Can you accurately judge a game if mods enhance/fix all the parts you didn't like? I'm talking shit like

No, you can judge the mod, just say you're talking about the mod specifically.

One could in theory change anything bad about an awful game and make it good via mods, but that's a different game from the original. It's sort of the equivalent of going "I don't like the burger I got, but I can wipe off the sauce with a napkin, replace the moldy cheese with my own cheese, grab salt from the next table to compensate for the bland flavor," etc.

What about for pic related? It's a fan "remake" that takes Super Mario Bros. Special (an officially licensed sequel for the PC in the same vein as the Lost Levels) and ports it to the NES engine. Most notably, it turns the single screen levels and makes it into a sidescroller like a traditional mario game. The original looks like this, for reference.

youtube.com/watch?v=txcEMPakkPg

But it has all unique levels, some unique backgrounds, new power-ups and enemies, so I think it's worth playing. Should it just be the version we talk about now that the main issues are fixed?

You'd classify it as basically its own thing rather than overwriting the original. Anyone that looks up Special will find out about the original version and then the fan remake generally, or vice versa, so it kinda bears distinguishing.

Nah, it'll always be fair to complain about the fact that things needed to be fixed in the first place, arguably moreso when it's simple and obvious to do so. Even when a newer official version properly supplants the old, it's entirely fair for people to complain about having had to deal with the older one.

You just need to be less insecure about the fact that the games were flawed

How do you "fix" the blue coins?

I sure hope you payed for these games.

Via a mod.
Theres a ton of blue coins that are exclusive to certain missions with no way of telling which ones are exclusive to what. There's also no tracker for them. And there's a save prompt after every single one you collect. And I think one of the blue coins straight up crashes your game.

payed

good morning sir

What the fuck is that?

I paid my ISP provider the monthly cost for the internet I used to download my video games off of the internet. Mostly from myrient.

lol still didn't beat it nigger

It's a real sequel to the original Super Mario Bros. that never gets talked about. Very interesting to look into if you've never heard of it.

mariowiki.com/Super_Mario_Bros._Special

There was a "35th anniversary" remake that released a few years ago that bring it to the SMB engine.

as a product, no. as a game, yes

payed

Do something Rakesh

You didn't beat the game.

having fun > "beating the game properly"

Gameplay altering things like this definitely don't count if speaking about the base game. These should only be employed after you've beat the game.

I don't know man, DK64 is kind of a long game. That character swapping mod seems essential.

If you need a community mod to fix all the jank like every classic PC game of the early 2000s then that's a-ok and I'll probably mention it if I leave a review.
If it's a first run of a game I actually want to play, then I'm not going to run anything but the above type of mods and my judgement is based on that.
There are, however, plenty of games that I have zero interest in running until I see a specific mod for them. Lately my first runs for a lot of games have been multi-game randomizers which always makes for a fun and confusing experience

I don't see where the arguing has to start here?

I think, if anything, I'm hesitant to give games a pass that DO get mods that fix them, because eventually apparently trying to play Mario 64 turns into explaining to one of the very few dumbass kids who bothered to program something, why their super epic improved controls and moveset mod, plays like ass and why replacing every manual camera spot with a version that doesn't work on my controller sucks.
I'm happy if your game gets fixes, I'm happy if you're having fun. I don't really care if Nintendo's vision for Blue Coins was betrayed because obviously it sucked. But don't you dare come after a game I like in the future for its "fixable faults" that I iron out in different ways, yknow? Like if I have to use a tracker for my game, sure, L Game, L design. But if your only ammo against that is one of your Mario games with a mod on top, im just not gonna respect that argument.

It's either case-by-case and we fully communicate, or I'm banning all mods from the discussion, or I'm banning no mods from the discussion. Not many more options that make sense imo, I don't just wanna argue all day.
(Also let's not forget when designers and developers have to make compromises that don't even get play-tested, like that one GBA game where the dev said just to modify some code on emulator or use a flashcart to save, since the function was still on the game and production didn't give them SRAM batteries. And that's assuming said devs were getting insulted in the first place, which again, I did not do)

Make a separate save right after?

