better and worse. There's a lot of backtracking and meandering around, but you can still see the brilliance behind it. That said playing with the super speed cheat code is basically mandatory if you don't want to blow your brains out for 100% completion.

Kazooie is great, no complaints, you can 100% any world the first time you visit them
Tooie has a bit of a problem with backtracking with abilities you learn in later worlds. still an extremely solid game

dial a combo platforming bullshit

combined with the worst camera known to man

Yeah I'm good bro. Maybe make some interesting levels, hazards, and enemies instead of making the equivalent of a fighting game training mode, giving it the worst camera possible, and saying "LE MAKE YOUR OWN FUN!!" It's more fun to just turn the console off and play Crash or Mario Galaxy

Backtracking is overstated. Tooie's real problem is forcing you to traverse wide open levels so that a good 30% of the game is running between one POI to another. It's really noticeable with Terradactyl Land and Cloud Cuckooland. I also know everyone hates Grunty Industries too, and it is bigger than for its own good, but I liked the concept behind that one so it gets a pass.

It's more fun to just turn the console off and play Crash

yep, there it is

I just cheat and use a turbo controller for Canary Mary without shame. I'm not risking my controller buttons and getting carpal tunnel for epeen points.

First game is pretty great while second game is meh

actually defending speedrunners

There's a point where arguing turns into retardation and you speedran across it.

If you're replaying a game (a platformer about 3D movement no less), why would you go out of your way to go slower?

>Backtracking is overstated

It's not the backtracking between worlds, that's rather creative most of the time. It's the backtracking within worlds whenever you need to use Mumbo, a Humba transformation or split Banjo and Kazooie up. Oftentimes you need to do one of those things after the other for one objective and it's just not fun.

This but the exact opposite

Croc duology.

Man I just replayed Croc 2 on a whim last weekend and that game just completely falls apart after the third world.

Very important misconception you should know. When people say "it's a 3D platformer like Mario :)" they are NOT saying the actual platforming is what's good. Banjo's platforming is slow and clunky because despite what everyone says that not really that much of a platformer.

Banjo-Kazooie is an exploration-collectathon with minor platforming elements. The movement doesn't compare to other platformers at all. But people like Banjo because the point of the game is exploring and the level design in BK is pretty great