And copy it to where? And why?
I you watched any SMS players or grew up with any friends or siblings it should be extremely obvious why this argument is weirdo dogshit that no programmer should cater to. "why would u wanna even skip it?!?!? zuh????" "whyd you force that poor programmer to do that for you when they could have been yapping on v?!?!?"{ like shut the fuck up lmao you're offering nothing

Also,
SMS has gameplay intertwined with these cutscenes too. You would either need a hacked save-file (which WAS the norm in speedrunning for a while. again, look up anything u wanna argue about even vaguely), or you HAVE to watch multiple cutscenes if you ever want to replay levels like Airstrip first visit or the bosses between unlocking stages. No one cares if YOU have 8 minutes to spare, hence, mod made

You'd only be able to do that after you watch them, which kind of defeats the point.

that shit is unskippable.

What version of Mario Sunshine are you playing? I've been able to skip the cutscenes without any mods or anything.

blue coins fix

????? What fix? Noki Bay robbed me of a full, legit 100% playthrough when a single coin didn't register or disappeared.

The intro ones specifically aren't which is what takes a while if you're playing the game again.
There's a mod on Gamebanana that fixes the issues that most people have with blue coins. I believe it's called Super Mario Sunburn

Last time I played Mario Sunshine was when it first came out, what's wrong with blue coins?

Hidden in obscure locations with no tracker (so if you're missing one in a stage, have fun going through the entire stage again figuring out which one is missing and where)

On top of that, many blue coins are exclusive to certain missions (with no indicator of when or why)

Save prompt after every single one you collect for some reason

Also one of the blue coins straight up crashes your game if you grab it in the wrong way

I've always been very interested in enhancement hacks, and find them to be some of the most interesting. The issue though is that there's always the fine line of deciding what's enhancement and what isn't.

romhacking.net/hacks/1988/

Metroid MOTHER enhances a lot of the features of the games, but it also does things like change the visuals. Is that acceptable to be called an improvement? Though I doubt anyone will call Metroid a particularly lovely game in terms of art direction, there's still the argument to be made.

Another example is the DK character swap mod. Whether people like it or not, the character barrels was a very intentional design choice, and changing those fundamentally changes how the game is played.

Personally, I just think it's silly when people make threads complaining about censorship, or about an issue with a game that has been fixed with mods/patches years ago. I think discussion should be around the game as a whole, at its core, instead of dumb shit like camera controls, or artstyle reversions, or whatever. If anything, I think more games should have (good) remasters.

and why replacing every manual camera spot with a version that doesn't work on my controller sucks

Completely agree, the camera in SM64 is a total nonissue. The original camera worked fine, maybe you get a fucked up angle sometimes but it barely affects gameplay.

post filter thinks im spam so I cant respond, sorry.

Mods don't count.

but

No.

But have you considered:
Mods do count.

but

Yes.

It's fine to acknowledge that some mods might address some common problem people have but that doesn't mean the problem isn't there in the first place and therefore should be addressed.
Then you say to play the fan remake version over the original, you wouldn't just talk about the original but never mention you're referencing the fan remake.

Your reply might have too many repeating characters, try shortening any words or phrases or whatever.

Oh yeah, is there a mod to restore that?

Then you say to play the fan remake version over the original, you wouldn't just talk about the original but never mention you're referencing the fan remake.

The whole point of the remake is to fix the blaring issues with the title while retaining the new content. Playing the original will blow your ears out and melt your eyeballs. Plus, the physics are really fucked.
Also, I never say to play the fan remake version over the original. I've never even played it.
Special is the PC game, Special 35th anniversary is the remake.

You remind me of those people who talk about how much they like Sonic 06 but they really just mean the fan remake version. Some people defend 06 because Project 06 is a sort of idealized version that tries to address everything wrong with it. But the fact is that's not Sonic the Hedgehog (2006), it's a fan remake. It's a completely different game made by someone who was never involved in the original and isn't following any kind of official design document.
Plus we could get into this rabbit hole of author intent. Mod the game as much as you want but that's not what the developers made.

There's still a necessity to address which version the person is talking about. Games can change so heavily just between different consoles that people often feel the need to mention which version they played, let alone if they modded it on top. Why wouldn't you address a problem if you had to go out of your way to change it?

Can you accurately judge a game if mods enhance/fix all the parts you didn't like?

No obviously, I don't even know how this is a question
Anyone that genuinely believes you can magically pretend the official og ver of a game is "good" after you mod out everything bad about it is retarded. Games are judged based on how they are when they're officially released because that's the version made by the actual devs

If it's an old game that got a reprint a couple months down the line with some bugfixes/new content, then you judge it by that latest version because it's still officially made by the same devs
If it's a modern game that gets constant patches and updates then you judge it by whatever the most current version of the game is or the latest version from when the devs stopped updating it. Either way, the game is still made by the official devs

Fans, modders, and hackers are not official devs, it doesn't matter how much they "improve" or "fix" the game, you should never judge a game by what people who weren't involved in its original development do

Mario Sunburn fixes the dogshit collision detection of Sunshine, but that doesn't magically mean Sunshine doesn't have dogshit collision, which is a glaring bad point of the game many people complained about when it was released.

If someone who has never played Sonic 06 goes to play P-06, loves it, but then enters discussions about the og Sonic 06 and tries to say "Wow this game is great, why did everyone say 06 is bad? This game controlled great, had awesome physics, and the engine was so stable!". Then he's a legit nigger IQ for being unable to understand why these two games should be treated as separate things

While I generally agree with you, is this much different from arguments about best ports and versions of a game? For example, the Bajo Kazooie Xbox ports which change a lot about the game, from visuals to core game mechanics. Additionally, what about ports where the OG devs weren't involved in any meaningful capacity, are they different from fan mods in that case?

The truth is, nobody knows what the original developers vision is. If they were to remake a game, would they implement these fixes? Would they make the game widescreen, or fix bugs? Why can't fans step in and do this job? Why do we have to judge a game ONLY based on the "original" way to play it? Are we going to judge a car based on it's paint job that can be changed? In fact, developers HAVE went back and fixed their game, like Sonic 3D Blast's original developer doing exactly this.

The blue coin system feels like it was designed by a committee that never talked to each other. Some are hidden in plain sight, others require exact timing, some only appear in specific missions without any indicator, and none of it is tracked outside of the vague numbers per level. It's not even a challenging kind of collectible—it’s just tedious. I remember spending like 3 hours in Pianta Village because a single coin was behind a tree in a mission you only unlock after suffering through the chuckster level. It's such a textbook example of padding disguised as content.

Why do we have to judge a game ONLY based on the "original" way to play it?

Because that's what you paid money for. The only thing I'll compromise on is technical issues, mostly because no piece of software is 100% future proof and I can't expect devs to update it forever so fans stepping in to fix that is fine to assume as "standard". For example the Steam version of Max Payne has an audio issue but there's a fan patch that fixes it. It'd be nice if the problem was fixed at the root but I can't really expect devs to keep up with every single possible bug.
But mods that change the design, including QoL, is completely different. I don't care if the original dev is involved. They are now two different games. With your car analogy, it's less about changing the paint job and more about changing the engine.
Let's take this to its logical conclusion. Do you think Big Rigs is a good game? What if there was a mod that turned it into an outright masterpiece in gaming? It's still a bad game but you can mention how Big Rigs Golden Super Turbo EX DX Revelations Origins Remastermakeboot Edition is great.
Might as well praise Bethesda even though modders are the ones turning their games good.

It's fine as long as you state what mods you have used so others can take your statements into full consideration.
Not that complex.

arguments about best ports and versions of a game?

No, ports are only relevant if they're done by the same devs that made the original game, if it's a port done by a different dev then the game should be judged separately because it's a ver made by different people
For example, Rayman 2 is notorious for having many ports but only a couple of them were done by the official devs so only those ports are considered the "true" version of the game but that doesn't mean some ports are better than others as the PS1 port is outright the worst possible version that has less content than all the others. Rayman fans judge Rayman 2 by the best "official" port which is the DC version and consider the other ports as extras for a 2nd playthrough or something like the PS2 one

ports where the OG devs weren't involved

Treated as different versions of the game as they already are a majority of the time

Why do we have to judge a game ONLY based on the "original" way to play it?

Because that's the version of the game that actually matters
The og ver is what establishes the game in the first place, and the version the majority will see when they try to look for information of a game.

The only time you can consider a new version of a game to be treated the same as the original is if the original devs come back and make a new version of that still original game in the same engine, same codebase, same assets, same everything. If an og dev still has access to the og code and assets, then make a better port with new content, that will be treated the same as the og game. An example of this is Sonic 3D Blast like you mentioned.

Fans/modders/hackers are not the og devs so their version will never be the official one which will always be treated differently

And to add, you can play Mario Sunburn/Eclipse and say "Both Sunburn and Eclipse are better than Sunshine" but you're a genuine retarded nigger IQ if you think you can then magically say "Sunshine doesn't have collision problems and blue coins aren't annoying because of the popup spam"
Sunshine does have these problems, and it will always have these problems but Sunburn and Eclipse don't, but those are fan versions of Sunshine, not the original
Entering discussions about the original version of a game, only to then talk about the fan versions is retarded

There is a lot of text and points here to respond to, so I will give a blanket statement by saying that I generally agree with most of the points here, but I disagree with the point of not being able to enter discussion of the original game if you've only ever played a QOL enhanced version. I don't think that wanting to play a (sometimes objectively) better version means you can't discuss the game at it's core, or you "didn't beat the game". Gmod would be nowhere without it's community. Same with Minecraft. A game CAN be enhanced with mods, and that's part of the gaming experience. A game can have good framework, and sometimes that's good enough. That doesn't mean I'm justifying the game as it was released, but I also don't think that locks me out of any discussion for the game either.

That's not how Sunshine saves work, anon.

you didn't beat the game

You should still address which version you're talking about, or at least be aware of what your version changed. Some games have QoL changes that are practically cheat engines. And even then, it's a massive difference between some official release and a mod. So if someone complains that blue coins are ass you shouldn't act like they aren't because you're playing a version that changes it.
It's like jumping into a Skyrim thread and you keep talking about how you're struggling to beat Bowser in the Eggman mech using the parry mechanic. What, you're not playing the Super Mario 64 mod with these 50 other mods on top? Why wouldn't you assume that?

What really fucks with me is the mission exclusive ones. It's not enough to just spray everything in a level, it's spraying every thing in a level on every mission.

So if someone complains that blue coins are ass you shouldn't act like they aren't because you're playing a version that changes it.

I know I shouldn't...but it's so easy to say "just install a mod to fix it" so we can talk about the actual game design because the game otherwise is fun.

with no tracker

zooom zoom waaaaaa

nooooooo i need the location on a map on screen i don't want to explore the game i just need to collect and complete the consoom!!!

I don't think that wanting to play a (sometimes objectively) better version means you can't discuss the game at it's core, or you "didn't beat the game"

Then you're retarded and you get called out for that for a good reason
There's nothing wrong with wanting to play a fan-enhanced version of a game, and there's nothing wrong with these fan-enhanced versions being better (which they are a majority of the time) but to act like the fan version is the exact same as the original and that the fan version magically removes the original's faults and problems is nigger IQ retarded
You're not even understanding the discussion anymore since you're bringing up a different point entirely with Gmod and Minecraft.

We're NOT talking about whether or not a game CAN be enhanced by mods/fixes
The point you originally made is that you can accurately judge a game if mods fix/enhance everything that's wrong with it.
The answer is no, you cannot, since all those fixes mean a player who's never played the original will never understand or experience the original properly and why people have complaints about the original's flaws and problems in the first place which means they'll enter discussions about the original and get called out for being a retard

Like I said before

you can play Mario Sunburn/Eclipse and say "Both Sunburn and Eclipse are better than Sunshine" but you're a genuine retarded nigger IQ if you think you can then magically say "Sunshine doesn't have collision problems and blue coins aren't annoying because of the popup spam"

Sunshine does have these problems, and it will always have these problems but Sunburn and Eclipse don't, but those are fan versions of Sunshine, not the original

Entering discussions about the original version of a game, only to then talk about the fan versions is retarded

t. someone who hasn't actually collected all the blue coins

If you need a mod to make a game good, then the game isn't good to begin with.

Take Pokemon HGSS or BW.
Main campaign is amazing with difficulty mods but absolutely dogshit as vanilla.

Meanwhile, Pokemon Explorers of Sky is a good game straight from the oven. You don't need any mod to make the game good and enjoyable.

Just install the mod that change the game design so we can talk about how good the game design is

No, that's not a good reasoning. You can say how much you like the other stuff in the game like the jumping or you think FLUDD is great or you love the tropical setting but there's no point in pretending like blue coins weren't poorly thought out and you needed to play a different version to address it. Where does it stop? Have you never said a bad thing about anything because theoretically you can change everything to make it better?

Toaster doesn't work? Just fix it yourself, 10/10

Movie sucks? Just edit it yourself, 10/10

Game bad? Just mod it, 10/10

Censorship and localization reversions

This is ok because the devs aren't responsible for faggot English translators. Needing a retranslation patch doesn't imply anything about the quality of the game they originally made. The rest is you fixing the devs' mistakes.

Who are you to say what's going too far and what isn't?

>Toaster doesn't work? Just fix it yourself, 10/10

If you are somehow capable of modifying your broken toaster to work as a 10/10 toaster...then you made it into a 10/10 toaster. No issue there. Same with video games.

>Movie sucks? Just edit it yourself, 10/10

This is different because movies are considered art. Unless you want to be that guy that says toasters and video games are on the same artistic level as movies.

On the flip side, if you can make a good game out of something with mods, I think that the result should be celebrated in its own right, no?

What is OP even trying to say

you can play Mario Sunburn/Eclipse and say "Both Sunburn and Eclipse are better than Sunshine" but you're a genuine retarded nigger IQ if you think you can then magically say "Sunshine doesn't have collision problems and blue coins aren't annoying because of the popup spam"

Who is even saying this in the thread or disagreeing with your statement?

why don't you ask chatgpt

Unless you want to be that guy that says toasters and video games are on the same artistic level as movies.

It's art or it isn't, editing the movie changes the experience the same way editing a videogame does. On a level artistic consideration goes into toaster production but if you're going to be dumb enough to say what you did about movies and videogames we can just talk about that and forget about the toasters.

I guess we know your answer to the Theseus's Paradox.

This is a 10/10 toaster

I bought it and it burned my house down

Well, you needed to change this and that and that and that and that and that, basically replace every original part then its 10/10

This is different because movies are considered art

Movies have the same artistic merit as games. You can change both to your whim if that's how you feel. Doesn't make it any less retarded to assume everyone else is also doing it, let alone accept that as some sort of standard.

You can accurately judge something based on its mods. I think the comparison you're looking for is Apple vs Android. It's much easier to crack Android and therefore it is a contributing factor into it being the better product.

I feel like things that could be easily fixed shouldn't be factored into active discussion

Fun > artistic integrity

OP seems to be contradicting himself

You can accurately judge something based on its mods.

As in, you can accurately judge the original product based on experiencing only a modded version?

What exactly is the contradiction there? I feel like those are separate points.

This game isn't flawed because a Fan's mod fixes this problem

Retard

If OP cares more about fun than artistic integrity, than why is he saying fixes shouldn't be talked about?

valid points if you never pay

Depends on what needed to be fixed.
Yes, actually. Gonna cry?

It's the mod that is good, not the base game retard.

Depends

How about you give an actual fucking answer?
Can you accurately judge base Super Mario Sunshine based on experiencing only a version where you are not prompted to save after collecting each blue coin? Please give a simple yes or no to this.

Can you accurately judge base Super Mario Sunshine based on experiencing only a version where you are not prompted to save after collecting each blue coin?

No

And can you give me an example where the answer is "yes" since you say it depends?

OP thinks playing a modded/fangame version of a game gives the exact same experience as having played the original despite how much fan content can heavily change the game
OP then thinks he shouldn't be called out/shamed for trying to enter discussions about the original game only to talk about fan/modded versions and act like they're the exact same as the original

No

So then it's not "depends", it's "no". Fuck off, retard.

OP is a faggot then

Can you accurately judge base Super Mario Sunshine based on experiencing only a version where you are not prompted to save after collecting each blue coin?

Yes, vanillacuck. You can. If it's easy to fix then it's not an issue worth discussing. That's like complaining about censorship of that Mai artwork in new Capcom fighting game collection when the fix is literally two clicks away.
How about you do the bare minimum of fixing your shit so you can join discussion of the gameplay mechanics like the rest of us so you don't have to be complaining about save prompts like a consoletar who can't take five seconds to figure out how emulation works.

No, but fuck caring about the vanilla game. It's commonplace in PC gaming to suggest people use certain mods on first playthroughs (some even come with the game on steam or GOG now) and I'd like to see the same attitude with console games. Not like people are able to accurately judge things like performance and controls accurately when emulating anyways

Romhacks and modded games is like 90% of what I play, anon. I'm just not dumb enough to think that a modded experience is the same as a vanilla one.
If the modded and vanilla experience were the same then I wouldn't be playing it modded to begin with, retard.

Wtf I hate paying money on food and gas I'm going to turn that off

Turns it off and enjoys them for free

Joins conversations about how he can afford to have a lot of luxuries on his wage job

Thinks his experience is on the same level for people who didn't flip that switch

This is you

It's commonplace in PC gaming to suggest people use certain mods on first playthroughs

Personally I disagree with this unless it's just about fixing a technical issue that might've not even been there in the original release anyways. Mods should be for subsequent playthroughs.

You're every CEO's wet dream. It's not on them to deliver a good product, it's on you to make it good.

I'm beginning to think that OP actually is in the industry. Only a suit would say "no no, this game is good because mods fixed up the shitty mess actually".

This is a totally sound and equivalent comparison about installing QOL mods.
Been like that for a long ass time

no no, this game is good because mods fixed up the shitty mess actually

Who are you quoting?

Ever heard of paraphrasing, anon? Greentext doesn't have to be word for word.

playing old games with QoL features (romhack)

:|

playing old games with QoL features (new shitty censored overpriced port)

:O

You were "paraphrasing" an argument that I never made in quotation marks. I can though, accurately judge a base game based on a QOL mod that I installed. That's all.

I can though, accurately judge a base game based on a QOL mod that I installed.

So you're saying "no no, this game is good because mods fixed up the shitty mess actually". Got it.

If you install a QoL mod then the game is a different experience from vanilla, dumbass. That's usually the best thing to do but just clarify in discussions that you are playing it with these sorts of mods. People playing on vanilla should specify as well that they're playing on vanilla in discussions since different gameplay experiences are possible.
Being retarded is discussing your experience with a modded version of a game and acting like that's representative of the vanilla game experience. Obviously fucking not.

If you do enough mental gymnastics and backpedaling you can come to that conclusion that I said that, sure.

That is literally what you are saying.

Yeah, it's in the Dreamcast Conversion mod by PkR
moddb.com/mods/sadx-dreamcast-conversion

Can you accurately judge a game if mods enhance/fix all the parts you didn't like?

My answer is yes. Your answer is no, I assume. Agree to disagree?

Either this guy is not OP or OP had a mental breakdown and turned to shitposting to try and save face.

You might as well just say all games are 10/10 since you can just mod anything about a game.

It's not the base game anymore then. You can accurately judge the enhanced version but you can't judge the base version you never fucking played and is markedly different.

fun is quite subjective but yes, fun > artistic integrity
that said if it's about judging a game then you can't factor in mods, though I'll let FPS patches slide
decensoring is just restoring things to how they're supposed to be anyway

If a game's problems can be so easily fixed then I'll judge it even more harshly for not doing it

Yes, I should separate myself from the discussion because I made the game, with the intention of having fun, more fun. Like installing a widescreen/fps patch and making blue coins more fun to collect. That makes sense.
Better yet, you should just install RetroAchievements so the whole world can see how you used a guide to finish Mario Sunshine. Because looking up the Blue Coins online is how you were meant to complete the game, right?

zooom zoom

no shit retard, its a gamecube game

As long as you acknowledge that your experience with mods isn't a proper reflection of what playing the vanilla game feels like if you never played the vanilla game, then yes we can agree to disagree.

Alright since it seems like the entire thread has BTFO'd OP enough let's change topics because I'm getting bored watching OP continually embarrass himself with all the anons and it stopped being funny

This is now an early SSSATURDAY thread
WATAYA:

PLAYAN

WATCHAN

LISTENAN

READAN

EATAN

DRINKAN

FAPPAN

FEELAN

The oldest zoom zooms were 5 years old when the GameCube released. Zoomers consoles start at the Wii.

Yes, I should separate myself from the discussion because I made the game, with the intention of having fun, more fun. Like installing a widescreen/fps patch and making blue coins more fun to collect. That makes sense.

Concession accepted.

I can though. And here's my judgement:
Mario Sunshine is a good game.

Okay. Play the vanilla version and get back to me then. No excuses will be accepted.

Already did. No reason to go back.

I don't have an argument so let me try to derail the thread

Concession accepted.

Then why are you trying to say that your experiences with mods should count with vanilla players?

Zoomers from low-budget households likely had gamecubes because consoles a generation behind used to be significantly cheaper. I was born in '92 and much of my gaming during childhood was on the SNES. By the time I was able to hold a controller, N64 was out and while I played a lot of N64 my core memories were on older SNES titles. I won't say that the core audience of Gamecube was zoomers but to say that zoomers didn't grow up with the gamecube available to them is retarded. Households that enjoy vidya likely had the previous console and generations growing up had those. I played a shitton of NES as well growing up because again, that shit was mad cheap for my parents to buy used.

Because playing with QOL shit is same core experience, but better. I would easily recommend that to anyone who wants to play the game. If anything that would make discussion better.

I can though

If you played vanilla then I agree with you. If you didn't play that version and you think you can judge something you never touched then I'm sorry for your delusion.

Then you should be discussing how the mod is good and recommending it. Playing it off that it's the same experience is retarded, because it's not the same experience.

same

but better

Better =/= same.

I played both vanilla on console when I was young and the game remastered on PC. I would say I had around the same experience, but it was less tedious with mods on PC. That's why I think you're allowed to join legitimate discussion about a game even if you've only experienced a better version. I don't know why that's so hard to agree with.

>same

It is a similar core experience but with improvements. That's why you can still join discussion on the original game. Nobody is going to say "you didn't beat the game" if you played only the Super Mario All-Stars version of SMB3.

That's why you can still join discussion on the original game

Sure but specify that you never played vanilla and played with XYZ mods. Because your gameplay experience was NOT the vanilla one. Don't lie and pretend that you can judge the base game when you never played the base game.

Because certain games can feel like an absolute slog but be a much better experience with QOL changes, you are just citng one example. Another example is if you played DK64 with a QOL change to switch out a Kong whenever you wanted, and that was your first experience playing it, then you had a vastly different experience from the vanilla version despite changing one small thing, and you should not discuss with anons on what the levels feel like.

I agree with that.

>Censorship and localization reversions

This is the exact opposite of that, retard. The censorship/localization is all about people "fixing" parts they didn't like

I can't speak for that mod personally but from what I understand it vastly changes how the game is played, no? Much more of a QOL thing and more "seperate romhack" territory

Are you or someone else new in the reply chain.

*much less of a QOL thing

If you never played a vanilla game, it can be difficult to discern how much a QOL mod changed your experience. Even just having mods that changes the atmosphere can heavily influence your perception of a game.

Then you admit that what you wrote in the OP is wrong you retard

no, you aren't experiencing the actual game

Im starting to look like that guy but without the cigs.
I still need an aggro shirt though.

Yes.
Nope. You shouldn't complain about QOL shit you can easily fix. Just fix it so you can have fun and stop complaining about it like a bitch.

I don't know what your definition for QoL is but I'd say it falls under QoL. Technically it just cuts down on backtracking. It's not adding new content that wasn't there before.

Can you accurately judge a game if mods enhance/fix all the parts you didn't like

Yes, because you judge the game without any mods separately from a modded experience.

I mean, they lay out pretty well in the mod what it changes. It's up to the user that detracts too much from the experience.

You replied to "can you accurately judge base sunshine if you only played a QoL modded version" with yes. And now you agree with the statement "don't lie and pretend that you can judge the base game when you never played the base game."
These are contradictory.

Cuts down on backtracking, and you don't have to keep a mental note of stuff that you saw with a different Kong, and potentially get lost and wonder where that thing was as a result. The experience wouldn't be the same at all, but OP is trying to argue it's the same thing since it's an issue that can easily be fixed.

OP is trying to argue it's the same thing since it's an issue that can easily be fixed.

Lol, no I'm not. Stop paraphrasing. It's borderline a romhack.

Anon, you have no actual frame of reference on how much of an improvement it is if you never played the vanilla first. You're adding sugar to your coffee and saying that you know how bitter the original drink is without so much as a sip.

Oh no, I was only agreeing with the beginning of that reply.

Sure but specify that you never played vanilla and played with XYZ mods.

Borderline a romhack on one single QoL change. You're just now realizing how retarded your argument is, but you won't admit it.

Hey, this coffee is pretty good.

Well actually I added sugar to it so you have no reference to how bad the original coffee is

You're one of those people, huh.

A game should only be judged by how it was when it first released. If we only judged games by how they are perfected with mods, then there would be no bad games.

If we only judged games by how they are perfected with mods, then there would be no bad games.

the horror

The coffee with the sugar you added is good. You can't judge the black coffee based on what you added, and yes, the black coffee is shit.

Or in other words, "the coffee is good".

You added extra ingredients, it's not even a similar taste you baboon.

The extra ingredients made the coffee better in this scenario. You're not exiled from coffee discussion if you don't drink straight black coffee.

You're exiled from black coffee discussion.

I don't see any black coffee moderators to take me out of the discussion. If anything all black coffee drinkers should have some sugar to make their coffee even better so they stop whining about how bad it tastes.

I personally add garlic to my coffee and talk about the nice and savory experience to people without elaborating that I added garlic to it.

If you start saying that coffee usually tastes pungent and garlicky, you changed the coffee too much from the core experience and that's on you for adding garlic.

It's okay, it was only one change. I should be able to discuss coffee with people despite this being my only frame of reference.

Sugar was a quality of life addition to make the coffee taste better. Garlic basically made it into a different drink.

Garlic is a quality of life addition for me because I was aiming for something more savory than sweet. Neither of our drinks are bitter like the black coffee, so why does it matter?

Nah you can only accurately judge a game based on what the developers released. Just because fan hacks can fix some of these problems doesn't make the original release better.

Games need to have the original context of the game in mind so you can understand WHY the reviews at the time hated the games. Otherwise you get idiots that are like "X is a misunderstood masterpiece".

I dont see what the problem with acknowledging a game and its issues and then saying that mods fixes them is.

You can add garlic, sugar, whatever. I don't add sugar nor garlic to my coffee. I drink it out of a fancy ceramic coffee cup. It makes the experience way better than drinking it out of a plastic cup.

I drink mine from a shoe right after a gymnast went through a grueling and sweaty workout. Adds a bit of texture.

As long as you enjoyed drinking it, I will be happy to discuss coffee with you.

Do you care for a taste of my coffee blend?

Well, what exactly about the taste from your blend do you enjoy?

I like how the garlic and the sweat of a sock blend in perfect harmony with a subtle taste from the coffee beans. It makes me feel alive and ready to start my day.

Is that what the original coffee tasted like?

Some prefer the coffee from in a ceramic mug, some in the cup it originally came with, and yours in a sweaty shoe. It tastes mostly the same across the board - it's the same coffee blend. Some would prefer the mug because of the convenience and presentation, others might prefer the original cup, but it's got some microplastics and no handle. And you add garlic to it and drink it out of a shoe.

But at the end of the day, it's the same damn coffee.

Now would you like a glass of coffee from a ceramic mug?

I don't need to judge a game. I judge the amount of fun I had with it. If modding can improve that I will always do it because getting the maximum amount of fun out of my free time is my priority.